Target shooting-carrying firearms on the boat

Chris Bulovsky":c8rvhqsx said:
Big Browns are amazing animals. I personally witnessed how a bear can behave after being hit with three rounds from a 375 H&H in the vitals and two rounds from a 45-70. Let me tell you any pistol is a joke. Better than nothing I suppose but don't let it give you false sense of security. 12# or 45-70 with hard cast bullets for coastal browns. Even then they could still be on top of you even if fatally shot. These animals look like super hero's when skinned. They can move so fast and will take direct hits. VERY VERY AMAZING ANIMALS.

Chris
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And this is why I mentioned having to be very good with rifle or shotgun and even better with a pistol with the mention of being able to hit a very fast moving 4" target. Unlike when hunting using the big bores at a distance where the object is to be able to hit most of the time a bears shoulders at a distance to break him down, though not creating immediate death it prevents him from being able to move. We as cruisers without hunting licenses can only kill the bear if our life is really in danger and a Alaska trooper is going to investigate for proof. Therefore the bear is going to be very close and most likely moving fast and the only way for a guaranteed stop in time to prevent injury or death is a brain shot and that's again the reason for one must being able to hit that fast moving 4" target under extreme duress. For most people, rifles, shotguns and especially pistols are nothing more than a security blanket making one not feel totally helpless

About military CS gas and bear spray, I similar to Tom, same CS gas, Army instead of Marines and the song was the Yellow Rose Of Texas. Made the mistake of dropping my helmet instead of holding it between my knees while donning the gas mask. Drill Instructors punishment for those who did was sing songs while in that room Tom described. Unlike the CS gas, bear spray will put a human down very quick at least it did me when I got a shot of it and the young man I saw who tried test spraying it into the wind. No comparison between the two. The bear spray is very strong, burns like hell is described and makes it almost impossible to see and very hard to breath. With a bears more sensitive nose I imagine its very tough on a bear. Thing is a bear when enraged like a mother on protect mode for her cubs is crazed and I don't think in some cases it would even slow her down and that's the reason I personally prefer to have the shotgun along with the spray.

After considerable research this is the pepper spray I chose to buy for Jo-Lee and me. http://www.udap.com/product.htm The (OC) Oleoresin Capsicum-hot red pepper in the spray deteriorates enough in three years to loose its effectiveness so must be purchased again after that time if planning on continuing into bear territory.

Jay
 
Earlier ve tossed out some funnie (to me) stuff, not much of it relevant though. It's interesting how much press this subject gets both here and in lower 48 states.
As most stories, there are elements of truth in most of what ve read here but my conclusion is this. If you are that nervous about this subject, you will not do well no matter what stuff you carry.
Having lived with snakes before, i'll tell you this and most Alaskans agree. We'd much rather have bears than snakes! No one is born comfortable with bears, you have to grow into it. Some get comfortable faster than others, some never get there. Just jump in the barrel and do your time, you might be a natural learner.
For the record, take all this caliber stuff with a grain of salt. The most respected Alaskan guide / author wrote one time about carrying a .357 for backup and his reason was that NO handgun KNOCKS them down. You rely on penetration and being able to hit something in the central nervous system. The .357 does this as well as any BUT it's generally one everyone can shoot well and time is not lost recovering from the harsher recoil of big handguns which cuts your repeat shots and affects your accuracy too.
Any way, getting kinda wordy here, just get out there and figure out who you are, once you fall asleep you forget all about it. When you wake up in one piece your on your way.
Martin
 
Ah! Bear stories. Have a few of my own but won't bore the Brats with retelling them. Read Bill's thread on the nurse who separated from the group, ignoring warnings from the skipper. It is hard to control willful people, who may be personally highly competent but inexperienced in the raw world of wild aniimals. Similar to the old saw about how to get the job without experience and how to get experience without the job.

Getting experience from bears can be a dear experience. I know a few people who bear the scars from encounters with bears. In each case they underestimated the danger from a bear and over estimated their ability to cope witih one.

John
 
When in the Tetons last summer, the discussion of bears and firearms frequently came up. It is now legal to carry a loaded weapon in the National Parks; it is NOT legal to discharge that weapon. :crook Apparently, you are allowed to throw the weapon if attacked by a bear. :wink: When there had been bear sightings on the island where we do meal cruises, the captain crew and chef crew carry bear spray. I had a close encounter of the unpleasant kind with a leaking container of bear spray, and I can tell you that it is extremely unpleasant. One of my first mates got it on his hands. We were told it is much more potent than mace used by law enforcement, and I have no reason to argue that. Just being in the vacinity, it was burning eyes, burning lungs. Nasty.

A guy on one of our cruises told me that he carries a 9mm when he and his wife hike in bear country. I chuckled and said, "That will only make them mad."

His response: "I plan to shoot my wife in the knee and then run like crazy!"

Yes, I laughed. His wife didn't. Looking at her, I think I would prefer to face a bear.

I have a permit to carry. I know it is not reciprocal in many states. I practice, but I have never fired it from the boat. In today's world, each person has to decide what is right regarding carrying a weapon. Odds are pretty good, an intruder isn't going to board your boat hoping to scare you with a horn.
 
One day at anchor in upper BC, we watched two black bear cubs prowl the beach. At first I thought they were large cats or small dogs. That is, until the cubs started flipping rocks the size of microwave ovens with one paw! It is hard to believe the strength of a bear, even a cub, until you see it.

Another bear story. Some guys were out fishing in a 30ft boat when they came upon a black bear swimming across the channel. They had had a few brews and thought it would be fun to circle the swimming bear with the boat. Well, they got too close and the bear grabbed a hold of the swim step and started to board the boat. Fortunately, the operator on the flybridge looked back to see the bear stand up on the swim step and gunned both motors. The bear lost his balance and fell back into the water! And those lucky fools lived to tell the story!
 
Larry, I would love to see the look on the bears face as he fell back in.

I have no good story's of my own except I found myself accidental chased a bear to get a picture , until I realized I'M CHASING A BEAR. no way he could have caught me headed back to the truck.

My brother and sister inlaw were camping in blue lakes in the sierras. Amy hears a bear and tells Pat to get out of bed ( in a tent) and go case it off. pat rolls over and unzips the tent to get out and dam near shoves his own head up the bears a$$. bear was standing right at the tent. pat closed the zipper really quickly and told amy to shut up and go back to sleep. :moon
 
So now that this thread it somewhat hijacked It would be interesting to compare shotgun loads. I like a mix of double OO buck and skull penetrating slugs, all magnum rounds. I figure the first shot is very likely going to come from the hip so my first round is OO; the next 2 are slugs than OO than 2 more slugs. If we ever encounter an angry bear it’s going to be in close quarters. Don’t really worry about black bears; it’s there larger brown haired cousins that worry me. We go to shore every day and often hike 2 to 5 miles in unexplored areas, we take the gun with use maybe 5% of the time.
Noise and lots of it is your best defense against bear encounters, we make lots of it! If you encountered us in the wood you’d think we all had turrets.
 
Jay,

I seem to recall encountering you and the family in the woods and yes we heard you before we saw you.

I always say my last round will be #8's. If I'm down to it, I'm shooting to render the sense of smell, sight, and possibly hearing useless, retreat a few yards, reload, and fire for effect.
 
Jay, I use a 12 gauge Winchester 3" magnum one oz slugs in a stainless Mossburg 500 pump, which leave the barrel at 1760 fps. Use to do the same as you with a mix of buck and slugs. After reading several articles (don't ask me which ones-been to long) about this subject and my own thinking on it, I changed to slugs only. Not enough penetration with buck shot even at very close range. Have read of instances of the 3" Mag shells hanging up in the barrel mostly after the 2nd shot so am considering a change.

Tom, I hope if you ever get down to the #8's the bear is further away then 10 feet because the shot pattern on the #6's I tested wasn't much more then 2" and still wouldn't even pass through thin sheet metal at a angle at that distance. Was on an old water heater and the buck penetrated the sheet metal but glanced off the inner tank lining and the slug blew clean through the whole thing. Pretty much a hillbilly test but convinced me to stick with magnum slugs only. Have had others suggest the blinding thing, but I don't see it working out well in reality.

Jay
 
Tom
The encounter at the mine, a nice hike and no bear sign as I recall. If we see scat the drill is to yell SCAT, keeps us on our toes. That trip probable didn’t justify taking the shotgun, but the guy I had with me other than my son was a Polar bear biologist and was a little jumpy to say the least.

Jay
I figure that first round will at least blind or slow down the bruin so that next shot will count; hopefully I will never have to prove the theory. The Polar bear biologist has to certify each year with the lead balls; his shoulder is black and blue for days. The slugs I shoot are 1 oz hollow point 2 ¾ copper solid sabot slugs, designed to penetrate a bears skull and come out the other end, another theory I hope to never test.

Bottom line is most bear attacks that cause serious injury occur so fast you don’t have enough time to get a round off.
 
Old - joke relating to bears and bear bells (used to make noise for bear avoidance).

How can you tell the difference between scat from a black bear and scat from a grizzly(brown bear)? Black bear scat is composed of moderate size pellets that smell like feces. Grizzly scat smells like pepper spray and contains bear bells. :lol:
 
Time for a Yellowstone grizzly story relaitng to boating. Many years ago I pulled duty as a NPS seasonal ranger at Custer Battlefield. After a number of summers and other times, I learned some things about the NPS culture. Not everything that happens gets reported, and not everything that is reported gets recorded. The story I going to share may be apocryphal. Then again, it may be true. It source was from a Yellowstone NPS ranger.

Relocating troublesome grizzlies in Yellowstone has been going on for decades. Once the biologists learned safe dosages for anesthetizing bears, it was not uncommon for a bear caught in portable traps to get darted, examined, and then taken to various and sundry places and be released. On occasion grizzlies were slung beneath helicopters for transport into remote areas of the park. But there were problems attendant to that. They were called "accidents", CODE for the bear didn't arrive at the destination alive. One unfortuante critter was dropped too far from the ground and killed on impact. Using helicopters is also very expensive.

This story, however, is about a grizzly being transported by a boat across Yellowstone Lake for deposit on the east shore. The decision was made to take a darted grizzly in a small NPS launch for a quick ride across the lake, riding on the covered fore deck. Even a small grizzly weighes more than several men can handle, so I wonder how they did that. But as the story goes, as the boat neared the east shore, the grizzly began to wake up.

Soon it was on its feet, wobbly, and the only thing between the grizzly and several rangers was the windshield. Since our heros didn't want to share the cockpit with their passenger, they took the boat through wild maneuvers, enough so to get the bear to lose balance, fall, and slide of into the water.

The story continues that the bear, even groggy, could swim. I have seen grizzlies swim in Yellowstone Lake, and they indeed swim very well. In any respect the bear made it safely to shore, leaving the rangers with racing hearts and newly discovered convictions that bears and boats don't mix.

Can I vouch for the absolute truth of this tale? No. But then it is a good bear story like all bear stories. If we get to telling buffalo stories (the bison in Yellowstone have caused more injuries than the bears have), then I may be the only C-Brat who ever killed a Yellowstone buffalo legally.

John
 
When we lived in Kodiak and went hunting or playing in the bush, I usually carried either my .416 Rigby or .500 Nitro Express. You'll probably only get one shot anyway, and I subscribe to the "use enough gun" school of thought. Still you have to shoot them enough to be profecient. It takes quite some time to get used to it, but they really are not shoulder breakers like most people think. Proper stock dimensions make all the difference in comfort, as does a good quality pad the the Decelerator or Kick Eez.

Same for handguns...one shot if you're lucky, so I carried a .Freedom Arms 454 Casull with 370gr LBT's when I didn't feel like packing the rifle. Better than nothing.

Either way, being in big bear country certainly makes you more aware of your surroundings. If you are talking and making some noise, you'll probably never even see one anyway.

Rick
 
416rigby":a63enxwb said:
Either way, being in big bear country certainly makes you more aware of your surroundings. If you are talking and making some noise, you'll probably never even see one anyway.
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That is what I am hoping! And from the earlier posts in this thread it sounds like bear encounters of the third boating kind are thankfully few and far between.

That said, I appreciate the link to the bear spray posted earlier.

Warren
 
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