Tow vehicle considerations for C-25

M

matt_unique

New member
I'm researching options for my next boat. I read a previous post indicating a C-25 was 8000 lbs on a scale. I initially thought that was nonsense since the base weight is 3602. I started crunching a few numbers....

Base weight 3602 lbs
Twin 90's with batteries 800 lbs
100 G of fuel is approx. 600 lbs
26 G of water is approx. 220 lbs
Estimate 45 lbs for anchor and rode
Estimate 2000 lbs for trailer
Few hundred lbs for gear and you're at 7500 lbs wet WOW!

I can see 8000 lbs is not crazy....

Is 2000lbs accurate for the trailer?

Are there any C-25 owners who use their truck to drive to work every day AND tow the C-25? I realize I need something that can tow at least 7500 lbs and I'm curious what others do. I would prefer to own 1 truck maxed out for the tow job so I can have decent gas mileage for my daily commute. I will tow perhaps 6 times a year, never more than 100 miles. I know there are some guys that insist you need an F-350 super duper to tow an 8000 lb boat. I'm not one of those guys. You can slow down, load light, fuel up close to the ramp to save weight for the long ride, etc. using a lesser tow vehicle. What about load distribution hitches or such?

Thanks for your experience.

--Matt
 
I use a 2004 Dodge Durango w/hemi and tow package. Just returned from Tampa, Fl to Asheville, NC (675 miles). I travel to the east coast (ICW) and to local area lakes (100 miles). Have not had any problems yet. The Durango has no problems coming back up the mountains.

Patrick
 
Matt--
I just wanted to jump in and give you a resource to help you make an educated decision: Trailer Boats Magazine. You can check them out on the internet at TrailerBoats.com They did an article listing all the vehicles and their respective tow ratings. I believe the article was for '05 vehicles, but suffice it to say the tow ratings of most trucks has only increased since then. A properly equipped '07 Ford F-150 is tow rated at approx. 10,000 lbs. The main thing you want to feel comfortable with (regardless of the distance you are towing) is STOPPING POWER! Pulling a heavy load is a no brainer---controlling it and stopping it safely is another issue all together. You will certainly get many responses from folks about what works for them, but ultimately you will have to make THE decision. SAFETY should be your only determining factor.
Good luck :D
 
Or you could get a Duramax, drive it to work every day getting 18-20MPG and enjoy the ride. Pulling the boat I drop to between 16 -18 but I also have a very long steep pass to get over going to Seward. The fun part is watching for the guys in a little car or whatever who pull up to pass you on this long hill. I will ease into it a little and then a little more and can generally walk away from the majority(going up hill). You also have great control on the downhill stuff due to the Allison set up. And did I mention that great ride? :wink:
Mike
 
OK, let's go over a CRUISING 25 weight again. I weighed Journey On when we came back from last summer's trip, and Les will say the boat was overloaded. The scale weight was 9004# That included the trailer and all "stuff" for the summer, with EMPTY water and gasoline tanks. The get-me-home motor was in the truck as were the dingy and a spare tyre.

Towing: 9500 lbs, including the load in the rear of the truck. Anything with a 350 engine can tow it. A 3/4 ton truck is great, but a 1/2 ton will do. A V-6 ain't going to cut it.

Boating: The trailer is listed at 2350 lbs (ref E-Z Loader.) So, with full tanks, and 2 motors, dingy, and 2 people a CD-25 cruising weight is: 8000 lbs. And it performs great.
 
I have an '03 Expedition w/5.4L 4x4, tow rating is 8,750 lbs (8,900 lbs for 2 wh drive). I get 18-19 mpg non-towing, 10 mpg towing. My CD-25 weighs in at 7,500 lbs with full gas tank (100 gal), 1/2 water (10 gal), twin Yamaha 80 4-strokes, 2 batteries, raft, raft motor (Yamaha 3hp), ice chest, 2 sets anchors w/rode, windlass, tools, chairs, food, BBQ, crew of 2 clothes/sleeping bags, normal cruising gear. My trailer is a Pacific 27 ft dual axle (oversize and rated for 11,000 lbs), w/4 wheel disc brakes, spare wheel, side bunks with incorporated ladder, approx 2000-2200 lbs according to their specs.

However, I elected to not get the shower option with water heater, 110VAC power panel, or maine toilet with holding tank. Those items could be responsible for my lighter weight than others. I added a Wallas 1300 heater last year, weight probably went up 50-75 lbs with unit, 1.5 gal kerosene and extra heavy wiring added.
 
I had mentioned in an earlier thread that our boat/trailer weighed 8440, with half a tank of fuel and not much water. We had plenty of boat stuff in the bed of the pickup, so subtracting 2000 lbs +/- for the trailer... add more fuel and water... cruising stuff like the dinghy, motor, generator... carry the 7... yeah, you need something substantial to comfortably tow.

We originally had a Dodge one ton Class B campervan with an 8400 lb tow rating and decided that it wasn't enough. We are delighted with the GMC Sierra 2500 Duramax that we bought to tow. It is comfortable enough that it also our daily driver. Plenty of power, quiet, and much better gas mileage than we were getting with the van. We see around 18 mpg solo, 12 +/- towing. We have just over 20,000 on it now; the dealer tells me the mileage should increase a bit "when we get it broke in." We've now hauled coast to coast (to coast) and give this vehicle two enthusiastic thumbs up.

And here's a post where I can actually say "your mileage may vary." :lol:

I am a supporter of the versatility of these boats due to their towability; having a good tow vehicle really makes that task more pleasant.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
In the past we used a 3/4 ton Dodge van to tow our Rosborough 246. The scale weight lightly loaded was over 8000 pounds. This van did a good job with this heavy boat. Use trailer boats mag. as a reference. Do not take the word of a truck salesman about towing. Most will tell you anything to make a sale.

Most people agree that a weight distributing hitch is not good with boat trailers. You can eliminate a little rear end sag with air springs. I just saw an adv. for Ford pick-ups that claims their F-150 1/2 ton can handle 10,500 pounds.

Have fun with all your new toys.

Fred, Pat, and Mr. Grey (the cat)
 
I use an F 250 Ford with the power stroke diesel engine. Just like the posts of cd 25 owners that use the Duramax I enjoy a great ride, 10+ mpg, plenty of room, great stopping and visibility while towing fully loaded with little change in noise and handling. It is an 05 model with 98,000 trouble free miles. Break pads changed once.
While Cathy and I enjoy our boat all the time are best times are when we attend events with other C-Dory people. Even though you plan to only tow 100 miles at a time right now, it only takes once and you will be looking out for more events. I would hate to see you make a choice for a tow vehicle and then be limited to distance as a result of that decision. I bought mine new but these vehicles are really cheap one or two years old.
Something to also consider is that fueling your tow vehicle under way is easier at a truck stop designed for trucks much larger. Gas limits you to the front of the store making fuel stops very stressful where space is usually limited. Empty I get 18+ mpg. Have fun !
 
I'm towing my Tom Cat to Lake Powell from Anacortes as we speak. I have an '02 Dodge Ram 4x4 SWB Cummins 5.9 and NV5600 6-speed trans, 3.73 gears. I've gently modified this rig with a mild Edge chip, Banks exhaust and AFE air system. I get 18-20 around town (this is with tires one size larger than stock) and pulling the boat I am getting around 12 mpg.

I have Air-Lift air bags pumped up to 80 psi and it rides well but you definitely feel rough roads. I'm beginning to see the allure of a 3500 MegaCab dually though!

Warren
 
I towed our boat for 4 summers with an 03 Ford Expedition. It weighs between 7500 & 8000 lbs. I live over the Cascade Mountains from the saltwater and had no trouble towing the boat with that vehicle. It was my work vehicle and we still have it as a shop rig. I now have a 07 Expedition EL. It is supposed to have around a 9,000# tow rating. I have the boat in dry storage now at Twin Bridges so I haven't towed it with the new Expedition. I expect it to tow even better because of the extra length and weight of the EL. I ordered both vehicles with air suspension. I think it is a great option for towing.

I don't know why there is a belief that weight distributing hitches won't work on boat trailers. I have had one since the boat was new and I wouldn't be without it. My first trailer had surge brakes and the weight distributing hitch that Les at EQ put on worked great with the surge brakes. I replaced that trailer with one that has discs and electric over hydraulic brakes and still have the weight distributing hitch.

If you read the fine print on tow vehicles (at least the SUV's that I've owned) it says that your rating is only 6,000# without the weight distributing hitch. I know that we don't have the same tongue weight as a travel trailer that requires a weight distributing hitch, but I didn't want to explain why I had exceeded the manufacturers towing capacity in court if I had an accident. With my weight distributing hitch I can tow up to the manufacturer's maximum rating.
Lyle
 
Lyle-

Glad to hear the weight distributing hitch works so well for you!

I think the big "hullabaloo" about this type of hitch with boat trailers is that most boat trailers have surge brakes, where the trailer tongue changes length slightly as the surge actuator (hydraulic cylinder) is compressed between the hitch and the trailer behind.

Most weight distributing hitches do not accomodate this type of brake system, as they have arms or draw bars that extend from the "A" part of the frame of the trailer forward to anchor points out to the side of the tow vehicle's tow ball.

These arms are what distributes the weight forward and onto the tow vehicle.

Because of the draw bar's fixed length and solid anchors and their pre-loading/bending, much of the tongue and forward weight of the trailer is transfered onto the tow vehicle, and effectively forward of the ball.

This type of hitch also works great to eliminate trailer sway.

There's only one brand or make of weight distributing hitch that works somewhat differently, and can therefore accomodate the surge brake system.

Since Les put it on and it works---you got it!

The other weight distributing hitches will also work, but require electric or electric over hydraulic brakes.

I'll post the brand of the workable hitch here if I can find it in the archives.

Joe.


Bess-C":2vleikd6 said:
I towed our boat for 4 summers with an 03 Ford Expedition. It weighs between 7500 & 8000 lbs. I live over the Cascade Mountains from the saltwater and had no trouble towing the boat with that vehicle. It was my work vehicle and we still have it as a shop rig. I now have a 07 Expedition EL. It is supposed to have around a 9,000# tow rating. I have the boat in dry storage now at Twin Bridges so I haven't towed it with the new Expedition. I expect it to tow even better because of the extra length and weight of the EL. I ordered both vehicles with air suspension. I think it is a great option for towing.

I don't know why there is a belief that weight distributing hitches won't work on boat trailers. I have had one since the boat was new and I wouldn't be without it. My first trailer had surge brakes and the weight distributing hitch that Les at EQ put on worked great with the surge brakes. I replaced that trailer with one that has discs and electric over hydraulic brakes and still have the weight distributing hitch.

If you read the fine print on tow vehicles (at least the SUV's that I've owned) it says that your rating is only 6,000# without the weight distributing hitch. I know that we don't have the same tongue weight as a travel trailer that requires a weight distributing hitch, but I didn't want to explain why I had exceeded the manufacturers towing capacity in court if I had an accident. With my weight distributing hitch I can tow up to the manufacturer's maximum rating.
Lyle
Click to expand...
 
Hi all,

First of all, just like anchors, there's no such thing as a "too big" tow vehicle. Once you get past the point of actually having a tow vehicle rated for the load you need to haul it's usually a matter of budget, other uses, comfort, looks, what-have-you but you can't go too big. In my distant past I drove semis and today I'd still choose one to tow anything over 10,000 pounds if it wouldn't require all the comprosmises that it would. :) Since that isn't realistic (for most of us) just choose the next best thing and buy the largest vehicle you can live with (obviously, that's rated for the load).

The other thing that I'd mention is wheelbase is more important than power. Power is nice to have as is lets you keep moving in the hills and it makes it easier on the tow rig but wheelbase (and weight) is what keeps the tow vehicle in control of the boat and trailer and not vice versa. When the tail starts wagging the dog it's not a pleasant experience. I've been scared enough towing marginal setups that I know I don't like it at all and highly don't recommend it.

If you're going to tow a boat over 5,000 pounds and you're buying new just get electric over hydraulic brakes; it's almost a no-brainer now. The cost is not much higher and the control-ability is vastly improved. Personally, I'd spec any new trailer that required brakes that way but I understand the reasons some choose otherwise.

Towing is a balancing act; it's like keeping an airplane flying. If the weight and balance get out of whack at best you've got something that doesn't handle well, at worst you crash and burn. If you lose control of the tow vehicle you've got a very heavy object virtually tailgating you waiting to run over you; it's just best to set things up from the beginning to be in control of the situation at all times. Other than snow and ice (which we all hope to avoid while towing) the worst situation I can think of is a long, steep (like 6%) downhill grade when it's raining hard and the wind is blowing. That's the one you want to set your long-distance tow rig to handle; if it can do that you'll be happy everywhere. Local towing is "easier" in some respects but the situation I try to control then is someone, seeing this lumbering rig coming down the road, jumping out in front of you because they don't want to get stuck behind you and it's throw the anchor out time...you want to have the rig set up to successfully stop in a 50 mph Oh My Gosh moment (dogs and deer come to mind as well).

Remember, for the best tow rigs we're not setting up for the best of times, we're setting up for the worst. Or as the Bee Gees would say "stayin' alive"!

On the weight distributing hitch...

Any set up with chains on the end of the bars should work fine with surge brakes; so far that's been the case for us. Even at parking lot speeds this works. If you have a vehicle that requires weight distribution over a certain weight I wouldn't hesitate at all to install a weight distribuion hitch.

Another rule-of-thumb I use for the tow rig is...take 10% of the total weight of the object you're towing. If your tow vehicle can't comfortably carry that on the hitch (use weight distribution hitch if necessary) buy something bigger. You may love your current vehicle and you may love that larger boat...but are you willing to die for it?

I think part of the fun of having a trailerable boat are the road trips to go to some of the places I want to visit. I think the trip to the boating destination ought to be as safe and fun as the boating itself is. If you climb out of your tow rig and the back of the seat is wet with sweat and the seat cushion wrinkled (from a very high pucker factor) something isn't right...fix it before you don't have the opportunity to do so.
 
Les-

Great post!

Lots of good clear information and recommendations.

Les wrote:

"Other than snow and ice (which we all hope to avoid while towing) the worst situation I can think of is a long, steep (like 6%) downhill grade when it's raining hard and the wind is blowing. "

BTDT!

Going down 4-5% grade in snow with chains, and lost trailer brakes! (Broken hydraulic line.)

Three times into the snow bank, and wisely called it quits and called the tow truck.

Got really pushed around by the CD-22 behind my half ton van!

Interesting Catch-22: Boat wants to pass you. So you step on brakes. Too bad, no trailer brakes! No steering either!

Brakes on van "OK" on rear with chains, but front brakes lock up, skid, and stop steering when brakes are applied.

Shoved into snow bank. Back up, try again. Same result!

After 3X, figure snowbank may not always save your bacon, sending you, tow vehicle, and beloved C-Dory to bottom on canyon below.

Slow learners are dangerous!

Pretty exciting!!!

Joe. (Can laugh about it NOW!) :lol:
 
Les makes a lot of good points. Especially about Electric/Hydraulic brakes. When I first started towing Journey On, I used a short wheelbase 1/2 ton 63 Chevvy, which needed an equalizer hitch. So I ordered E/H brakes, and they worked well. The E/H brakes also offer several advantages, of which I was ignorant. First on a downhill the brakes don't apply until YOU step on the brakes. Saves on overheating and ruined pads. Next, when you want to stop going uphill (such as on a ramp,) you can apply the trailer brakes. Keeps you from sliding backwards on the ramp. And most important of all, you can apply the trailer brakes independently of the truck brakes. Coming downhill when it's wet, just touch the trailer brake controller and all is better. After ~ 5000 mi. the pads look good. For the CD-25 and Tomcat, E/H brakes are mandatory.

I have an awkward place to park the boat. So when Judy demanded an upgrade in the truck, and the Chevvy agreed, we got the shortest wheelbase 3/4 ton made. Its a standard cab Ford, and it's heavy (5500 # dry,) and it tows well without equalizer bars. I also shortened out the trailer's front frame member, so I'd have a shorter trailer. So the point is to balance out the trailer (as Les says 10% on the hitch,) and you'll have no trouble. Shorter is handier, and I've still got the longest trailer/truck combo in the parking lot. Except: when you come (back) into Calif, a safe speed is 63 mph.

The southern Boris
 
I should make a point here that you may not always have tongue weight that's 10% of the total weight and 5% to 7% is acceptable for tandem and triple rigs. I'll still stand by my assertion that the tow vehicle should be capable of taking the 10% on the hitch; that usually ensures that the tow vehicle is up to the task at hand.
 
Very timely discussion for me. I have been unhappy with the way my trailer and Dodge are working together on roads where there are frost heaves and it feels like I am on a pogo stick. Great to know that you actually can put equalizer hitch components on a boat trailer, so I will look into that. I just had my surge brakes replaced with (or I should say augumented with) electric brakes. The guy who put the electric brake controller on said there was no room left for the equalizer on the tongue. Maybe Les can figure something out for me.

Warren
 
I have a 1/2 ton GMC Sierra with a 5.3 engine, tow package, 4 wheel drive and nothing has been done to enhance the performance of the vehicle. It is stock. We have a 25' Cruiser and the truck pulls just fine. I do have a Magic Tilt aluminum trailer (weighs approx. 900 lbs.) and I installed inflatable air bags (Firestone brand) on the truck. Good luck :smiled
 
I am also in the Duramax club [Chevy] with a 3/4 ton crew cab short bed. I tow ALOT and 80% of the time I am satisfied , and feel safe and comfortable . If I towed all the time , there is no doubt I would have a dually , but I also use my truck for my daily driver and a long dually is no fun in a parking lot or on my occasional foray into the big city[Talahassee]. Therefore , I will be adding the "Firestone Air Rides" soon ,and have a fat set of Michelins on stock rims , and am careful !! It does the job for me well now and will be even better when I upgrade the suspension[that does make a huge difference] .The power and fuel economy are great. For a few bucks you can have a tire smoking monster or super economical towing unit [or both]with the add ons available for diesels.
Stay tuned for the next great debate over "ultra low sulfur fuel" engines versus the '06 and older engines!! :
Marc
 
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