Uh Oh! II

[JamesTXSD]

Popular Catamaran builder, TWIN VEE, is now officially out of business...
...

Makes one wonder how much longer C-Dory will survive in this economic climate, where purchases of non-essentials, such as RV's and boats, have been slaughtered...

Mr. Toland sure picked a bad time to resurrect his boat factory...

We had a neighbor who owned a Twin Vee. It was a neat boat, but at 26', it was nowhere near the TomCat in functionality. I have no idea what C-Dory's current financial status might be, but they build a remarkable boat. When you are a niche builder, you can survive when the general economy tanks... or when the rest of the industry suffers. The trick, of course, is to produce what you can sell. If C-Dory were to try to produce 100 boats per month, there may not be a market for that many... but control costs and find a good balance of production with the demand and there is no reason that C-Dory should necessarily follow the others down the path to oblivion. Truly, there isn't anything else on the market like these boats... and on the flip side of that, there may not be room for anyone else in that niche.

Ranger Tugs is a good example of a niche boat that continues to sell in an otherwise dismal market.

While there is a Toland involved with the boat being produced by our own Oldgrowth Dave, I'm not aware of any Toland involvement with the current C-Dory operation.

Looking at the boat business right now, I'm thinking it would be MUCH better to have my money in C-Dory than Brunswick.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

 

[Seagem]

Popular Catamaran builder, TWIN VEE, is now officially out of business...
...

Makes one wonder how much longer C-Dory will survive in this economic climate, where purchases of non-essentials, such as RV's and boats, have been slaughtered...

Mr. Toland sure picked a bad time to resurrect his boat factory...

We had a neighbor who owned a Twin Vee. It was a neat boat, but at 26', it was nowhere near the TomCat in functionality. I have no idea what C-Dory's current financial status might be, but they build a remarkable boat. When you are a niche builder, you can survive when the general economy tanks... or when the rest of the industry suffers. The trick, of course, is to produce what you can sell. If C-Dory were to try to produce 100 boats per month, there may not be a market for that many... but control costs and find a good balance of production with the demand and there is no reason that C-Dory should necessarily follow the others down the path to oblivion. Truly, there isn't anything else on the market like these boats... and on the flip side of that, there may not be room for anyone else in that niche.

Ranger Tugs is a good example of a niche boat that continues to sell in an otherwise dismal market.

While there is a Toland involved with the boat being produced by our own Oldgrowth Dave, I'm not aware of any Toland involvement with the current C-Dory operation.

Looking at the boat business right now, I'm thinking it would be MUCH better to have my money in C-Dory than Brunswick.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

The Cape Cruiser/Venture 23 is a remarkable compromise in a pocket cruiser, BUT the Tomcat is not, as it's bridge deck is far too low and blunt towards the bows, which cause pounding...

Even the founder of Glacier Bay has now moved to designs with a much higher bridge deck in his new Aspen series, after learning his lessons: see last post in thread linked below...

The ChilKat 30 is a much improved Tomcat doing 3 mpg at 30 knots, as a result of its 18 to 1 fineness ratio but its production run is also ending, as a result of the recession...

Here is a thread I have recently started on the Boat Designs Website to study the various designs available in pocket cruising cats and their performance:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-d ... 25745.html

I mentioned Twin Vee because it was probably one of the largest builder of small cats in the US: their boats were very popular and if Twin Vee failed, then other small boat builders won't be far behind in my view...

Mr. Toland plans to produce a new 20 footer that has nothing to do with C-Dory and I believe the timing is unfortunate if he proceeds with it...

http://tolandmarine.com/drawings.htm[/img]

I'm willing to bet that Brunswick/Bayliner/Mercury will be bankrupt by the end of 2009, unless a White Knight with deep pockets steps in and takes over...

 

[JamesTXSD]

Seagem,

I'm not sure what your point is... because Twin Vee can't make it, no other boat builder is going to? Take into consideration the demand and economy of scale (or the converse: what happens to boat builders who can't downsize?).

And regarding the TomCat. I have to say that you must not have much time on one - I find it to be a very impressive boat... smooth and fast. If the bridgedeck were built any higher, the cabin would have to be lower or have problems with more windage and being top heavy. As has been said here almost daily, all boats are a compromise... and in my opinion, the TomCat is an outstanding balance of size, weight, performance, and ride. And that's coming from a guy who owns a CD-25, not a TomCat. I'm sure you'll hear from some TC255 owners who will confirm what I am saying.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it seems to me that you have been spreading the gospel of gloom and doom since signing on here. The very fact that C-Dory is NOT Brunswick may be what works in their favor. They make practical, affordable, functional trailerable boats; as long as they can match their production with the demand, while keeping control of costs, they are actually in a better position than many boatmakers. At one time, C-Dory produced about 6 boats per month; the recent previous owners scaled that up considerably. If it can be scaled back, there is no reason it can't remain viable. I have a friend who is a boat builder on a very small scale... he builds about 2 boats per year and is profitable. Another friend of ours builds a couple boats per month and is profitable. Bigger (with huge production facilities) isn't a good place to be with the current economy.

Mr. Toland and our buddy Dave may have positioned themselves in a good spot with a good design. Since neither you nor I know their break-even point, I can't speculate. But I do know Dave, and I know he is a smart businessman.

And feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't believe the Glacier Bay is a true planing hull, like the TomCat. A change to their design does not imply any inherent problem with the TomCat hull design.

No disrespect meant. Not knowing your hands-on experience with any of the C-Dory products and your recent appearance here, I wanted to express a differing viewpoint.

Respectfully,
Jim B.

 

[Larry H]

Seagem,

Welcome to the C-Brats!!

If you are going to be a 'regular' here, it would be nice if you filled out your profile, and signed your posts (just your first name is fine). We are a friendly bunch and would like to get to know you.

Thanks,

 

[Seagem]

Seagem,

I'm not sure what your point is... because Twin Vee can't make it, no other boat builder is going to? Take into consideration the demand and economy of scale (or the converse: what happens to boat builders who can't downsize?).

And regarding the TomCat. I have to say that you must not have much time on one - I find it to be a very impressive boat... smooth and fast. If the bridgedeck were built any higher, the cabin would have to be lower or have problems with more windage and being top heavy. As has been said here almost daily, all boats are a compromise... and in my opinion, the TomCat is an outstanding balance of size, weight, performance, and ride. And that's coming from a guy who owns a CD-25, not a TomCat. I'm sure you'll hear from some TC255 owners who will confirm what I am saying.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it seems to me that you have been spreading the gospel of gloom and doom since signing on here. The very fact that C-Dory is NOT Brunswick may be what works in their favor. They make practical, affordable, functional trailerable boats; as long as they can match their production with the demand, while keeping control of costs, they are actually in a better position than many boatmakers. At one time, C-Dory produced about 6 boats per month; the recent previous owners scaled that up considerably. If it can be scaled back, there is no reason it can't remain viable. I have a friend who is a boat builder on a very small scale... he builds about 2 boats per year and is profitable. Another friend of ours builds a couple boats per month and is profitable. Bigger (with huge production facilities) isn't a good place to be with the current economy.

Mr. Toland and our buddy Dave may have positioned themselves in a good spot with a good design. Since neither you nor I know their break-even point, I can't speculate. But I do know Dave, and I know he is a smart businessman.

And feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't believe the Glacier Bay is a true planing hull, like the TomCat. A change to their design does not imply any inherent problem with the TomCat hull design.

No disrespect meant. Not knowing your hands-on experience with any of the C-Dory products and your recent appearance here, I wanted to express a differing viewpoint.

Respectfully,
Jim B.

Most small cat designs are semi-displacement, simply because there is not enough planing surface to make them true planing hulls...

I have some experience in larger cats, as I was associated with and own the design and molds of a cruising offshore 46' catamaran: I'll post a couple pics shortly...

My first choice for a pocket catamaran hull design would be the ChilKat 30 with 16" more bridge deck clearance: the topsides will be higher but the boat a lot more seaworthy in bad weather, when it cannot get on the plane...

I hope C-Dory continues to operate profitably till the end of times, however, being a keen student of macroeconomics and a trader of financial instruments, I know this recession - no matter what Obama does - will turn into a long lasting fully fledged depression that will deeply affect most discretionary spending...

Who is forewarned is forearmed: many don't pay attention to this sort of things until it's too late, so I hope I have helped in this regard...

Since you know the builder of C-Dory, I'm sure you can find out what the order book looks like for the rest of 2009 and let's hope it's doing better than the Chilkat...

 

[JamesTXSD]

Seagem,

Methinks you read too much into what I wrote. I do not personally know the current owners of C-Dory. I have no "in" to their books, nor the desire to pursue that information.

I see on the following forum...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multih ... 25620.html

... that you have made quite an impression. Seems that you have a plan to produce a "recession proof" 25 foot cruising cat. Also seems that you have your detractors there, as well.

By your own words, those molds of the 46' offshore cat are "gathering dust." On that forum, you also state that your location is the Cayman Islands. If you are not a current resident of the US, what's the point of your comments regarding our economy?

Since we don't know each other, and anyone can say anything on the internet, let me state that my experience has shown that when one needs to state that they are "a keen student" of any science or art, it usually means that they are a legend in their own mind.

I've seen this in many forums over the years: a self-appointed "expert" comes in and stirs things up; not sure if it's for their own amusement or if they really believe all they write about themselves... this will be my last response to you, so no need to respond further to me. I've been around the block a time or two on this forum and don't feel the need to be brought into anyone's agenda; the good folks here deserve better than that.

Sincerely,
Jim B.

 

[El and Bill]

I'd like to suggest that this 'Uh Oh' thread continue only with a discussion of how we perceive the economy, its effects on us and our plans on how we will use our C-Dory boats. My intention with this thread, and one that most contributors have continued, is not to evaluate hulls or the economics of the C-Dory company, but simply to share ideas about the current financial environment. I'd hate to have the thread pulled because we have strayed too far off subject or become too heated, so please begin another thread to discuss hull designs of catamarans, if you wish.

 

[Seagem]

Seagem, If you are not a current resident of the US, what's the point of your comments regarding our economy?

Since we don't know each other, and anyone can say anything on the internet, let me state that my experience has shown that when one needs to state that they are "a keen student" of any science or art, it usually means that they are a legend in their own mind.

I've seen this in many forums over the years: a self-appointed "expert" comes in and stirs things up; not sure if it's for their own amusement or if they really believe all they write about themselves...

Sincerely,
Jim B.

The economy of the US affects the rest of the world's economy, certainly the economy of where I live, hence, my "keen interest": if one can predict well ahead of time the direction of the economy, one can then sell real estate properties and buy Gold, for instance...

The other advantage is that I have a totally unbiased view, unaffected by culture, 'patriotism' or the media propaganda...

Finally, I have not made any personal comments about you and find it amusing that you would resort to personal innuendo, simply because you don't like the content of my posts...

I'd like to suggest that this 'Uh Oh' thread continue only with a discussion of how we perceive the economy, its effects on us and our plans on how we will use our C-Dory boats. My intention with this thread, and one that most contributors have continued, is not to evaluate hulls or the economics of the C-Dory company, but simply to share ideas about the current financial environment. I'd hate to have the thread pulled because we have strayed too far off subject or become too heated, so please begin another thread to discuss hull designs of catamarans, if you wish.

Agreed...

However, this is a boating forum and the deterioration of the US economy will greatly affect the boat manufacturing industry and that should be part of the topic. In fact, unless the topic somehow relates to boats, it would make little sense...

Brunswick to idle Sea Ray boat plant, cut jobs...

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/01/ ... 85159.html

 

[Sea Wolf]

Interesting to see how Brunswick's stock has done in the past year, probably reflecting the recreational industry's downturn from limited discretionary income:

(Brunswick owns Sea Ray, Boston Whaler, Bayliner, Maxum, Mercury/Mercruiser, Mastercraft, Bertram, Albermarle, and many others.)

Brunswick Corp

Joe. :disgust

 

[Will-C]

Hello,
As a lurker with intention to buy in 09 here's my take on things. C-Dory's line of boats being light and fuel efficient are about as close as you can get to the car comparison of a Toyota Prius. Their resale value is unparalled in the industry. They hold up very well provided the previous owners did nothing real stupid to them. There are boats built in the 80's still roaming around running strong. They have a terrific owners group and most of the C-Dory owners actually use their boats as seen everywhere on this site. The dealers are supportive and willing to help most anyone as long as the don't get too obnoxious. So a Bayliner Brunswick thing comarison I hope is just whacky. As far as the economy goes if you want to get cash spent quick increase welfare checks. The money will be better spent then giving it to the failed banks as they probably won't have enough to buy jet aircraft. So I'm thinking instead of depleting any of my meager reserve retirement money I would be helping the country out by finiancing the boat and if the world does come to and end I can either let it be covered with volcanic ash or just default on the loan and move to Mexico or Ecuador if things get real bad. I just wondered if I ought to go with surge brakes or electric over hydraulic brakes on the trailer before the world comes to an end?
D.D.

 

[dotnmarty]

D.D.-Man, I like your style. :wink:
:thup

MartyP

 

[marvin4239]

Dave that's the best solution I've heard. I'd go with no brakes don't wanna be stopping to often in Mexico.

 

[marvin4239]

Here's a refreshing story for those of us "Made In America" fanatics. I'm pasting this story that was sent to me via e-mail. I don't really know it's original source. I realize we have to make changes in this global economy we are in but we are in the middle of and economic war with China. I'd much rather see America send economic aide to China rather than borrow money from them.

Hallelujah!!
U.S. Capitol Gift Shop Bans China Trinkets
Until further notice, the words “Made in China” will no longer exist on merchandise sold in the main gift shop located on the House side of the U.S. Capitol.

The Politico newspaper reports Rep. Robert Brady (D-PA) has banned the Capitol Visitor Center from selling plastic Statues of Freedom and other souvenirs not made in the U.S.

“I feel very strongly that souvenirs sold in House gift shops should be produced by U.S. companies," said Brady. “At a time when our economy is struggling and U.S. companies are being forced to lay off workers, I believe that every effort should be made to support U.S. industry. The idea that the Capitol's main gift shop could be selling a model of our Statue of Freedom that is manufactured in China, does a disservice to the millions of American workers who are losing their jobs and their ability to support their families.”

Brady is the chairman of the House Administration panel, which oversees all House operations. The congressman says his committee is working with the visitor center to return the $104,000 worth of souvenirs already purchased and to recover their full cost.

 

[El and Bill]

Dave -

Instead of Mexico, we have an alternative suggestion. A bunch of us know a beautiful cove, Oak Harbor, in Lake Powell where we could all anchor to a sandy island, share the fish we catch, swim in the clear warm (most of the year) water, and swap boating tales :wink:.

 

[flrockytop]

Dave -

Instead of Mexico, we have an alternative suggestion. A bunch of us know a beautiful cove, Oak Harbor, in Lake Powell where we could all anchor to a sandy island, share the fish we catch, swim in the clear warm (most of the year) water, and swap boating tales :wink:.

You can count me in IF CAVU Ken agrees to bring his smoked salmon. :smiled

Roger

 

[Capital Sea]

I look at the C-Dory as an investment and even as times get tough, the boat is worth improving so we can better enjoy it. Sure it may not hold its value quite as well, but will do so far better than the $100K+ need a slip boats out there.
As for C-Dory the company, lack of financing may cause the doors to close, but the moment that issue is solved they will ramp back up and in the mean time, the short supply will push up the value of our boats.

 

[marvin4239]

You know this economic slump may have a positive affect for C-Dory's future. I don't think I've spent anytime at a marina when I wasn't approached by someone in a larger vessel discussing downsizing. This board itself is full of members who have downsized. Who knows the recession could be the goose that laid the golden egg for C-Dory. Lets hope thats the case.

 

[Wefings]

Dave said "The dealers are supportive and willing to help most anyone as long as the don't get too obnoxious."

We even support obnoxious ones...............
Marc

 

[Sea Wolf]

You know this economic slump may have a positive affect for C-Dory's future. I don't think I've spent anytime at a marina when I wasn't approached by someone in a larger vessel discussing downsizing. This board itself is full of members who have downsized. Who knows the recession could be the goose that laid the golden egg for C-Dory. Lets hope thats the case.

Marvin-

Nice thought!

The biggest hold-up in this down-sizing process, however, is that the big boat owner usually feels that they must sell the big one as part of the downward move, and that, in itself, is very difficult without taking a beating in this present market.

I'm sure we'll see some of it, though!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[marvin4239]

Yeah Joe those bigger boats are hard to get rid of these days. On the other hand last fall I was at a Marina in South Port NC when a really nice Nordic Tug came in. There was about a 25 mph wind hitting him beam side and he had a heck of a time negotiating the marina and into a slip. After he finally got tied up with the help of four dock hands he came over and was asking about my C-Dory. I think at that moment he would have traded.

Mark that's great news in case I ever get 3 footitus I know i'll be welcome