twin engines vs single engine and trim tabs

F

FIMAN1

New member
I'm in the market for a C Dory and have found 2 boats at the same price. one is a 2001 with twin 40hp 1800 hrs the other is a single 90 hp 700 hrs and has trim tabs and windlass. which boat would some of your experts recommend. that being said both are in good condition and the engines have been serviced.
Thanks in advance for your help
 
My personal preference is the single engine with 700 hours. You don't tell us the brands and years of the 90. A Permatrim on the C Dory I consider essential for the best ride--so with the 40's you would have to buy 2 Permatrims. I have had Windlasses on all of my C Dorys--Worthwhile addition.

1800 hours, to me, is getting toward the end of the line--some of the well maintained engines have lasted much longer, but that is the exception. Some C Dory owners have gotten over 2000 hours...but again, that is the exception.

Pre 2007 90's had carburetors, 2007 on injected, and much larger alternators.

I have always used my dinghy motor as a kicker. The 3.5 hp two stoke has been enough to get out of trouble--But some prefer a larger kicker. (I have only had one outboard problem I could not remedy on the water. That was a bad oil pump on a VOR on a Evinrude Fitch--I get home in "limp home mode"--it was about the same speed as the kicker would have been.
 
This would be a matter of individual personal preference. Some would put the twin factor above all else (Harvey!), and others would prefer the single, especially with only 700 hrs vs. 1800 and the boat having trim tabs and a windlass. A more detailed description and photos of the two would reveal more items to tip the scale.

Some offshore folks would prefer the twins, others would prefer the single, especially considering a kicker can be added for slow trolling.

Electronics and other accessories/options/ customizations might be an important difference to tip the scale, as noted above.

Bottom paint, boat color, motor brand, age of boat and components, trailer (single vs. tandem axle/brand/ paint vs.galvanized), condition of upholstery, etc. could also play into the decision.

This choice would make a wonderful "POLL" for our site, if we could get equally full descriptions and photos of both boats.

ONE IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION:
Get as much of the right kind of boat including all the accessories as you can in your original purchase as you possibly can. New / replacement / or additional equipment costs a lot more bought piece by piece than included on a combination purchase of a complete boat/motor/trailer purchase! Pencil out the total long term cost to get from any or each boat to what you eventually want.

ANOTHER CONSIDERATION: Don't get into a hurry to get a boat so much that you settle for one that's not really what you want, you'll soon see another one after you bought one that you'd wished you'd waited for. Be patient, it pays!

ALSO: If I were going to buy another C-Dory, I'd wait not only for the one that had all the equipment that I wanted, but I'd wait for one from a member here that I knew was thoroughly knowledgeable of C-Dorys, a diligent upkeeper of the boat, a craftsman, and a boat that had some customizations that I really wanted. Tall order! But they're available here and there. Worth waiting for!

FINALLY: Have your money or financing ready. Really good deals go fast. Don't be afraid to travel! You can save a great deal of money and time by thinking all this out beforehand, then waiting for the right opportunity to present itself!

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
These both look like nice boats with their positive points.

I see where one is listed at $39,900, but the other is only photos without a price as far as I can tell.

Individual choice could make the difference if the prices are very similar, but I'd be inclined to get the single Honda with only 640 hours on it as opposed to the twins with 1800. Somewhere around 2000 hours is the normal expectation for these motors, although they can last much longer if used and serviced regularly. (Bill and El had a 40 hp Honda (twin) fail at about 2100 hours when they were on their many years tour on the water of the entire U.S., IIRC.).

The 640 hr motor has 2/3rds of its life left, and the pair of 40's about 1/10th by strict mathematical projection, assuming the 2000 hr expected lifespan. I'm not familiar with present day engine prices, but at $12,000 -$14,000 (or whatever) for replacements (probably more for a set of twins than a single), I'm definitely going to favor the single and hope to have more money left in my future wallet for boat customizations and improvements rather than spending it on new engine(s).

(Looked at and projected harshly, that 640 hr single is worth 2/3rds of say, $12,000, or $8,000, while the twins are worth 1/10th of say, $14,000 or $1400. The difference is $6,600!)

If you decide on the twins (or either one, really), have the motors checked out professionally if possible.

Also, I'd lean toward engine(s) that are fuel-injected, everything else being equal.

But as usual, YMMV! (Your Mileage <opinion> May Vary) !!! :lol:

Have fun!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe gives an excellent analysis (of course)... Also look for Camper Canvas, the level cockpit floor. The newer boat is more likely to have a 2 part level cockpit floor. It also has the Barber seat (sliding forward seat)--I prefer not to have that, but it is because my wife prefers to sit in the aft seat behind the table.

The boat with twins has Radar--a 1300 to 2000 accessory...If you navigate in fog--that may be important. Also factor in transport. Personally I want to do a sea trial before buying, even if the boat is at some distance.
 
Tough choice, for some. Good advice there too. Yes, I do prefer twins. (Joe has a great memory.) Lots of good reasons, but that is personal preference too, just like the brand of engines. Good advice, (Don't rush into something that will do, when it is not what you want.) Those are different levels of satisfaction and making the wrong choice will haunt you every time you crank the starter.

Since you are asking preferences, mine would be in this order: Yamaha, twins, radar, Barber seat. The floor is a non issue for me, but I like my bare boat bottom. (If there is an inch of water on the cockpit sole, I can see that. It happens. Splash and spray from wind and waves.)

Why not Honda. Boating in Canada with USA Honda is a crap shoot. IF anything goes wrong with the OB's, you are on your own. If you are not going to be in Canada waters, not an issue for you.

Twins, for maneuverability and redundancy.

Radar, (and I would add AIS), are HUGE safety and navigational pluses.

Barber seat, just adds more versatility to the boat.

Cockpit sole, already discussed.

I don't know about the upper limit of hours on the Hondas. If they were Yamis, I would think (if they are well taken care of, that they would go to 3000 plus, maybe to 4K. (That is what the water taxis are doing up on Vancouver Island.)

A good choice, take the boat with the twins, negotiate into the price an upcoming repower, and then put Yami's on it. It has radar so you can start boating right away.

I know Bob and I don't necessarily agree on the permatrims. If you have twins and trim tabs I think the permatrims are extra. Yes they will help in slow speed maneuvering, and they will help in boat trim, but you already have that with the tabs. On a single, I think they are beneficial, again with slow maneuvering around the dock, and for pushing the bow down at speed, especially if you do not have trim tabs, Then the permatrim is a must.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

1_10_2012_from_Canon_961.highlight.jpg
 
Two points where Harvey and I have different opinions--and they are just that---but at least in my case from having owned outboard boats in open ocean use since 1957, or 60 years of experience--during which time I always owned a single engine outboard boat. Even when I had large motorsailers (single) and a couple twin engine trawler types--(that is where I do believe that the twins shine).

The comments about permatrims--I don' see them as maneuvering devices=their principle function is getting the bow down into chop. I have not experienced the twins enough to say if they are adequate or not. Different trims on the outboards do give slightly different thrust patterns. I like my motors to be in optimal thrust position. My first C Dory 22 did not have either trim tabs or Permatrims. The value was demonstrated to me by a neighbor--and how much better this boat rode. The first 25, had trim tabs, so I ran it for over 6 months without a Permatrim--then I added the Permatrim....It made a substantial difference...

The radar on the boat you are looking at, is decent low end radar--it is "adequate" and I have owned similar units. I have been using radar on a regular basis for over 40 years. The newest solid state radars are a whole game changer for small boats, and I believe worth the difference in price. (They are not that expensive in comparison to the entry level Furuno.)

AIS receivers are available in several modern VHF radios. If you are frequently boating at night, restricted visibility or in crowded harbors, where many other vessels have AIS--then there is certainly a reason to have a transceiver, rather than just a receiver.

Electronics--either of these boats has outdated electronics. They work, they will navigate adequately (sometimes finding up to date charts is a challenge, or maybe impossible. There are relatively minor changes in latest GPS--they are more accurate, there are now 3 or 4 systems other than GPS (Russian, European, Chinese), the refresh rate is how adequate for the GPS to accept Radar overlay without a specialized GPS/electronic compass system. The fish finders are a huge leap in quality and functionality in the last several years. Yes, they all show depths, and some show bottom characterless better than others....

As to Longevity--Havey makes a very key statement--the 4000 hour engines are seen on....boats that are used daily and have high maintenance--in this case Water Taxi's. CG, LEO, Survey, YC launches, tour boats, can get these high hours, because of the daily running and excellent maintenance. Although these rarely happen in pleasure craft--because it is rare that the engine is run every day are have as fastidious maintenance.

The fishing guides and Bass Pro's often turn the engines over every year, where they are driving sponsored boats.

How often do outboards break down? Well in my 60 years of using single engine outboards, I have had two problems, I could not fix on the boat. One was an electric shift 2 Stoke 115 hp Evinrude where the shifter stuck in forward...I was able to find a replacement at Catalina Island--where the problem occurred, and was back on the water within 24 hours. The second was a VOR Fitch, where the oil pump went out--and I went home at 8 mph. Only one of my motors clocked over 1000 hours, and that was the 115 HP Evinrude which probably had 1500+ when I sold it. But I owned that boat for over 12 years, and made many long runs in it.

Maneuverability of twins vs singles. When talking about inboards, there is a real difference. You can walk boats sideways with counter rotating twin inboards. Some single engine inboards can be difficult in close quarters maneuver. That describes the majority of boats I have owned. The same rotation outboards--it is hard for me to understand why folks are saying there is no torque effect. A single has torque effect--a set of twins, should have more, if both are the same rotation. The twins on C Dory's are set close together. The Cats and most inboards have props set widely apart. This as well as counter rotation is what makes the increased maneuverability of twins. The key feature of an outboard and I/O is that the prop wash can be directed with steering of the motor.

The Barber sliding seat takes a little of the storage away. (There is less storage right under the seat, and there is less "under the dinette, because of restricted access.). Where I would see it as an advantage (beside having the navigator further forward) would be in you removed the Port side bulkhead between the main cabin and V. berth cabin.

Again--one man's opinion.
 
Two points where Harvey and I have different opinions--and they are just that---but at least in my case from having owned outboard boats in open ocean use since 1957, or 60 years of experience--during which time I always owned a single engine outboard boat. Even when I had large motorsailers (single) and a couple twin engine trawler types--(that is where I do believe that the twins shine).

The comments about permatrims--I don' see them as maneuvering devices=their principle function is getting the bow down into chop. I have not experienced the twins enough to say if they are adequate or not. Different trims on the outboards do give slightly different thrust patterns. I like my motors to be in optimal thrust position. My first C Dory 22 did not have either trim tabs or Permatrims. The value was demonstrated to me by a neighbor--and how much better this boat rode. The first 25, had trim tabs, so I ran it for over 6 months without a Permatrim--then I added the Permatrim....It made a substantial difference...

The radar on the boat you are looking at, is decent low end radar--it is "adequate" and I have owned similar units. I have been using radar on a regular basis for over 40 years. The newest solid state radars are a whole game changer for small boats, and I believe worth the difference in price. (They are not that expensive in comparison to the entry level Furuno.)

AIS receivers are available in several modern VHF radios. If you are frequently boating at night, restricted visibility or in crowded harbors, where many other vessels have AIS--then there is certainly a reason to have a transceiver, rather than just a receiver.

Electronics--either of these boats has outdated electronics. They work, they will navigate adequately (sometimes finding up to date charts is a challenge, or maybe impossible. There are relatively minor changes in latest GPS--they are more accurate, there are now 3 or 4 systems other than GPS (Russian, European, Chinese), the refresh rate is how adequate for the GPS to accept Radar overlay without a specialized GPS/electronic compass system. The fish finders are a huge leap in quality and functionality in the last several years. Yes, they all show depths, and some show bottom characterless better than others....

As to Longevity--Havey makes a very key statement--the 4000 hour engines are seen on....boats that are used daily and have high maintenance--in this case Water Taxi's. CG, LEO, Survey, YC launches, tour boats, can get these high hours, because of the daily running and excellent maintenance. Although these rarely happen in pleasure craft--because it is rare that the engine is run every day are have as fastidious maintenance.

The fishing guides and Bass Pro's often turn the engines over every year, where they are driving sponsored boats.

How often do outboards break down? Well in my 60 years of using single engine outboards, I have had two problems, I could not fix on the boat. One was an electric shift 2 Stoke 115 hp Evinrude where the shifter stuck in forward...I was able to find a replacement at Catalina Island--where the problem occurred, and was back on the water within 24 hours. The second was a VOR Fitch, where the oil pump went out--and I went home at 8 mph. Only one of my motors clocked over 1000 hours, and that was the 115 HP Evinrude which probably had 1500+ when I sold it. But I owned that boat for over 12 years, and made many long runs in it.

Maneuverability of twins vs singles. When talking about inboards, there is a real difference. You can walk boats sideways with counter rotating twin inboards. Some single engine inboards can be difficult in close quarters maneuver. That describes the majority of boats I have owned. The same rotation outboards--it is hard for me to understand why folks are saying there is no torque effect. A single has torque effect--a set of twins, should have more, if both are the same rotation. The twins on C Dory's are set close together. The Cats and most inboards have props set widely apart. This as well as counter rotation is what makes the increased maneuverability of twins. The key feature of an outboard and I/O is that the prop wash can be directed with steering of the motor.

The Barber sliding seat takes a little of the storage away. (There is less storage right under the seat, and there is less "under the dinette, because of restricted access.). Where I would see it as an advantage (beside having the navigator further forward) would be in you removed the Port side bulkhead between the main cabin and V. berth cabin.

Again--one man's opinion.
 
I do know one thing you're right about Bob

Single screw inboards don't maneuver

Thinking between those two boats I'd have to go with the single and less hours

And the hull's newer

Still wondering what they hang on the whale tales
 
Still wondering what they hang on the whale tales
Click to expand...

Not exactly sure what is meant by this. But there are many types and brands of "hydrofoils" put onto outboard motors. Experience has found that for the C Dory hype of boats that the Permatrim, an aluminum extrusion, which bolts to the top or bottom off the anti ventilation plate, is the most effective in trimming the C Dory for most effective hull performance. Some the plastic, or even metal "foils" which are finned, shorter, or different configuration, don't seem to work as well.
 
WeekiTiki":15xdeg4v said:
Still wondering what they hang on the whale tales
Click to expand...

You're probably seeing a "trolling plate" mounted on a hydrofoil ("Whale Tail" is one brand) designed to block engine thrust at low speeds and to therefore reduce the rate of forward motion for trolling with a large outboard, which otherwise would give trolling speeds too fast for many species of fish.

These trolling plates can get speeds of larger outboards down from 3-4 or more mph to under 2 mph for lake trolling for trout, for instance. (It's also possible, as an alternative, to use a drogue chute or a couple of buckets to lower the trolling speed.)

Examples here: Cabelas

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
The Permatrims are more effective because they have more surface area. That is where they are able to drive the bow down better than most of the other variations. They may do that with less drag than the trim tabs to get the same bow down angle.

Where they come into play in the maneuverability game is that the Permatrims have the down turned edges that effectively make the top half of a tunnel, and effectively capture that thrust energy and direct it in the way the OB is pointing. Especially effective in slow speed forward, not so much in reverse. But again, the length and the down turned (90*) edges do provide some rudder function more than any other brand out there.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

9_Sept_Seq_2019_Cal.thumb.jpg
 
These trolling plates can get speeds of larger outboards down from 3-4 or more mph to under 2 mph for lake trolling for trout, for instance.
Click to expand...
I'm just about to get started in the game of salmon fishing via trolling. I have a single Yammi 200 on my 25CD. I tested it the other day, and the slowest I could go was about 3, maybe 3.5, MPH. I have both trim tabs and a Permatrim type device. Something I've never thought to try, until your post above, would be to run forward at idle with the trim tabs fully down.

Does anyone think such a configuration would slow the boat down much?
 
I doubt they would take your idle/trolling speed down more than 1/2 mph, since at very low displacement speeds a boat is so easily propelled.

Mounting a trolling plate on your hydrofoil would definitely do it, however. The trolling plate blocks the forward thrust of the prop, and that's what makes the difference.

Just my 2 cents, others may have different ideas.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Sea Wolf":3c0ydhi9 said:
I doubt they would take your idle/trolling speed down more than 1/2 mph, since at very low displacement speeds a boat is so easily propelled.

Mounting a trolling plate on your hydrofoil would definitely do it, however. The trolling plate blocks the forward thrust of the prop, and that's what makes the difference.

Just my 2 cents, others may have different ideas.

Joe. :teeth :thup
Click to expand...

If you try the trolling plate approach, you'll have to mount the trolling plate to your anti-ventilation plate and/or your hydrofoil. If just to the hydrofoil (which is in turn mounted to the anti-ventilation plate), the hydrofoil will have to be rigid (aluminum or stainless) to be strong enough to take up the stresses when trolling and at speed.

Get one that is spring loaded and automatically folds up when you speed up from trolling and locks the plate in an upward, parallel, flat position compared to the water flow. It should have a lever and a trip-line to let it come back down when you want to use it for slow trolling again.

Example: (See detailed photos.) Happy Troller

P.S.: Looking at my local Craig's List, I found three large used Happy Trollers, all for $40 each. This is a piece of equipment you can buy used with confidence after you look it over good. Beats the $150 new list price by quite a bit!

(I've actually made a couple of hydrofoils myself out of 3/16" and 1/4" aluminum plate, just for the fun of it. Currently enduring 19 years of retirement and had to do something fun with the time!) Ha! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
A question I would ask--perhaps of the Permatrim manufacture or SIM, is what would be the effect of that increased leverage on the Permatrim foil--and would that increase possible damage to anti ventilation plate? At high speed, that may be just enough to cause issues because of the increased leverage.
 
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