To keep your C-Dory in the water or not

Shelly-IV has been kept in salt water all summer. The previous owners
did not own a trailer. There are some subtle signs of this, too. The
inline fuse holders had salt deposits on them when I replaced them. There
is some corrosion on the steering wheel, table leg and fuel tank
switcher. Overall, though, the boat held up well. We'll be keeping it
brackish to fresh water all summer. We bought a trailer, so I'll be
able to pull it when I want to. This will make impending hurricanes
and the like so much easier to deal with. Also, hope to trailer some distance
and go boating elsewhere in the US.

Mike
 
My CD-22 Cruiser spends about half a year in the water at Shasta Lake and the rest of the time on the trailer. It has bottom paint, having been added when we kept the boat at Oxbow Marina in the California Delta. It shares a slip at Bridge Bay Marina along I-5 and the Pit River Bridge with our 24 ft. pontoon boat. The CD has the slip during the cool months (Nov-April), and the pontoon boat during the warm ones (May-October).

We also have a second slip there for my Sea Ray 265 Sedan Bridge, which has bottom paint and stays in the water year round.

The first slip costs us $210 with a locker, and the second one $220 with two lockers, totaling $5160 a year. Gas at the resort is $4.50 a gallon currently!

Joe.
 
I keep my car on the land and my boat in the water year round.

My CD25 has been in the water continuously since July 2004 except for 100hrs engine maintenance in fall of 2004 and bottom painting and anchor locker drain hole fix in Dec 2005.

The water at my winter dock is brackish and the summer mooring is salt. In the photo, ice is kept at bey this last week by de-icers on the dock. The bottom was initially coated with no-sanding primer and the gel coat was de-waxed only, no sanding and 2 coats of Petit Unipoxy anti-fouling was applied two weeks before the first launch in 2004. 3 coats of Interlux Micron Extra were applied during the 2005 haul.

There are no blisters and probably won't be any in the future since the entire boat was laminated with vinylester resin and gelcoat including the hull, deck and house. Vinylester is considered by many to be superior to epoxy for moisture/blister resistance and I do not know of an instance of blisters on a vinylester hull. The Petit unipoxy acquired scuz after the first summer season. After applying the Micron Extra a simple run up to speed (31mph) cleans the bottom since the Micron Extra wears away like a bar of soap and leaves fresh paint that has not lost strength. Antifouling ability is determined more by the thickness of the coating til it wears down too much and needs more. Some guys up here paint the bottom with alternating colors so they can see when the top coat has worn enough to need repainting and when the undercoat starts to show thru. The waterline, however gets scuzzy in the summer, and I will likely raise it again the next time I do the bottom. No fouling happens once the water gets below 50 degrees or so.

Miss_Pam_in_winter.sized.jpg
 
Pete,
Is this a special order 25 laminated with all vinyl ester? If all of the C Dory hulls are laminated with all vinyl ester resin, then we are all a lot better off than I think--although the incidence of true osmotic blistering is rare in C Dories.

My understanding is that the modern C Dory hulls have a layer of vinly ester resin (probably with a 1 1/2 oz mat layer) under the gelcoat. but the the majority of the boat is laminated with polyester resin. I understood that Cook high buff gelcoat (Isophenolic polyester) was being used on the C Dory line. (The only actual laminate schedule I find is for the Skagit Orca and the Tom Cat 24--so it may be different for others in the line). Vinyl ester resin or isophenolic polyester resin is considerably more expensive than the common orthophenolic polyester resin.

I have to differ with the premise that vinyester resin is more resistant to water permeation that epoxy. The conventional wisdom is that epoxy is more resistant to water intrusion than vinlyester. Vinyl ester resins have epoxy additives to help increase the resistance to water permeation. Epoxies are more expensive, plus the bonding between vinyl ester and polyester with primary bonding are more comperable with construction methods.

David Pascoe in his book on buying outboard boats, comments that the "tendancy of manufactuers going to all isophenolic resin laminates or a layer of vinyl ester resin only on the outer layer of the hull in the hopes it will reduce blistering. Certainly it will reduce the problem, but its unlikely to completely resolve the problem".

Yes, good boat yards/owners put on alternate layers of different colored paint to be sure that all of the boat is completely covered with layers of fresh bottom paint. But if it was only the thickness of bottom paint that prevented growth, why would there be boats which have many layers of bottom paint, but still need new paint? The reason is that there is "active" indredient in the bottom paints--and that has to be renewed.
 
If you google vinylester blisters you can come up with lots of info. For example see:

http://www.zahnisers.com/repair/blister/blister1.htm

The following is from a paper posted at the above link and explains the situation of epoxy and vinylester. If you have the time or inclination click on the link and read the whole paper, it is quite good in my opinion in expaining the cause and how the blister problem has beed addressed.

"THE BARRIER COAT:

Following removal of hydrolyzed material, drying and replacement of glass as necessary, a barrier coat is applied. Until 1988, epoxies were generally used for this because of their high physical strength and waterproof qualities. In practical use, however, epoxies were less than ideal. Their application is difficult, requiring exact measuring and mixing habits, warm temperatures and dry atmosphere to achieve claimed physical properties. In the field, it has been noted that epoxies are only marginally tolerant of polyester substrates and seem to reject acidic laminates over time. The results are often blistered barrier coats and reduced protection and durability.

Vinylester resins have increasingly become the standard barrier coat used for blister repair, in the mid-Atlantic region at least. Designed for high corrosion resistance and high physical strength, they combine the good water proof lab specs of epoxy with the ease of application of a polyester resin. The theoretical "waterproofness" for equal skin thickness is marginally less than epoxy but because of it's flexibility and lower cost, vinylester resin can be applied in thicker skins, greatly increasing waterproofness. Thickness is an important factor in a barrier coat. Vinylester is much more compatible with the polyester than epoxies. The bonding strength of vinylesters to the original polyester is better than either polyesters or epoxies. We have used vinylester for barrier coasts exclusively now for over seven years.

As a barrier coat, we apply six rolled coats to arrive at a thickness of .030". This is two - three times the thickness of most epoxy systems. On top of the barrier coat, a vinylester sanding primer is applied and largely sanded off to smooth the bottom. By using the gelkote and laminate removing tool initially and careful filling and sanding, the bottom fairness is quite good and meets most owner's requirements. If race quality finish is required, this is accomplished by many hours of hand fairing.
Once fair, two coats of antifouling completes the repair. The boat is cleaned and launched. "

My 2004 CD25 was not special order, it was, I believe the norm for 2004 CD25. During 2004 the CD25 was being built in the new factory and the CD22 in the old original facility. During a phone call my questions regarding the layup led me to the plant manager at the CD25 facility who told me the 25's were being build entirely with vinylester and the CD22's with polyester. He told me he should know because he was in charge and the drums in front of him were vinylester. I would think that as the construction methods were updated and refined and as the cost of resin increased with the price of oil in the last few years that the resin used in current hulls may not be the same as before. I don't know what they are using now.

At the time I had my dealer in Florida apply the bottom paint, I was also told that epoxy barrier coat would be redundant and not neccessary.

I feel fortunate that my boat is all vinylester and have no qualms about leaving it in the drink all year round. If anyone does barrier coat or apply bottom paint, I would suggest that they do not sand or pressure wash the gelcoat which would likely increase the water permeability of the hull and lead to more rapid hydrolysis.
 
Pete,
It will be interesting to talk to the factory and find out what the history is as well as what is used currently. I have sent Jeff M an E mail to find out the lamination schedule. (I have had the factory tell me things which were not true). If you really got a different gel coat and vinyl ester boat, I would be surprised.

I am well aware of the Zahnisers article--had read it in the past, including the various papers it refers to, read it before I posted my reply above and re-read it again. Remember this is a boat yard who does repairs and justifies their methods--and for the most part I agree with much of what is said in this article. They also note the high costs of a proper repair.

I have been studying osmosis and the repairs since the early 70's--and examined boats suffering, the type of repairs all over the world and the results of repairs. (including ultrasonics to look at the aequacy of repairs) Read Pascoe's articles on repairs--probably the best: this outlines all of his articles on the subject.http://www.yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm

Note that Zahniser's article states right above the part you quoted: "Epoxies, if done well, offer much higher resistance to moisture but are less compatible with the original hull resin and are very costly and hard to work. Vinylester resins offer a high degree of durability at a cost in between epoxies and polyesters and though harder than polyester to work, experience permits us to use vinylester for all our layup work these days." Also in an earlier part of this article they discuss laminating an 18 oz layer of cloth. For the most part others who do this prefer epoxy because of the superior bonding property. (for the bonding I refer you to multiple articles on the chemistry of epoxies vs vinyl esters vs polyesters)

Where I disagree with their appraoch is the bond with vinyl ester. One has to understand the primary bonding and crosslinging vs the seconding bonding process. What they say is that epoxy is "incompatable"--and don't really address the superior adherance. The other places I disagree is in not removing the thru hulls. To do a fully through job the thru hulls have to be removed. Also the boat has to be dried out. Most boats are not dried adequately--the best way is peel, steam cleaning;hot water washing and then hot vacuum bagging. The next best is tenting the bottom of the boat, sealing the inside of the boat and using dehumidifiers and heat. After one of our local yards switched to a proper repair, the incidence of reblistering has virtually disappeared. There was a lot of resistance because of the lack of familiarity of working with epoxy and the greater cost--once they had experience they were sold.

Regards,

Bob Austin
 
4 coats expoxy..2 coats anti fouling paint ..thats all you need to keep you boat in the water w/no harm ......Boat in action in a moments notice. Alot easier than having to launch and fight the crowds. With my Tomcat a trailer was 10k...I would have to buy a new truck to pull 10000lbs...and pay up to 100$ per mo to store the trailer!! the $ 200 mo berth was well worth it and you will use your boat more... even go solo.
I had my 22angler in the water for almost two years with just bottom paint......no damage...was able to go go alot and put 400hrs having fun!!

Dick E
2007 255 Tomcat "Shirley Mae"
 
Bob,
I believe what the factory told me, but would have to perform a chemical analysis to verify. In the meantime, I have no blisters and I am sure that either thinner epoxy or thicker vinylester would work just fine as a barrier coat.
I would also like to point out that the superior bonding allegation well known in the boating industry was promulgated primarily by the Gougeon brothers who had an agenda to sell viscous epoxy resin and additives under their house brand with a significant markup. Don,t get me wrong, epoxy is great stuff, I just don't think it is the holy grail some think it is. What ever happened to the epoxy saturated WEST boats anyway?

At the end of the day , most resposible boatbuilders are using vinylester in their layups today below the waterline and not epoxy. This includes the multimillion dollar jobs where a few hundred or few thousand dollars are negligible sums. Why don't they use epoxy instead of vinylester?

I'll be interested to know if Jeff knows anymore.
 
We have been thinking about perhaps renting a slip at Blaine for maybe June - September, not sure if you can even do that...slip rental and tow vehicle gas for the 130 mile round trip from Fall City to Blaine on any kind of regular basis, say twice a month, is going to be a wash, or even advantage to slip rental. On the other hand, that would make Central and South Sound overnighters very difficult. Interestingly, your two slips just about equal our boat payment!

Sea Wolf":3bvh6kfq said:

The first slip costs us $210 with a locker, and the second one $220 with two lockers, totaling $5160 a year. Gas at the resort is $4.50 a gallon currently!

Joe.
 
Bobs info is a really good one .......if you have had you boat "spashed"in the water for a while..................I was told by many that if you are going to do the water barrier thing...... it was BEST if the boat was done virgin new.... before being splashed... .otherwise its very hard to do it right and hold...With my new boat "Shirley Mae" I belive the workers lightly blasted the hull....for adhersion.........4 coat expoxy...then 2 coats anti fouling.
It can be done after .....but HAS to be completly dry

Dick E
Orinda



Where I disagree with their appraoch is the bond with vinyl ester. One has to understand the primary bonding and crosslinging vs the seconding bonding process. What they say is that epoxy is "incompatable"--and don't really address the superior adherance. The other places I disagree is in not removing the thru hulls. To do a fully through job the thru hulls have to be removed. Also the boat has to be dried out. Most boats are not dried adequately--the best way is peel, steam cleaning;hot water washing and then hot vacuum bagging. The next best is tenting the bottom of the boat, sealing the inside of the boat and using dehumidifiers and heat. After one of our local yards switched to a proper repair, the incidence of reblistering has virtually disappeared. There was a lot of resistance because of the lack of familiarity of working with epoxy and the greater cost--once they had experience they were sold.

Regards,

Bob Austin[/quote]
 
To answer Pete's questions: There are still lots of epoxy saturated boats being custom built--both west systems and other epoxy systems if you follow the boat building trade. They range from canoes/kayaks to 100 footers. Yes, Gougeon brothers promotes their products, but that is not the source of the "better adherance of epoxy than polyester in a secondary bond". Not only is there lots of scientific (independant) literature", but I had to do some of my own testing when I was building boats.

The reason that epoxy is not used between layers of poyester (most gel coats are polyester either isophenolic or orthophenolic)--although there are both outside gelcoats and inner layers of vinyl ester opaque gel coats being used:

The primary bond between vinyl ester and polyester is good. Primary bond is when the resins are not fully cured and can cross link. Although epoxy will stick very well to fiberglass laminated with polyester resins, polyester/vinyl ester resins do not adhere well to epoxy.--the " incompatability" noted by Zahniser's web site, so to say. Just like "hot coating" bottom paint turns out to not be a good idea.

As for epoxy use-- in boats--actually many of the really expensive and the one offs are made with all epoxy resins. I have a number of friends who build high end custom boats--and they use almost exclusively epoxy--and exotics. Interestingly enough as we were looking at the marketablity of our ultrasonic testing devices for hull lamination, the very high end builders who only made very few boats were most interested, and the mass production builders were not. When you pay a several million on up for a boat, you like to be assured that it is properly built. If you pay less than a million or so, often times it is a "crap shoot". The reason that most small boats are built with polyester resin in a mold is that is the cheapest way to build a boat--and the the majority of the public wants "cheap". Maybe better put is "best value"--but the general public does not understand the difference between a well built boat and a poorly built boat--and many production boats are poorly built. There are boats which eventaully go back to the factory and a hull is swapped out, or even the entire boat is replaced. These are kept quiet for publicity reasons, but some builders have more known problems than others.

Back to in the water--C Dory still suggests that epoxy coating be done on the bottom before the boat is bottom painted.
 
thataway":1dh12bpi said:
most gel coats are polyester either isophenolic or orthophenolic

Bob, do you mean isophtalic and orthophtalic? I never heard of the ones you mention

thataway":1dh12bpi said:
C Dory still suggests that epoxy coating be done on the bottom before the boat is bottom painted.

This may be a new reccomedation from the factory (although I haven't seen it on any of the brochures) based on possible use of lower cost polyester resins and some recent cases of green gelcoat polyester resin laminated CD22's that were kept in fresh water having developed blisters. I don't know what they are using now, but I am certain the 2004 CD 25's were all vinylester layup.

Anyone hear of any blisters on any older CD25's?
 
1. Our Tomcat is kept in the water 100% of the time.

2. It takes about 5 minutes to lower and warm up the motors, throw off the lines, and GO. In the past 3 months, we have put almost 100 hours on the engines.

3. As heavy as the Tomcat is, there is no way we would use it as frequently if it was on a trailer- especially in the winter. We get strong northers and very low tides, which make ramp launching and retreival exciting.

4. The boat has 4 coats of epoxy and 2 coats of bottom paint. The bottom paint is of a type that does not lose its effectiveness if the boat is kept out of the water for any length of time.
 
Jeff Messmer responded to my question about the laminate in the C Dory 25 and TC 255 by refering to Thomas Latham

The report is:

"At least the skin coat on the 25C & TC are applied with vinyl-ester resin.

Our gelcoat is not vinyl-ester but rather an ISO/NPG which has good resistance to water permeation. I have attached specifics on the gel for you.

Thomas"

The specs show that they use the Cook Composites High Gloss Buffback Gel coat I had refered to in an earlier post.
 
I have been following and trying to understand this timely thread. Here's what I have gotten so far.
1. If I keep the boat on the trailer and put it in fresh or salt water one or two days at a time I don't need bottom paint.
2. If I keep it mostly in fresh water I don't need bottom paint but it is recommended.
3. If I keep it in salt or brackish water bottom paint is necessary.
4. For application of bottom paint, the entire boat, inside and outside, must be dry, and the hull skirted.
5. A minimum of 4 coats epoxy and two coats antifouling paint should be applied.
Questions
a. Should the hull be sanded, blasted, or treated with chemical for adhesion? Which, if any?
b. Is their a recommended effective and long lasting bottom paint?
c. How much should this cost for a 16 footer?
d. Are any shops in the Seattle area recommended?
Thanks again for letting me audit this seminar without having taken any prerequisites! :oops:
 
Marty:

I reviewed the work order for the bottom paint on our new Tomcat.

1. The bottom was de-waxed and lightly sanded (the wax comes from the mold in which the hull is laid at the factory).

2. Four coats of epoxy were then applied with light sanding between coats 2 and 3.

3. This was followed by three coats of Micron CSC paint. This paint remains active if the boat is taken out of the water and left on the trailer for a while. Most other bottom paints become deactivated if allowed to dry. Having said this, different bottom paints are recommended in different geographical areas, depending on local water temperature, marine life, etc. Your boatyard will know.

This is the standard bottom treatment for boats kept in the water 100% of the time in our part of the country.

4. The cost for the 26 foot Tomcat was 2250 before taxes.

5. Bottom paint has to be reapplied evrey 1-3 years, depending on the type of paint, how the boat is used, and the local marine growth. Of course, the epoxy will not have to be reapplied, so the recurring cost will be much lower.

Sandblasting is absolutely not necessary for a new boat. There are also anecdotal horror stories of boats developing widespread blisters after being sandblasted, presumably because the process fractured the outermost layers of the hull and allowed water entry.

Concerning statement #2 in your message- at least in theory, fresh water is considered more dangerous than salt water as far as blister formation is concerned because of its lower osmolality as compared to the hull resins.

Talking of resins, it is my unconfirmed impression that the smaller C-Dory hulls are laid use polyester resins; these are more blister prone than vinlyester or epoxy.

One other thought- if you are in an area where you are likely to beach the boat often- well, you are going to rub the paint off in a hurry. I do not believe that this is an issue in Seattle!
 
dotnmarty":3urniq8l said:
I have been following and trying to understand this timely thread. Here's what I have gotten so far.
....
5. A minimum of 4 coats epoxy and two coats antifouling paint should be applied.
Questions
a. Should the hull be sanded, blasted, or treated with chemical for adhesion? Which, if any?
b. Is their a recommended effective and long lasting bottom paint?
c. How much should this cost for a 16 footer?
...

As for #5 - depends on what type you are applying. Most 'systems'
come with directions. I would follow the directions. Same for 'a'.

Paint: go with what works where you boat. Ask the marina what
they are applying. Ablative paints are nice because they limit the
buildup of useless epoxy paint on the hull. Some people argue they
are not good for the environment because the paint wears off
in the water instead of you sanding it off on land using a sander
with a vaccum attachment. Dunno.
 
Marty: I think by now you have gathered that if your boat is going to be spending a lot of time in fresh water you will be more happy with bottom paint. I always had SEAVIEW West do my work, but there is a guy down on the ship canal named Duncan Mcauley that is very knowledgeable as well. Don't know what he calls his company. You might be able to find him in the phone book. When I was living aboard in seattle the divers got to where they wouldn't do routine cleaning on my hull when I was using Trinidad, an ablative bottom paint. They said environmental rules wouldn't allow them to scrub it in the water. So I switched to Micron CSC. That stuff was pretty good paint too. One time I moored the boat in lake union while the trinidad was still on there. After about a week the gunk on the bottom started dying, and was falling off in sheets. Pretty surprising to see.
 
Marty: We used CSR Marine on Lake Union. They charged ~$2000 for 6 coats epoxy and 2 coats bottom paint on a 22, so your 16 should be a bit less. Their phone number is 206-632-2001 - I spoke to and dealt with Cathy, she seemed to know her stuff. As our C-dory was going in, we saw another one on the way out of the facility with the same treatment so they have done at least two C-dory hulls.
 
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