Thataway

I am going to share the information forewarded to me by the "engineer" at C Dory:

"There is approximately 22” of height between the top of the tank and the hull side vent fitting. This height can not be increased. It seems to me that Mr. Austin’s problem is indeed caused by fuel expanding in the tank. When a boat is in a lift it will receive reflected sunlight from the water on the bottom of the boat which will heat the fuel tank to a temperature much higher than if the boat were in the water, on a trailer or in a rack. Please note that 24” of 5/8” fuel line will hold only .032 gallons of fuel, not much. Mr. Austin must be made aware that the tanks can not be completely full when the boat is on the lift. He is correct to have the boat stern down when in the lift.:

My comment: although .032 of a gallon of fuel does not seem like much to him--it is over 4 oz--and there have been a number of times that fuel has come out of vent line, which means that more than four ounces is being pushed up into the vent and any excess overflows.

He is absolutely wrong about the sunlight reflecting on the water for a number of reasons, the most obvious is that when the boat is in a lift, there is no sunlight reflecting off the water, because the boat is less than a foot from a deck, with a 6 foot sea wall, so that virtually no sunlight gets to the water at any time under the boat. The heat is caused by the sunlight on the hull direcly. This same event can occur on a trailer, unless there is a specific defect in my tank vent.

I am also told that due to miscommunication the cushions and back cover were not sent. But there is this warning from the engineer:

"Beyond being unsanitary, the gap between the counter and fiddle will create mildew in the hot and humid climate found in Florida. This becomes an esthetic and rot concern as well. Carpentry and QA must be made more vigilant."

So now I am really curious as to what I will be getting and how I can make it more "Sanitary".....

On the positive side--we have begun to lay out the navigational instruments and start hook up there.
 
Maybe Florida's Lemon Law should be extended to boats!
Sorry to hear of all your problems, Bob. We went through something similiar a few years ago when we bought an early production model of the Mainship 34 Pilot.(hull # twenty eight). Leads me to believe that year one production boats, like car models, are best avoided.
Tom
www.TomClare.com
 
I am not worried about Lemon laws--they will not apply to boats; probably anywhere. Also I hope that people understand that I am posting the problems for others to be aware of what to be aware of, not only as complaints. I spent some time this evening to see how the hatch can be best repaired. The hatch will be removed, the screw holes filled with epoxy with high density filler, the edge of the hatch flange will be sanded and then epoxy applied, a layer or two of glass will be placed over the edges of the cored deck with epoxy and faired with epoxy and filler to bring the size of the cutout to the proper size and then I will center the hatch, put on appropiate amount of bedding compound and screw it in place. Why do it my self? Because I know it will be done correctly. We have built and restored boats which never had a leak, so I know how to do it properly. I will document this with pictures. Hopefully this will help C Dory to build a quality product.
 
thataway":2cq0mgqt said:
I will document this with pictures. Hopefully this will help C Dory to build a quality product.
Click to expand...

I hope you post them in the "Thataway" album, Bob. AFAIC, the albums are a gold mine, filled with great modifications, repairs, and techniques.

I wish I could remember the album of the CD-22 that, like the Phoenix, rose from the dead (no cabin, damaged hull from a rollover) and emerged looking better than new. Oh well, hopefully some Brat will remember and post a link.

Don
 
Started at 5 Am, by 9:30, I had the old hatch out, the rim sanded and the area where there was a gap filled with 3/8" material, then the entire inner liner of the hatch opening with 2 layers of 6 oz glass. This is hardening currently. I photograhed the hole drilled all of the way thru the deck, the seveal holes drilled at the very edge of the inner lip(screws were not holding into the fiberglass), there was less than 40% of the aluminum hatch flange which had any bedding compound on it. Only three screws had adequate bedding compound--the rest were absolutely clean, and several had no bedding compound around the screw holes. The core looks to be Nadi cell, not balsa as I first thought. It has been faired, and epoxyied, then buttered with thickened epoxy--the screw holes were all filled with epoxy and short fibersand filler. It will be far better than the factory job and not give any problems for many years. The question still is what other fittings were not properly beded. There is some person at the factory does not understand how to install hardware. I am not going to take all of the hardware off, but if I find one more leak, I wil pull all fittings and check them. I will post the photos this evening when I have finished the project--lets just hope for a dry day--just have acouple of thin layers of plastic taped under the hatch to catch dust and drips!
 
The fuel venting problem is a puzzler. The tank vent fitting is either in fuel or not. I would think it shouldn't be since your tank isn't completely full, but if expanded or tilted I can see it getting into the fuel. But then you have the 22" long (at least) 5/8" hose going to the outside vent fitting.

Shouldn't the fuel gurgle and dissipate within the hose before reaching outside? Where is the tank vent fitting, well below the top of the tank perhaps? Does the vent assy have any sort of one-way valve within it that would trap the fuel to later expand it out (this seems probably since the engineer talks about 4oz of fuel for one load of hose fuel).
 
It took 9 hours to remove, clean, beef up the deck where it had been cut out too much, and I have some of the photos up. (7 out of 38) Basically, I used a small portable drum sander and sanded the edge of the deck opening. There is about 1/4" fiberglass, then about 5/8" foam core (Nada foam?) and then 1/8" inner lining of the deck . There were some voids between the core and deck. One screw hole was drilled directly thru the deck and inner core, and there was very little bedding compound around the screws. This would have leaked in the future, as well as the void which I filled where the hatch was cut out too much and not properly centered. (photo showing only 4 of 14 screws had any bedding adhering posted.) Also all screws, plates etc should be cleaned with a solvant Laquor thinner)before using with bedding compound (I used 4200). None of these had been cleaned (often seen in factory boats). The scimpy bedding compound was removed from the flange of the hatch and the glass. All holes were filled (including the 4 which only caught an edge of the glass or missed the deck glass, because the hatch was installed way to the port side of the oversized cut out. A coat of West system Epoxy was painted on the foam and glass, then a thickened coat was applied, to fill the foam ends, and form a smooth base for the glass. Two layers of 6 oz glass tape was applied over the build up. The port corner, where it was leaking was built up 3/8" with peanut butter thickness epoxy/filler. After all of this had started to harden, I used a Xacto blade to trim the epoxy and glass. Then I faired the inside of the cutout, with more epoxy, cabosol, short mill fibers and medium density filler. This was applied with a plastic spatchula. When this was hard, the area was sanded, and the hatch dry fitted. New holes were marked, so that the hatch would be centered, and have good glass under the screws. Adequate bedding compond (4200) was was applied after frame and screws were cleaned with mechanical means and laquor thinner. When the screws were tightened, plenty of bedding ozzed out. The inside was checked for bedding and clearance. The inner liner was put in place. No leaks! It is now done properly! I just worry about how many other places in the boat were not properly bedded.
 
I have recieved direct feed back from Jeff Messmer. I forewarded a number of photos to him detailing the problem with the hatch. Also I have finally received a number of answers to questions about where to cut to put in the water tank, about the battery switch and about the aft seat cover and cushions (They are being shipped today--I hope).

I do belive that there are quality control issues--and I believe that Jeff recognizes this. The quality control issues don't mean that C Dory doesn't build a good boat. They do. There is a world of difference between the C Dory 22 and the Tom Cat 255. Not only is the boat about twice the volume and more than twice the weight--but there are a number of sophisticated systems and a much more complex manufacturing requirments.

I did the cut for the air conditioner. To cut a 14 x 14" hole in the top of the cabin roof, gave me some pause! I'll have to report that the laminate is excellent. There is about 1/4" glass, including what looks to be a layer of coremat) a 1/2" layer of balsa and 3/16 of glass on the inside. The laminate layup is as good as I have seen (One of my projects is analysis of boat laminates and I cut up 20 hurricane damaged boats, to examine the laminates, and do ultrasonic testing on these samples.) I will also be doing bond testing/ultrasonic testing on the 14 x 14" piece I took out of the roof.

First I made the oak backing blocks. I used scrap lumber to make a template--scribing with a compass, then cutting this to double check the fit. I used step routing to make the contour, and then a belt sander to finish off the curves. There is about 3/16" curve in 7" (or 3/8" curve over the 14" span. I used red oak only because white oak is not readily available, and the red oak will be totally encapsulated in epoxy. The athwartships blocks are glued in place and tomarrow the fore and aft blocks will be tweeked in their thickness and then glued in with epoxy. Then a thin lip will be built on the top with glass and this will give a perfectly level 2" wide flange for the air conditioner to sit on. (8300 BTU AC unit). With the backing blocks (1 x 3") and the flange, there will be no roof deflection of the roof. I will put the photos up, when the project is finished. (The AC unit will not go on top until my son and son in law are here next week to provide the muscle.)

The question comes up, why would I do the repair of the leaking hatch, rather than taking the boat back to the dealer? The boat is kept in back of our house, and it is a 30 mile trip on the water to the nearest ramp which can handle the boat. Then it is a 5 hour drive each way to the dealer. This whole process would have to be repeated to bring the boat back. Plus I have family comming next week, and I didn't want water leaking on the bunk in the mean time. So it is quicker, cheaper and easier for me to do the repair than to send the boat back to the dealer.
 
Hi Bob,
That the roof was cored is interesting. I haven't chopped any holes out of the center/raised portion of the roof on our 24. I did install one of the Nicro solar vents in the slope on the stb side, and there was just fiberglass in this area. I can take one of the interior grab rails loose from the ceiling(raised portion), and check the thickness(coring?) there.
The factory offered to have me take my tank repair to a local dealer if I could find one. I chose to use Wefings because they had recently become a dealer. By the time you completed the patch and fill around the hatch, you could almost have made a one way trip to Wefings :D
Marc needs to open a Wefings West in Destin :D . Losing an hour from the time change hurts the schedule when you pay them a visit. Doesn't take into account the $200.00 for fuel either. Ouch.
Your comments about the glass work, reminded me of our discussion about the hull molds and changes. The new molds are really good judging from the hull on your boat.

Do you have a plan of action for the vent yet?

Gordon
 
Bob, Thanks for the update on the hatch-hole. Yep, I was standing at Wefing's when Marc's crew went to cut the hole on their very 1st CD25, a brand new boat, with no owner yer (other than Wefing's).... there was a lot of pause...looking, rubbing,... looking... measuring AGAIN...more rubbing... and then it happened. Then....more looking...rubbing...looking...but hardly a word being said. WOW... I was nervous and it was not even my boat... It did look cool (no pun intended) once finsihed up...

Interesting on the layers of stuff on your roof. Yep, I spent several hours in a chair on my TC24 roof watching the sun sets...just trolling into them with the Raymarine remote to the auto pilot in hand. What a view from up there...but, that over the slanted windshiled move and back was a bit much. I'd had to put some of those little small folding step brackets on the side of her if I still had her. Great boat.

Yes, I totaly understand about you fixing the hatch. It is great to know that the factory and dealership (which had zero to do with the hatch) is/are willing to take care of it....but....you and others have a point... Time, distance, money...and events put us in the "just simply better to fix it myself" mode. And...it does appear that you get some type of therapy out of screwing around with boats for sure. It is fun...most of the time. Yep, Jeff knows for sure about the quality control and flow of things at the plant. They truly work hard each day for high quality, and individual customer relations too... It has to be a hard balance. And... like everywhere in life.... the biggest room in every business or home....is the room for improvement. Just the facts of life for sure.

Do look forward to your posting of pics.

Byrdman
 
The laminate layup is as good as I have seen (One of my projects is analysis of boat laminates and I cut up 20 hurricane damaged boats, to examine the laminates, and do ultrasonic testing on these samples.) I will also be doing bond testing/ultrasonic testing on the 14 x 14" piece I took out of the roof.
Click to expand...

Bob,
You are a great addition to the C-Brat community! Thank you for sharing your considerable experience and expertise with the rest of us!
Best wishes,
 
Update on the air conditioning hatch project. The 14 x 14" hole was cut with a Rotozip (I had used one years ago on wall board--a bit of a learning curve to make these long straight cuts,) but it is better than a jig saw. From the template, which I transfered to the edge of the 1 x 3, I determined I had to remove about 3/16 on each end of the athwartships 1 x 3 and taper it on up to no removeal in the center. I used a router starting with 3/16 cut on the outer inch, then brought the bit up 1/64 for a couple of passes accross the board, as I moved in toward the center. After about 5 cuts on each side of the two boards, we had a rough outline of the curve. A chizzel cut any wood between the router cuts and then a belt sander smoothed it to a fair curve to match the template. The fore and aft boards also had to be cut down about 3/16 on the outside, a bit less on the inside---I used a power plane for this, and cut on an angle to give the proper profile. This was laid out on the floor to be checked. Then the athwartships curved pieces were covered on the upper side with mish mash (small fibers, with colloidal silica and epoxy). The boards were allowed to set overnight clamped in place on the cabin ceiling and the next AM the fore and aft boards were epoxied in palce. There was enough epoxy "glue" to ooze out on all sides. The fiberglass in the boat for 3" around the cutout on the inside, was ground down to remove the gel coat. After the wooden boards were placed, a two inch flange which will be flat, was build on the top of the cabin. Duct tape defined the edge, 2" wide glass tape was the base--one layer all of the way across, athwartships, and then built layers from 5" to 2" were layered alternate with fore and aft pieces. This rim was faired with high density filler in epoxy. It took about 4 total "final" fairing builds to get this surface absolutely flat and equal fore and aft and athwartships.
I used a "long board"--24" long, with sandpaper glued on one face. This is pulled back and forth to make the surface flat and fair. Finally the deck core, and the oak was encapsulated in epoxy. Instead of gel coat, I elected to smooth the side surface of the top flange with marine tex--and will blend gel coat into its as it goes up the side.. (This will not be seen with the AC or a hatch in place. I have made the lips before, when putting a hatch on a curved deck, but the oak backing blocks really stiffens up the deck and I feel is essential for the airconditioner (94lbs). It was asked exactly what fan I would be using when I was not using an air conditioner: Maxx Air RV Roof fan. This uses a three speed fan, with thermostat if you wish, with exhaust or pull in air on 12 volts. I have used it in hurricane conditions on my RV's--so it will be a good substitute for the Air conditioner in Nothern Climates.

Why do the airconditioner first? We live in N. Florida--and want it comfortable while I do the electronic and other work on the inside.

Photos are being posted currently. If C Dory were to make molds for the lip and the backing blocks, this process could be done in a couple of hours.
I have E mailed to Jeff what I was going to do, and the reasons for the stiffening (so that water doesn't pool under the flange of the AC and get into the boat).
 
We spent the last two days with a new 255 owner whose boat will be delivered in Sept. We found that the house battery is not charged from the battery charger (two 5 amp circuits go only to the engine start batteries). We plan to put in a second battery charger, but the factory design should have at least a three battery charger output.

The cabin door rubs on the frame, and powder coating is already worn off in the stb lower corner.

We have some small hydraulic leak from under the helm pump or out the top of the body of the pump--no fluid there Saturday AM, small amount there after about 5 hours of run time and 50 miles.

We were able to walk the boat sideways, helm hard over, to the way we were wanting to walk, shifting the engines so that one was foreward and the other aft, alternately, walks the boat moderately well--probably better than most twin screw inboards. With the inward rotation of the props, with the engines pointed straight ahead, the port engine walks the stern to stb and stb walks the stern to port (as expected and fairly well).

We were able to control the boat in moderate seas at 10 to 15 mph, where the faster planing speeds, were not tenable (we both became airborn)--even with the bow fully trimmed down and speeding up to over 30 mph. (Seas estimated at 2 to 3 feet, when going directly into the seas.) If we quartered off, the boat became reasonably comfortable, in all points, with excellent control even at 25 mph across or down waves.

We note that backing down moderately hard with 1 to 2 foot chop is safe and no water over the transom. I feel that it would be safe to anchor the boat stern to the chop, if this was necessary because of noise due to water slap under the hull when pointed into the chop in an anchorage. (Caution must always be used when anchoring by the stern).

Hopefully the electronics go on tomarrow.
 
Nice photos and work Bob! Interesting points on work from the factory. Looking good... Great repair photos to go with the words...and nice looking set up for the AC unit. Good Stuff and I can not wait to see this finished up in Oct at the gathering.

Byrdman
 
First let me bring you up to date on the factory/dealer support. We have been in almost constant correspondance. I feel that all problems will be sorted out very fairly. I will not accept money for repairs I have done, but I have been given an option which was appreciated and certainly compensates for my time and effort. If the boat had been near a dealer or the factory, I am sure that the problems would have been fixed in a timely manor by them. One of the issues is that problems don't appear all at once, or at a sea trial. Thus problems are found as you use a boat.

Projects done recently: Put in Navman/Standard Horizon fuel flow meters. I already had a SH, I was going to use in another boat, it is exactly the same as Navman, but slightly different faceplate. I also put in a Blue Seas Digital volt meter. I have a radio shack, 2 pole 6 position switch for measuring the various batteries separately. One pole will provide the meter power, the other pole will have a lead to each of the four batteries/banks. There will be two "off" positions.

The shower was put in on the combings aft on the stb side--It is almost under the railings, the hatch over it hinges aft, and lies flat. Two 2 3/4" holes were drilled and then the raw edges of the balsa cored deck was coated with two coats of epoxy to seal off the balsa core. The deck plate was bedded with 4200. The hoses were connected to the water supply under the sink, for both hot and shower. The transom shower by Scandvik (model #12109) seems to be an excellent fit for the Tom Cat 255. (photos posted).

Now some more play time with my grandchildren and children visiting this week. (Plus a couple of "hunks" to put the RV air conditioning unit on the top of the boat)
 
Just to refresh: The port engine was the one which quit when we did our "sea trial". I had difficulty priming it (the squeeze bulb would not pull a prime, and eventually I did it the old fashion way, by sucking on the fuel line). The engine has continued to run fine, BUT the priming bulb has remained collapsed. I thought it might be the bulb, so I removed it, and replaced it with a new Tempo.
The new bulb does exactly the same, and the Suzuki bulb seems to be normal.

I put in a fuel flow meter, and it is irratic, reads low (by at least half) on the port side (reads fine on the Stb side). The fuel flow bulb was collapsed today 2 hours after we shut the engines down.

I fear that there is some obstruction in the fuel line, and that although the engine pump is coping with it, that this will cause premature failure of the engine pump--plus I need to have the ability to prime the system, and accurately measure fuel flow.

Incidently, the Stb fuel flow guage worked fine (Navman), and we appeared to be getting 2.5 miles a gallon at 25 miles an hour. Even at 40 mph we were getting slightly better than 2 mph. This was with 3/4 fuel tank, and 700 lbs of passangers. I certainly hope these numbers are correct. However I have a quandry--I don't dare fill up the fuel tank, because of the overflow problem with the starboard tank vent. Not being able to fill the tank, I cannot calibrate the guage!

Anyone have any ideas why the primer bulb remains collapsed or where there may be an obstruction? My initial thought is a piece of teflon tape over a inlet to a Racor filter (I have sen this cause these symptoms).

The air conditioner is on top, fits well, no roof defelction. Although the unit is wired, I haven't run the wire to the 110V AC pannel and breaker, so I will post photos after this is done--and when the AC is running.
 
Bob,
Have you tried cracking open the fuel fill when under way, to see if the bulb will open up? It might help to determine if you have a vent obstruction or something in the line.
 
Bob-

This is so simple I shouldn't have to mention it, but can you blow compressed air gently back down the supply line coming from the tank? Joe.
 
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