Triton now Northwest Marine Industries?

20dauntless":3f8zgzdj said:
Matt, the promotion of C-Dory boats on the new Northwest Marine Industries website is what prompted my statement. Upon further review, however, Northwest Marine Industries may have set up their website prior to the conclusion of the litigation with Carsten.
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I initially thought the same thing about the website and redirects. The final summary judgement in favor of Carstan was just entered last week. Maybe Northwest Marine was just proceeding with C-Dory thinking Carstan wouldn't get the assets.
 
journey on":3qe4xojn said:
And, Matt Gurnsey, count yourself lucky that you couldn't reach an agreement with Triton.
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We do. We would be interested in being a dealer again with the right situation. I don't see that happening anytime soon. :(
 
Where are the Tolands when we really need them.???
It seemed to be so simple back in those days.
Good luck to who ever winds up with the company/molds etc.
It would really be a shame for C-Dory to go down.
 
This thread is like that old game show "To TELL THE TRUTH" . Will the real owners and builders of the C-Dory boat please stand up? I bought our boat in 09 and this makes the third new owner? Another confidence builder for folks on the market for a new boat. Hope these guys make it. Maybe the should send the molds to China and just sell them at Wal-Mart. I called the number on the C-Dory website twice yesterday and they said the same name both times.
D.D.
 
I've been holding off making any comments while the intricacies of the situation have been coming to light. It would be easy to assume that as a direct competitor to the C-Dory 22 that I would be happy to see C-Dory "on the ropes" so to speak but nothing could be further from the truth. While the CD22 and Marinaut 215 are competitors they're also representatives of a genre of boat that is not common and allies in making people aware of that genre. Together they can potentially increase the size of that genre and each will benefit. I've been involved with C-Dory boats for over 15 years now and I still think they're a great boat and I still spend time on my best friend's CD22 (which he bough new in 1994) and thoroughly enjoy it.

Even though the CD22 and M215 occupy the same niche they each have their own attributes and "flavor". I can totally envision having both for sale side-by-side and having folks choose one or the other based on their own needs, wants, and desires. I don't think the M215 is a better CD22, I think it's a Marinaut; there's no reason to make the CD22 look worse in order to make the M215 look better since both boats have a place in the market and offer different ways to fill the same basic niche.

That said I hope that C-Dory as a boat (as opposed to a company) is able to weather the storm and become a viable option in the market again.

My personal opinion is that you can't build a boat like the CD22 (or CD25 for that matter) if you don't "buy into" and understand the concept and market. Unless the market changes significantly (in a way it's not likely to) the CD22 (or the M215) cannot be "mass" produced; it's not a boat that's going to be in every driveway or garage in North America. That means you can't bring a mass production boat mentality to the process and expect satisfactory results.

The big question for anyone trying to resurrect C-Dory is along the lines of "Can we build 30 boats this year (or even 10 or 15) and make this a viable business?" For most builders the answer would be a resounding "no". They can't cover overhead at that level. The Tolands were successful because they kept the company small, simple, and able to react quickly to changing conditions. They also accepted (as best I can tell) that there would be times that the boat sales would outstrip their ability to produce them, and they did not cave into the temptation to increase production radically (which couldn't be sustained in the long run).

It's going to take a special company and situation to find a builder that truly believes in and understands the CD22 concept and who can live with the fact that production may be (well) under 100 units a year (or even under 25). That means a small place that has the love for the boat that is willing to run lean and mean to make it work, or a builder that can mix the low production volume of the C-Dory with other boats they build (without making it a barely tolerated step-child).

Obviously, I think a dedicated builder that loves the boat and can give them the attention they need is the way to go but time will tell. There isn't a "instant" market out there for the C-Dory (or the M215) so it takes time and persistence and personal dedication to market the boat and see it succeed. Honestly, from a business model viewpoint building a C-Dory or a Marinuat makes almost no sense, it takes someone that feels compelled enough to make it happen to push through all the logical reasons not to do it and make it a reality. That doesn't fit the model of the typical production boat builder. That model lives and dies with volume sales as evidenced by the number of builders that have "bit the dust" over the last few years. If Bayliner couldn't build in a day (an hour?) the number of boats I hope to build in a year they'd be crying in their drinks.

I hope that the right folks get a hold of the CD molds and start building them again. This may look like an opportunity for Marinaut to sell more boats but that's not realistic. I hope to be able to produce a boat a month in 2014. That means of all the potential customers that might like to have a CD22/M215 type boat that we can satisfy 12 of them. Big whoop! Marinaut isn't big enough to call attention to the niche it occupies in a big way. It takes more than one manufacturer to ratchet up attention in a specific genre (usually) and they have a symbiotic relationship even though they compete with each other. If you compete with honor it's a win-win for both (or more) companies.

The CD22 is not "too good to disappear", if that were the case it wouldn't be in trouble. If it's "too good" there would already be a backlog of orders on the books sustaining the production of the boat. The problem is that they weren't selling well enough, or at least not well enough to support the overhead costs of the company trying to produce them. The challenge for the C-Dory is not so much the boat itself but the business model that supports it. The reason the last few owners failed to keep building the boat is a failure to understand the market and to adapt a business model to meet the needs of that market. It really has very little to do with the boat and the boat itself can't survive in the market without a dedicated builder.

It's easy to say that the builder needs to advertise more, or spend more time on the site, or go to more shows, and so on. The reality is all that takes a lot of money (to pay for advertising, to pay for people, etc). And if you have a builder with a lot of money then they usually want a boat company that produces enough boats to create the kind of dollars they're happy with, which usually means fairly high volume production. It's a bit unusual for someone with a lot of available dollars to want to build a boat that may sell 20 to 100 units a year and be happy doing it. In that regard the CD22 is at a real disadvantage at the moment. If a few folks with a passion for the boat could get together and buy the mold and then live on building 30-odd boats a year (as Mark Toland could) it would have a fair chance. Put it in a big expensive building with lots of overhead, people sitting in offices, lots of equipment around, and lots of people to "keep production up" and it will go down the tube again.

The other option is to find someone willing to invest millions (as in multiple), set up production, advertise like crazy, set up dealers, and essentially buy your way into the market. It could happen but the number of people with that kind of money willing to risk it in the boat business is pretty small these days. It would really need to be a turnkey boat since a lot of dealers are not setup to do custom rigging. The boats come as they come ready-to-go from the factory and the dealership sells them that way. It's a model that could work if you think you can generate the sales volume to sustain it (which is the bit I don't think works).

Too many words as usual...
 
20dauntless":157yhlrb said:
Here's how I understand what happened:

...

And the future of C-Dory is still unclear. Somebody must see value, though, since they've been paying lawyers for a while!
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So, what we've learned through all this: if you want to make money in the boat business, go to law school. :roll:

It's a damn shame that these great boats cannot find a financially stable home. Under-capitalized, under-promoted... it seems to me that the biggest problem has been the various builders think they are just building a boat. They don't seem to understand that for the most enthusiastic owners (the ones who buy new boats), that they are building "a dream." These aren't a bunch of fiberglass parts with singles or twins, electronics and other stuff - they are the dreams of how we will use these great boats... traveling the waterways, catching the big one, teaching kids about life on the water, exploring new places... even if others have been there before, until you experience it, it is new.

Jeff Messmer understands this: the customer isn't always right, but the customer is where the money to produce this product comes from. Ignore the customer and there IS NO BUSINESS. Oh, with a great design like the C-Dorys, there will be a few determined people who will buy, overcoming the obstacles. But, most will give up when there is no boat to view at the Seattle Boat Show... or when phone calls and e-mails to the factory go unreturned... when dealers get no support from the factory... but, especially when there is no enthusiasm and appreciation (shown) to those who would open their wallets.

It's been a while since I've been on this soapbox. We had one of the best buying experiences when we bought our C-Dory at the 2006 Seattle Boat Show. Unfortunately, by the time we picked up the boat, Jeff was firmly with the Ranger project, and we had one of the worst delivery experiences. It was like flipping a light switch. Since that time, it seems that no one else at C-Dory (whoever the then-current builder was) understood the customer's role in this business.

There are dealers that get it: Marc Grove and Matt Gurnsey... but, they can't be expected to promote something endlessly that the builders can't (or won't) show the same enthusiasm for.

This is a great boat. Functional, unique style, adaptable. Reasonably light weight where it counts, built like a tank where it counts. Wild Blue HAS been the boat we dreamed it would be. Dealing with the factory was frustrating... then, the first change... then, we made no attempt. I base a lot of my feelings on observations, and it is easy to observe how people are treated and how a business owner sees his own product.

This isn't "build it and they will come." Not in today's economic climate.

Some of you know I retired early after a career I enjoyed. One of the services we offered was seminars to professional associations. A guy at one seminar wanted everyone to know how busy his business was; he said, "We are so busy that we let the answering machine get the phone so we can concentrate on what we do best... and then return the call when we get a break. It's more efficient."

I told him, "Keep doing that, and your 'busy problem' will be solved."

Keeping busy usually isn't a problem for a business, until they have pissed away the opportunity to stay busy. A business CANNOT afford to miss ANY opportunity to show a potential customer how their product fulfills "the dream."

I've been accused of being a Ranger Tug and Jeff "fan-boi". I like Jeff; I admire what Ranger has accomplished, especially when other builders have tanked. They have done well because of key people who understand where their business comes from. They build a quality product, promote it smartly, and stand behind it. You don't have to be on this forum long to figure out that a lot of their buyers have come from people who used to be C-Dory owners.

I really hope the C-Dory assets find a home where their value AND POTENTIAL will be appreciated. There are a lot of people out there who need the right conveyance for their dream.

We may be making a change in the coming months, but it has nothing to do with any factory entity. "The dream" evolves.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
I do know is who Buck Fowler is. He worked at C-Dory in the mid 2000s. I met him when I took my boat to Tern Marine Salvage to get disused fiberglass holes repaired. Based on the impression I had meeting him, I'd think it would be a win if he or his company became owners.

One other thing, the Tern Boat Salvage location on Pacific Highway S in Kent was one of the old C-Dory factories. There are still a couple of incomplete C-Dory hulls in the yard there IIRC.
 
Jim nails it again. This isn't a mainstream boat. It's a cute , quirky little guy that just does the job. Whatever you want, fish, cruise, boaterhome, poke about in the shallows or go offshore. The builder business model likely needs to be a "lifestyle" business. Someone who can afford to build a boat a month or as ordered and have enough "play money" to do it. Like the woodstove builder in Nova Scotia I bought from years back. They only did stoves when schooner builds slowed. A small shop with an enthused for the brand owner with the resources to call in when needed a team to build a boat. Could be a group of retired folks who own c dorys. Not huge money for anyone. The boats are just not sexy enough to ever be a huge business. A group of guys who are either otherwise employed or retired and knowledgable and interested in a project could work. An outside the box model is needed. Like a lot of museums are staffed by keen volunteers. We could do it here. Or like BC pulp mills are now doing, workers chip in to buy the business, work at sustainable wage levels and watch for waste. Maybe some keen retired c dory owners looking for a part time project? Not a daily job a project job. The boats are great, where we get in trouble is trying to make a living producing them. Likely not possible. But one might make a life by producing them. Lots of folks with money are looking for something to do or be. Hopefully this will sort out so we see new boats. I feel blessed that both of my boats were done in early stage of Fluid and Triton builds and the great quality is appreciated. Best of luck guys. George :thup
 
Nice summary, Jim - I feel like I've been to a seminar!

Change, huh..... do you think a Ranger would be more welcome at the RV parks or something?

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
 
Another issue that comes into play is the mixed blessing of building a boat that has had a long, successful production run. Two examples come to mind: the 26' Tollycraft flybridge cruiser and the 32' Bayliner motoryacht. Both of these boats hit the "sweet spot" of the boating market with the right amount of amenities and features at the right price. During the production of these boats, the changes were minor, such as trim, fabrics, and engine options. Little or no change happened with the tooling.

At some point, the competition is not other brands of boats, but identical used boats in the market. Why should I buy a new 22' C-Dory when I can purchase a good used one (well equipped) for nearly half the price of a new one? One option is to expand the product line for current owners to move up or down in size (such as the 16', 19, and 25' models). The other option is to come up with an entirely new model which can be a big roll of the dice (R.I.P. for the 29' C-Dory). It is unfortunate that the current and previous owners (after the Tolands) have not been able to maintain a viable business building an iconic boat.
 
Les,

Many excellant points. A major one being the need for a business plan, don't think they've had one at C-Dory for a long time. It has been operated more like a hobby, if someone wants a boat, we'll build one. You can't survive for long with that approach. You need to know your market (customer) and know your business and plan for both. And a little innovation along the way doesn't hurt. This applies whether you're business plan calls for a small business or a large one.

Jake
 
Do you guys think maybe they are just to expensive to build for what they can sell for? I have noticed that all kinds of finishing products and hardware on C-Dory, are quite good quality, compared to other boats of similar size (ie Trophy, Arima)
 
The high quality build and equipment is part of the reason for the dedicated following. It is expensive gear for sure and I bought the boat because of it. The quality makes it a real cruising boat. Having bought 2 new cd's I for one am willing to ante up for the quality. In my case it makes a full time cruiser with limited modifications. I lined the lockers with 1/2 inch foam. Then moved aboard and traveled. Not possible with many 22 footers out there. Keep the quality high whoever builds them. I see boats advertised out there as cruisers and they don't even have anchor rollers or midship cleats. 2 prime things needed.
 
They are simple well built , seaworthy boats that don't need a lot of attention. The first time I got in a CC, I knew I was at home. I bought my boat to do the Great Loop in retirement. WONDERFUL BOAT! We weren't able to do the trip for many reasons. They are for people who want to enjoy their time on the water. They are utilitarian, not flashy. These boats are used. They are economical. Who cares about WOT. I want to cruise at a minimum cruising speed and enjoy my day on the water. I want to be safe. I don't want to worry about getting caught in really bad weather. The boat will take more than me. Les, Matt, and Marc have been and are long time supporters of the brand.

It may be a niche boat, but not for the new boater whose wife says, "isn't that a pretty boat, lets buy that." In 6 foot seas,pretty doesn't cut it.

Let's hope the brand can stay alive, well, and as well made as it has been.
 
All of this is quite interesting except that no one seems to have contacted Northwest Marine Industries or any of the dealers to find out the real story.

1. Name change In March 2013 from Triton to Northwest.
2. Scott Boysen is no longer with the company.
3. Ron Wright seems to be managing very carefully his business at this point.
4. Triton warranties are honored by Northwest.
5. C-Dory is their most popular line 13 CD's built to 1 SS.
6. The company is very solvent at this point and excited to build quality boats.
7. The down economy created the opportunity for consolidation of several boat lines to diversify and make the company profitable.
8. Call the company for accurate information as things change but wild speculation based purely on guess serves no useful purpose.
9. Ryan or Marc are dealers and in the know (they have money invested).

I took delivery of a semi custom built 2013 CD23V (1-2013) and will have some changes made in June of 2013 covered by Northwest. These new boats are solid and well built. As with any builder with the exception of Les (Marinaut 215), there are some issues but the layup is solid and structure is excellent.
 
My Ira,
As an owners group forum I and plenty of other folks support the brand by handing out cards with C-Dory contact info about the factory and the C-Brats. I do this for free in the interest of helping who ever the builder might be. Now this is just my opinion here; but knowing this as a buyer of the new company and not making any post in attempt to provide info to the people that currently do a fair amount to support the brand is just plain stupid. This is kind of important when you consider the number of recent ownship changes. I mean what would it cost really to join up with the C-Brats and do a post explaining things along with a current dealer list. Certainly that would have ended all the speculation would it not? The fact that they did not do that leads me to think the C-Brats not all that important to them. Thats just me. I'll not be making any new hand out cards promoting them until they do some sort of post on this site. They don't care, I don't care.
D.D.
 
dave":2d9m0x1f said:
It may be a niche boat, but not for the new boater whose wife says, "isn't that a pretty boat, lets buy that." In 6 foot seas,pretty doesn't cut it.
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When we were looking to upsize and checking out the possibilities, it was my wife who said "That's so cute. That's the one we should get." when we came across a C-Dory.
 
I must agree with WILL-C. I've been very surprised at the lack of manufacturer marketing participation on C-Brats. I've just assumed that there was some regulation against commercial tooting of horns on this site. But if there is no such regulation someone in Dory marketing needs to be fired. I've taught marketing and business management and the courses I taught were freshman level. The C-Dory factory is missing out on the most basic marketing strategy and that is kissing up regularly to your existing customer base. Were I in that position at Dory, I'd be offering up a nice stainless BBQ grill for a "door prize" at every C-Dory gathering or some such nice thing; maybe a waterproof VHF. Brand loyalty is very hard to earn. Its also hard to lose, but it can be lost and once lost, it will be almost impossible to bring back.

C-Dory factory should post a monthly newsletter here in this site if site regs allow. Then, all the speculation, and critical comment would probably not be happening. Knowing facts and intent and why is simple to do, costs nothing, and will sell boats.

I will never be in a position to buy a brand new boat of the 22 and up class, so I'm in the lightly used buyer class in boats, cars and homes. But, as a used Dory owner, I am willing to be in the front line of marketing for free by talking Dory, showing my dory and so on. But if I figure the factory doesn't recognize the value of CURRENT owners, then I'd not be so willing to put myself out to push the marque.

I'm totally happy with my current "Still Crazy" and hope to keep it for a long time. At age 69, it may well, and probably should be my last cruiser.
 
potter water":3so3knhp said:
I've just assumed that there was some regulation against commercial tooting of horns on this site. But if there is no such regulation someone in Dory marketing needs to be fired.
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I've actively encouraged EVERY owner of C-Dory to participate here. I've offered to set up areas specifically for factory support, that they could "call their own." I've offered to help them promote their dealers and their dealers' inventory - both free via the forums, and via extremely reasonable terms for them to advertise up top and on the home page.

Basically, I've been ignored by all of them. A couple token communications, then silence.

I've near zero sympathy for all of the previous C-Dory owners. They've been given waaaaay more than is necessary to ensure their best chance of success. They have the best possible marketing tool at their disposal - us. They've ignored our suggestions as to the importance of ongoing and active community support - even though this model has a proven track record, both with C-Dory and Ranger with the right person (Jeff) at the helm.

Whoever starts making the boats again - I predict they'll fail miserably again, unless they take the above to heart. And if so - they've nobody to blame but themselves.
 
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