tomcat vs other cdorrys for offshore?

[nuccifilms]

i'm a year away from getting my 1st boat, perhaps even my only boat. i'm super sold on the cdorys, but also been looking at rosborough r246 and seasports. once i do have my own boat, i'll no longer be doing my offshore overnight charters out of southern CA. also, i will have my wife aboard in my own boat, where it will be a whole different experience.

now, the cdory 22 would cost half as much and maybe 1/3 cheaper to run maintain. and we could live with it space wise. however, i understand the catamaran hull and twin outboards would sure be nice 50 miles out? the rocking of a monohull is nothing to me, but my wife gets seasick. and of course, i will still appreciate a more stable platform. but as far as other perks of a bigger, more powerful, less important, since i expect i'll be driving it more like a trawler most wherever i go.

so in terms of safety and comfort, should i spring for the added sea-worthiness of a T255?

 

[westward]

Since you have a year I'd suggest test rides on both. They are completely different animals. I think your 1/3 variable cost estimate is low: The 22 runs on 90-115HP (originally designed around a 2-stroke 70) and the Tomcat on 300-350HP. The Tomcat is in a whole different category with respect to weight, size, trailer/tow requirements, moorage space, etc. and the 22 is really more of a day boat IMO. I believe the Rosborough has round chines and will thusly roll quite a bit during normal operation. It is also a big, heavy boat but most efficient under 15MPH. I saw one last weekend with a single Honda 130 which the owners said was quite adequate for their use. The Tomcat is big, heavy, and stable, has a proper head, and will appeal to a reluctant spouse for ocean runs much more than the other 2 if you can afford it. Best of luck! Mike

 

[Ordutch1975]

If my primary focus was offshore I’d definitely include the seasport 24 explorer. It’s not cheap but worth looking at.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

If my primary focus was offshore I’d definitely include the seasport 24 explorer. It’s not cheap but worth looking at.

One of my college friends just sold one in Anacortes. Nicely equipped, great shape and I think it sold for under $60K.

 

[nuccifilms]

i expect to be relocating to within 15 miles of shore, so hauling and dry storing my vessel at home during the week will help towards maintenance costs. the abundant cat space is the real icing on the cake to T255's stability. the seasport 24 does have a full head, unlike the cdory 22, which wife will appreciate on our all- weekend trips. i'm also looking at 10-15 year old models, so those seasport 24s are easily in my $40k$70k price range. still love the RF-246 for it's single outboard setup, but the comment on it's increased roll may be something i'll need to explore in a sea trial. again, performance is not a big factor on any choice, as i will mostly troll to wherever i go.

 

[colbysmith]

I think many of us would beg to differ on looking at the CD-22 as a day boat. We've spent up to 3 weeks at a stretch on ours, and I know there are others that have done longer. Sure it's smaller than the 25's and Tomcats. But the problem with space is, everyone seems to need more regardless which size boat they are on! I completely agree with get out and ride on the different ones you are looking at! Colby

 

[nuccifilms]

i concur. comfort (and cost) is a relative thing. i've been doing 2 fishing charters a month, spending$1,000/month. my wife stays in a hotel, while i'm shoulder to shoulder, dealing with line tangles on a VERY compromised time on the water. the fun i'll have with my wife onboard, on ANY boat that can safely stay out 40 miles offshore. in that respect, the cozy, economic CD22 will be a dream!

 

[thataway]

i'm a year away from getting my 1st boat, perhaps even my only boat. i'm super sold on the cdorys,....i'll no longer be doing my offshore overnight charters out of southern CA. also, i will have my wife aboard in my own boat, where it will be a whole different experience.

......catamaran hull and twin outboards would sure be nice 50 miles out? the rocking of a monohull is nothing to me, but my wife gets seasick. and of course, i will still appreciate a more stable platform. but as far as other perks of a bigger, more powerful, less important, since i expect i'll be driving it more like a trawler most wherever i go.

so in terms of safety and comfort, should i spring for the added sea-worthiness of a T255?

performance is not a big factor on any choice, as i will mostly troll to wherever i go.

my wife stays in a hotel, while i'm shoulder to shoulder, dealing with line tangles on a VERY compromised time on the water. the fun i'll have with my wife onboard, on ANY boat that can safely stay out 40 miles offshore. in that respect, the cozy, economic CD22 will be a dream!

Often when I give talks on long distance cruising, I emphasize the difference between the fantasy and the reality of life at sea.

It seems as though you have only experience on a large charter boat--which is far different than a 22 or 25 foot outboard boat. I have emphasized a subject you have repeated--that is that you wife gets seasick She does not go with you on the large charter boat. So how comfortable is she going to be on a 22 or25 foot boat which will really rock and roll.

You say you will be trolling or going at trawler speeds. The reality is that the all boats can roll at those speeds, far more than at planing speeds. On the other hand, when you take a wave the wrong way--you wil--l, and you wife is thrown across the cabin, how much "fun" is that going to be--especially if she is already seasick?

The Tom Cat is a great boat, and it is more stable than the 22 or 25, in some conditions. But in heavy seas, it often does far better than at higher speeds. Also because of the low bridge deck, the boat drags the bridge deck in the water when at low speeds. It can be run at displacement speeds,--but in rough weather you will have a lot of "Slam". Also it takes a lot of skill and experience to run any boat in rough conditions.

The other issue is the perception of conditions offshore S. Calif. You have gone on a charter boat out of San Diego. You say you are going to be going slowly most of the time--at 6 mph it will take 6 1/2 hours to get 40 miles off shore. At about 11 AM, the breeze starts up--and by mid afternoon, it is choppy, and no longer "calm".

I fear that the fantasy--a lot of which I see in your posts (on other forms, as well as here), is a bit over what reality will be. How will your wife, who gets seasick really do on the small boats? How much "fun" is that going to be?

I wish you well--but be realistic.

 

[hardee]

"... the 22 is really more of a day boat IMO."

I also would take issue with that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there are plenty of folks who have spent well over 2 weeks at a time on a 22. Lots of them. Personally, I have 10 weeks of continuous time on board. That is nothing compared to Bill and El's nearly 20 years on Halcyon.

Would the 22 do the 40 miles off shore? Sure, but I'm with Bob Austin, I think you need to look at the wife going more realistically. She may not have ginger as her favorite food staple.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

 

[nuccifilms]

much good criticism. and on top of my wife's seasickness, she has the woman's prerogative of changing her mind like the wind. 1 am certainly not resting a $50K+ purchase on that? she'll be gung-ho the 1st time out, and it'll be hell to pay, if she's ever aboard when things get rough.

my post is not fantasy, as it is managed risk. . . when she's aboard, it will be strictly bottom fishing outside the bay. i know an elderly couple that makes routine runs to catalina island on their 23' parker. and whatever compromise i have to make to just be on water every weekend, is OK, if that means a CD22 that never looses sight of land, so be it. the T255 evaluation, is more for my big boys outings in mind.

 

[Art in Fairfield Harbour]

As one who has just bought a well maintained, used C-Dory 22 Cruiser, I can safely say the wife does not like the portable toilet in the cabin sleeping area, or the pounding of a flat bottom in only a 1 foot chop at barely planing speed. At displacement speed it is OK, but rough.

As one who lived in S CA, I can also remember my son who never gets seasick, getting seasick in an 20 foot boat due to the typical about 10 second period, 5 foot high, pacific Ocean swells outside LA Harbor, not the waves.

Consider the 25 foot C-Dory as a minimum to get a separate head! And probably with a marine toilet rather than a porta-potty. She will also appreciate the fancier amenities in the 25.

Running that far ofshore, I would want twin engines even on a 25 C-Dory.

Not being familiar with the T-Cat in the Pacific, I would definitely want a ride in one in a heavy swell at displacement speed. I would also look at the "Twin-V" cat that is extensively used for off shore fishing out of the Florida Keys. It seems to handle off shore well, but does not have a great cabin as it does not have a deep area between the two hulls.

YOU HAVE TIME! YOU AND YOUR WIFE SHOULD TAKE TEST RIDES!

 

[Jazzmanic]

As one who has just bought a well maintained, used C-Dory 22 Cruiser, I can safely say the wife does not like the portable toilet in the cabin sleeping area, or the pounding of a flat bottom in only a 1 foot chop at barely planing speed. At displacement speed it is OK, but rough.

As one who lived in S CA, I can also remember my son who never gets seasick, getting seasick in an 20 foot boat due to the typical about 10 second period, 5 foot high, pacific Ocean swells outside LA Harbor, not the waves.

Consider the 25 foot C-Dory as a minimum to get a separate head! And probably with a marine toilet rather than a porta-potty. She will also appreciate the fancier amenities in the 25.

Running that far ofshore, I would want twin engines even on a 25 C-Dory.

Not being familiar with the T-Cat in the Pacific, I would definitely want a ride in one in a heavy swell at displacement speed. I would also look at the "Twin-V" cat that is extensively used for off shore fishing out of the Florida Keys. It seems to handle off shore well, but does not have a great cabin as it does not have a deep area between the two hulls.

YOU HAVE TIME! YOU AND YOUR WIFE SHOULD TAKE TEST RIDES!

Art, do you have a Permatrim and/or trim tabs? They make a big difference on the ride in chop for these boats.

 

[nuccifilms]

art, thanks so much for that. again, my wife won't ever see 40 miles out, even with her claiming she will. and of course, she (expects) a bathroom w/door. i just can't bank too much in what she wants now, not knowing what she'll want next week.

i see myself sleeping a lot at anchor off catalina island on my 2-3 day outings, and i don't really like the liveaboard accommodations of the twin V cat. i love the T255 more than anythig, but admittedly, there's a huge gap between it and a CD22 in boat ownership. as someone said, "they're 2 different animals" i suppose that is where the CD25, RF246 and seasport 2400 all come in.

perhaps CD25 is my sweet spot, since i favor outboards?

 

[thataway]

Art,:

the pounding of a flat bottom in only a 1 foot chop at barely planing speed. At displacement speed it is OK, but rough.

as Jazamatic notes, the C Dory 22 needs both trim tabs and a permatrim foil to get the best ride. They are well worth the $$ to put in. My first C Dory did not have either. My next had just the tabs, and I added the foil. They are almost essential. You have to get the bow down, find the right speed, and tim. A one foot chop should not be a problem.

I would also look at the "Twin-V" cat that is extensively used for off shore fishing out of the Florida Keys. It seems to handle off shore well, but does not have a great cabin as it does not have a deep area between the two hulls.

Both the Twin V and Tom Cat have planing hulls, and the rides are similar. The Tom Cat does fine in the Pacific swells. But going to Catalina at 3 PM would be a thrash on most days. The Twin V has a higher bridge deck, so a little less slamming in displacement speeds. Unfortunately the Twin V does not really have a cruising interior--overnight maybe. Also many of the Twin V cats I looked at, had significant quality control issues--but Marc Grove, tells me now that they are the best he has seen.

The advice to take a number of test rides in various boats is extremely sound. Until you do that--you cannot make a determination.


nuccifilms:

i know an elderly couple that makes routine runs to catalina island on their 23' parker.

What does that have to do with what boat you buy? The Parker has either 16 or 21 degrees deadrise, and the C Dory 22 has 2 or 3 degrees. That an elderly couple takes a boat to Catalina? I have taken boats from 12 feet to 62 feet that I owned to Catalina--made the trip over 1,000 times over a period of 50 years. I have commuted daily running my 18 foot deep V Ray Hunt Design from the Isthmus to Huntington Harbor and back daily. I have gone across in flat calm, and in hurricane force winds. Any of the C Dorys (including the 16) are very capable of making the trip--but that has nothing to do with the comfort of running a C dory there--and reality vs fantasy. Until you do it and have experience--it remains fantasy.

 

[South of Heaven]

Nucci: Go bigger. If you're already questioning certain aspects of the ride and amenities then save yourself the hassle of moving up later.

IMHO, out of the boats you have mentioned: I would vote for the Rosborough 24 first.

My next choice would be the Tomcat 255.

Finally I'd choose the 25 cruiser.

All 3 are great rigs! But that's how I'd choose if someone was holding a gun to my head......These are just my own opinions, nothing more.

PS: Since you didn't mention the 26 Venture I didn't include it. BUT if it's on your radar then I'd change my votes! The 26 Venture is VERY NICE.....

 

[nuccifilms]

SOH, you seem to touch upon what my intuition tells me. i'm here to learn what i can, know what boats to narrow into sea trials, and what to look for when i do. a minute ago, i hadn't known there was much difference between the 25'and 26'? . . . the venture is on my radar now. as far as deep Vs like the parker, they're not for me. i want to troll and anchor. any planing would be in the avoidance of a storm. the RF246 will definitely get a test ride, the 26' as well, if an early 2000 model come up for sale in southern CA?

 

[thataway]

..... i want to troll and anchor. any planing would be in the avoidance of a storm. the RF246 will definitely get a test ride, the 26' as well, if an early 2000 model come up for sale in southern CA?

Buy a displacement boat. You cannot outrun a storm.

 

[JamesTXSD]

Having offered advice to you in a similar thread a few months ago, and having seen what you've posted on other forums (like having a metal ocean catamaran built, and needing a boat that can handle cyclones/hurricanes), I will offer one more piece of advice: heed what Dr. Bob is saying.

You haven't owned a boat before (as you've stated that this will be your first boat) - so you pretty much don't know what you don't know. Take a boating safety class (both you and your wife) - they are offered through US Power & Sail Squadron and the US Coast Guard Aux. You will learn a bunch, and likely meet other people who are looking for the best boat for your use.

If you are going out on a large boat to go fishing twice a month, that isn't really the same thing as "chartering a boat." DO charter a boat to take out just you and your wife - something in the size you are considering. This way, you will have the "back up" of an experienced captain AND will get a better idea of what 40 miles off-shore in a small boat really feels like. Likely, you will find that small boat charter captains are using deep-V hulls so they can get there ASAP, fish, and get back.

The idea of taking 6 hours to get off-shore to fish, spend some time fishing, AND get back before dark isn't realistic. BUT, chartering a small boat WILL show you what is possible and what equipment is good to get that job done. Buying space on a fishing head boat that is larger than anything you are considering won't give you that same experience.

C-Dorys are great boats. As are Rossboroughs. There is a guy on our island who fishes the heck out of a Twin-Vee Weekender, off-shore and in the bay. I was on the boat years ago (when a friend of ours owned it), and it is a good ride. The key is finding the right boat for the way you intend to use it.

All this said, taking a small boat 40 miles off-shore when you have zero helm experience would fool-hardy. Get plenty of experience in a more forgiving water environment first. On a boat the size you are considering. Instead of spending a grand a month on a head boat, put that money into going out on something smaller... a few trips into it should give you the experience to answer your questions and help you narrow down the boat selections that would be best for your use.

As I recall, in your previous posts here, you were gung-ho for a C-Dory, then got a "hot deal" on a lifted truck and bought that. Now, you're back to considering boats again. The purchase of the right boat for you will not be an inexpensive endeavor - put in the on-the-water time first, then narrow down the boat options.

For the record, you won't find "an early 2000 model year" 26 Venture, since they didn't start making them (first from Cape Cruiser, then C-Dory) until 2007 or so.

Good luck with the search. That's all from me.

 

[South of Heaven]

Nucci, Bob and James: What's the other forum that you guys are talking about because I thought I had a good pulse on the big ones! Lol. THT and TrawlerForum I'm an active member. iBoat and DowneastForum I'm a semi-troller! Although it's not important.....

Nucci: Since you commented on the 26 after I mentioned it then I'll rehash my earlier post. IMHO the 26 Venture is the top of the line, creme de la creme of C Dory's. Very nice boat w/ significant upgrades over the 25. I would also still put it ahead of the Cat.....But I would still take the Rosborough 246 out of your initial choices.

 

[thataway]

Nucci, Bob and James: What's the other forum that you guys are talking about because I thought I had a good pulse on the big ones! Lol. THT and TrawlerForum

PM sent. You have the correct forums.