Tomcat 255 vs Skagit Orca 27XLC

I don't think the transom issue is a design flaw as much as an odd characteristic of the TomCat. As others have posted, every boat is a compromise, and I've simply accepted the few limitations of the TomCat's design. After a year of extensive cruising, I must say that I'd rather be on the TomCat than a similarly sized monohull. Recently I took a friend who owns a Rosborough out for a ride in a two foot chop and he was extremely impressed with the ride and stability, especially when I had her up to 25-knots. Then, while drifting while fishing, the stability factor really made an impression on him. The small monohull would have been rocking and rolling.

I've run the Aspen 29 and prefer the TomCat for its simplicity, the quietness of its outboards and its overall speed, not to mention the big difference in price.

If I were able to build the perfect little cruiser, I would investigate redesigning the TomCat to increase its hull height by about 8 inches, thereby raising the transom to eliminate slapping at slow speeds or while at anchor. But considering its present performance, stability, dry ride, fuel efficiency and generous amount of space, I'd say this is close to the perfect little cruiser for the kind of boating we now do.
 
Bob,
I appreciate those thoughts. It is my understanding that the Triton Marine Group is the same bunch that used to build Sea Sport boats and I believe it is run by the Lindhout family. I do not know if Triton has actually built a Skagit Orca since they took over from Fluid Marine. I don't see any Skagit owners on C-Brats and Triton is not the best marketer. I would love to know if anyone is still buying Skagit Orca boats as they appeared to be very nice boats. Does anyone have any information on this?
 
We have the TC24 and tunnel clearance is not a big issue. When drifting the deck is not in the water. It does hang low, especially with full tanks and lots of gear in the cockpit. I wonder if the addition of the Armstrong bracket acts like a fulcrum to push the deck on the 255 down.
 
George,
I have been intrigued by the Aspen C90 since I first read about it. What were your impressions of the Proa hull design and the single inboard diesel? Larry Graf seems to know a thing or two about catamarans but unfortunately all the boats I seem to be interested in are in the Pacific NW which makes it difficult for me to see and touch them here in KY. I would love to get your opinion about the Aspen if you wouldn't mind sharing. Thanks
 
Cfoster":95qvnp46 said:
Capt. Matt,
Thanks for your honest, real world input. Are the Tomcats still made with the low tunnel or have they corrected it? If they haven't they must not perceive it to be a problem. <stuff clipped>
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The production levels of the TC255 have never been high enough to generate the cash that would be necessary to do a redesign and make a new mold. That being said, I'm not sure the factory even knows of this issue so I don't think the above is quite correct. Either way, it's for sure not going to get changed until the market comes around considerably and it makes sense to invest in a redesign.

Cfoster":95qvnp46 said:
I am concerned about previous comments that there is no in between speed with a Tomcat in that it's either displacement speed of 5-6 kts or on plane at 16-18 kts. Obviously as a Great Loop boat top end is not as big a consideration as slow cruising in the ICW, the canal system, and the Western Rivers. Thanks for your help and let me know if you think of anything else that you think I should know.
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I agree with Bob that perhaps it's not quite 16kts to get on plane. However, there's definitely a range of speeds some place above about 7kts and below 12-16kts in which you don't want to operate. At those speeds, the boat is a bit nose up and wallowing. Moreover, there's a significant amount of wash coming up on the engines at that speed that doesn't exist at faster or slower speeds. However, I would say the same thing is observed in single hull planing boats too. E.g. there's always a speed range in the transition between displacement and planing in which the boat operates somewhat poorly (bad fuel mileage, less than super handling and a bow up attitude).
 
Regarding the poor performance in between hull speed and planing speeds, Bob is right in stating that he could get on plane at 14-knots with his different props and PermaTrims. I can get on plane at about 16-knots, but the boat 's angle is a bit better at 18-knots, and that's where it feels right. And yes, the engines are awash at those in-between speeds because the nose is pointing upward. But like others have said, this is typical of planing hulls. So for my TomCat, I avoid between 8 to 16 knots. Once you get used to this, it's no big deal. You slow down when necessary, and then the beauty of the TomCat is that it runs so well at 20-30 knots...even 35.
 
If cruising between 7 and 12-14 knots is a requirement then I'd look at other boats. The 24 TC was definitely better because the Armstrongs sure add weight aft, but there are many advantages to the later model. Where we boat it's easy to stay out of the transition range of speeds. All the posters have said they all are compromises -- true indeed. Good luck!

Dusty
Unlimited tonnage ocean master (Retired)
 
As for the rear design of the Tom Cat 222. The boat started life as a Tom Cat 24--with lighter motors, no full transom, and no bracket. There was minimal--but some aft tunnel drag.

Then the bracket--bigger and heavier engines, fish boxes, fu ll transom, with lazarett was added--more weight. More aft tunnel drag and slap.

If you look at the Tom Cat 30 (Black Feather Marine or Chil Kat Marine) There are similar hulls. The boat operates very well at 8 knots with an kicker in the middle--8 or so HP. There is good tunnel clearance--and the boat is designed properly.


So who "designed" the Tom Cat 255? How did this boat evolve--or was it just "Lets put a different cabin on a hull, extend it slightly etc....? unknown_001.sized.png

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Remember that the 30 footer is 12 foot beam, so it is a lot different boat.
There already a small nacelle in the front of the Tom Cat--does very little. A larger one, would probably not help a lot. If you read Malcom Tennant's books he preferred rounded surfaces in the tunnel.

6" or 8" increase of hull depth--not sure what would be the better, but modeling would probably tell us. In either case, the ride would be improved at low speeds as well as at high speeds. The tunnel drag is a real limiting factor. It may contribute to static stability--but how much?
 
Note that the difficulty of running in that transition speed between 8 and 15 or so knots is common to the Skagit Orca design as well. In fact it's true for almost any Deep V hulled boat.
 
What Matt said, the skagit is not a flat bottom boat like the c-dorys ( for those that did not know). All deep v's suffer from not being able to plane at slower speeds and having to climb over their own bow wake to do so. the trade off is higher speed in rough water and a softer ride.

The Tomcat is like a cross over between the two. I have ran next to a tc24 and have driving several tc225's and I believe that the tc24 is a better balanced and better running boat that is more inline with the CD concept of small, fuel efficient, over night boat. It just suffered from being ugly as hell to a lot of people. I kind of liked it but i have a thing for oddball machines, datsun 510's, kz 1000's, c-dorys you know stuff like that.

I think the top side of the tc24 did need a redesign but in a attempt to be all things to all people the tc225 ended up to big , to heavy , and to much weight in the ass end. does it run great at speed (25 to 35 mph) ? Hell yes!! I love to drive the dam things, I had Warrens up to 55mph one day coming back from fishing and it was great. Good thing I was not paying for the gas that day :wink

As for your original question of using the tom cat for a long cruise. I think its wonderful platform for just that.
 
Yes, the deeper the "V" the less well the boat runs in semi displacement speed ranges--from displacement--about 5 knots to planing speed--a deep V may be 18 or so knots. There are some boats which run well in this speed range--and these are the down east type of boats--also sea brite skiff type.

I have to take exception with the thought that it does not "pay" for the company to build a new hull mold. Look at what Ranger is doing--that is most evident to this group. But another cat has come on the scene in the last 2 to 3 years and is wildly successful. There is a waiting list for these hulls, and despite excellent sales, the builder has just completed a new mold for their 27. This is the Ameracat: http://www.ameracat.com/.

The boat is being used by a number or professional guides along the Gulf Coast, the word gets out that the boat has a very good ride (good tunnel clearance), and the boats sell. My caracal has a bottom hull design similar to the Tom Cat--and rides as well, despite being much shorter. One difference is that there is good tunnel clearance.

If the builder of the Tom Cat were to improve the hull design--build a new hull mold, --maybe make it a 27---with a bit more room in the head etc. Along with good advertising, it would be a success.

What we are hearing from a number of "boat searchers" is that there is no really good cruising boat, outboard powered in this size range. With the increased tunnel clearance, the boat will do better at higher semi displacement speeds, and ride better at higher speeds into chop.
 
Bob,
Looks like a nice boat. Also looks like all center consoles. I wonder if they have any plans to build a pilot house/cabin boat? I also see they show a lot of E-Tecs on the boats featured on their web site.
 
******

As an TomCat owner,
other than the tunnel clearance,
to us it is a near puuuurfect package
for marketing all across America, in initial sales, or resale,
and for many, many other reasons such as...
coastguard requirements, insurance, height clearance, trailering, dual engines, etc., etc.

My first mate was sold on the stability of the cat.
The best marketing tool........lol

******
 
I have heard that Americat has had a lot of serious structural problems . Its is a blatant copy of Twin Vee and was on the edge of getting sued out of existence,much like Cape Cruiser. If you want to see a nice planing catamaran ,look at Freeman Boat Works. They have blown Twin Vee and Americat "out of the water" in the Louisiana charter market .
One of the easiest places to improve the Tomcat hulls would be to add lifting strakes or chines .That is one of the things that makes the Twin Vee/Americat hulls lift and run so well.
Another interesting boat is the Mamba and/or Twin Vee hydrofoil. Its a true hydrofoil and a very interesting [not new however]concept for small recreational boats . Interesting thought to apply this technology to the Tomcat.
They had this boat in Miami and all that ran it were very impressed.
Marc
 
Marc.

You have pushed Twin Vee for a long time. My personal inspection of Twin Vee convinced me that it was a boat I did not want to buy.

What substantiation--other than rumors (possibly from Twin Vee builder)--of problems with Ameracats? They have not shown up on the "Hull Truth"--and there have been a number of reports of problems with Twin Vees there. Granted that the Ameracats are sold from the factory--no dealers.

Yes, the Freeman Cats are very well built and ride well--and also being used in the charter market--as are several others.

The object of my post was that there are boat builders who are successful and are selling boats by building what is wanted by buyers.

There is a mold for a cabin house for the Ameracat--but I am not "pushing" one brand. There is a 27 or 31 being built with a cabin house for diving.
They are center consoles---but a pilot house could be built.
 
You can Buy a Pilothouse from Pacific Pilothouse , Wasn't trying to sell you a boat or push Twin Vee , just pointing out that Americat and Twin Vee are great riding boats and there are lessons that the Tomcat hull could learn .Not everyone airs their dirty laundry on the internet [hull truth],and perfection is a lofty goal.Although whatever vintage Twin Vee you are referring to may not meet your standards ,I have many,many happy customers with them.
Marc
 
As far as I can tell by the websites mentioned, none of the other cats have any cruising accommodations. They are all day use, open boats for warm climates.

Are there any catamaran alternatives to the Tom Cat for cruisers?
 
The semi displacement downeast hull seems to be a great cruising plateform you can cruise at 6 knots and it stays flat at 8, 10, 12, all the way up to around 24 knots its really good in rough water, a following sea can be a little tricky until you figure out how to run it in a following sea. and then its not bad at all. My Seaway 25 Coastal Cruiser did a great job crossing the straits of georgia Queen Charlotte Sound Johnstone straits in B.C. it did better than any deep vee and I've taken six or seven different ones on that same trips.some time its to rough to run fast and the waves are to close together to plane out, and trawler speeds toss you around to much. but about 14 to 18 knots on the down east semi displacement hull cut right through them and so far i like the down east semi displacement hull the best.
 
My 27 will run from 13 to 30 knots on plane. And as much as I like running fast its the most comfortable at 13 to 16 knots. Sits in the water well and feels solid. I get the same fuel mileage at either speed so it does not matter, it's just depends on how fast I want go and comfortable I want to be or the sea will allow me to be.
 
Larry H,
There a fair number of cat cruisers--Glacier bay 2690 and World Cat 27 both have bunks and small galleys--but not up to Tom Cat room. There is also the Motor Cat 30 and 29, The Aero Cats, the Aspen 28, Pro Kat, Also a number of others--I saw one this AM--@ 29 feet which had twin double bunks and a nice pilot house. The problem is when you get to this size, the beam increases and not only more expensive, but more difficult to trailer.

Today I would go with a semi custom cat for cruising.

Also a number of pilot house cats are available in Australia and New Zealand.

The drop in place pilot house does not really make a cruising boat unfortunately.
 
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