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Sta-Bil ethanol treatment
- Thread starter Chuckpacific
- Start date
Matt Gurnsey
New member
It does on classic cars and cars that don't get used as often. It also destroys small engines like lawn mowers and chain saws and weed eaters.
Cars are using their gas much faster than the average boat, as they are driven every day. Boats can sit for 6 months with fuel in the tank going stae. Plus the automotive fuel system of today is sealed, and not open to the air. Boat tanks are vented and this allows moisture to be drawn in.
The next generation of boat fuel tanks will be sealed like the automotive system, with charcoal cannisters. Coupled with the catalytic converters on inboard engines (and probably future four stroke outboards), the marine engine is becoming more complex.
Portable fuel tanks have undergone a change as well, and fuel hoses have been updated. Remember when a 6 gallon fuel tanks was $30? Try doubling that for generic brands because of the new low permeable and sealed vents. Today's fuel tanks are now pressurized up to 5 PSI when they get war, and the air inside expands. Yamaha fuel hoses are now $100 each because of the low permeable material used to make them.
I fear that prices going up (on boats and accesories), and the high cost of repairs when ethanol damage occurs will drive the average boater out of the industry.
Cars are using their gas much faster than the average boat, as they are driven every day. Boats can sit for 6 months with fuel in the tank going stae. Plus the automotive fuel system of today is sealed, and not open to the air. Boat tanks are vented and this allows moisture to be drawn in.
The next generation of boat fuel tanks will be sealed like the automotive system, with charcoal cannisters. Coupled with the catalytic converters on inboard engines (and probably future four stroke outboards), the marine engine is becoming more complex.
Portable fuel tanks have undergone a change as well, and fuel hoses have been updated. Remember when a 6 gallon fuel tanks was $30? Try doubling that for generic brands because of the new low permeable and sealed vents. Today's fuel tanks are now pressurized up to 5 PSI when they get war, and the air inside expands. Yamaha fuel hoses are now $100 each because of the low permeable material used to make them.
I fear that prices going up (on boats and accesories), and the high cost of repairs when ethanol damage occurs will drive the average boater out of the industry.
Ethanol probably accounts for most of the gasoline purchased and yet users keep on buying it. If it was a problem, I don't think we would see repeat customers.
If it truly causes trouble in the marine industry, then the marine industry will need to adapt.
I've used Ethanol since it was invented and have had absolutely no problems with it in all my marine engines and everything else.
If anyone really feels they have experienced trouble with it then, of course, they should make their own adjustments.
Ethanol seems to be the 'catch all' for blame for many maladies including purchasing bad gas in general.
If it truly causes trouble in the marine industry, then the marine industry will need to adapt.
I've used Ethanol since it was invented and have had absolutely no problems with it in all my marine engines and everything else.
If anyone really feels they have experienced trouble with it then, of course, they should make their own adjustments.
Ethanol seems to be the 'catch all' for blame for many maladies including purchasing bad gas in general.
I use the Blue Stabil, on every fill up with my boat just an ounce per every 10 gallons. I have a six gallon can in my garage for the snow blower, lawn tractor, leaf blower, weed whacker,chain saw, the Mokai,the 2.5 Yamaha dink motor and our two Honda generators.. I add blue stabil to that when it's purchased so any gas including two stroke mix I make using what's in the six gallon can has already been treated. I have had no trouble since using the blue stabil. I have had issues that required me to pull apart carbs and do clean outs etc. This is much easier. I also add Yamaha ring free to the boats fuel on every fill up to avoid any issues with carbon build up. I used the same stuff on Yamaha two strokes. Outside of pulling my tanks just to be sure they were clean after I loaded a fuel filter up once coming across Block Island Sound with some sort of pink slime. I pulled both of my tanks and found a bunch more of the pink slime. Since cleaning them and using the Blue Stabil religiously I have had no issues. I think my issues with my fuel tanks happened before I owned the boat. It was an 08 and I did not purchase it until 09. It's pretty reassuring after the boat sitting for 4months to hit the ignition and get an almost instant start. I have no intention of changing until I see issues with what works for me.
D.D.
D.D.
Tyboo - less than $40 a fish dang I can't even come close to that with Salmon. I did bring home 450lbs of Albacore and only burnt $250 in gas once...
Back to stabilizers
I have always filled my tank at the end of the season then add the red stabil (non ethanol) and the gas is good as new after 6 months.
The new owner of the fuel docks is saying that the existing blend will not need additional stabilizers so I save 20 bucks this year. Been lucky so far and have not had to use any laced fuel in Shearwater yet.
stevej
Back to stabilizers
I have always filled my tank at the end of the season then add the red stabil (non ethanol) and the gas is good as new after 6 months.
The new owner of the fuel docks is saying that the existing blend will not need additional stabilizers so I save 20 bucks this year. Been lucky so far and have not had to use any laced fuel in Shearwater yet.
stevej
With products like Formula X2 the water is emulsified and is still present. At some point it will probably de-emulsify. One of the main products in the MSDS is 2-Butoxyethanol which is a powerful surfactant--and will make the water and ethanol suspended for a time. This is used in a number of solvents and cleaning products--and is fairly in-expensive.
No magic here.
The point is true about "crud" in the fuel tank. I doubt that the Formula X2 alone will prevent that. Theoretically it might make it worse, as "crud" in the tank is loosened up and gets into the fuel lines/injectors....
No magic here.
The point is true about "crud" in the fuel tank. I doubt that the Formula X2 alone will prevent that. Theoretically it might make it worse, as "crud" in the tank is loosened up and gets into the fuel lines/injectors....
Matt Gurnsey
New member
Miafun1":bwx2ecfs said:Ethanol probably accounts for most of the gasoline purchased and yet users keep on buying it. If it was a problem, I don't think we would see repeat customers.
Buyers don't have a choice. Ethanol is present in almost all gasoline now, with the rare exceptions that can be found. When given a choice, buyers will buy non Ethanol.
I'm glad you've had no issues with Ethanol, but it's negative effects on engines and fuel systems is well documented, as well as numerous other reasons that it is a misguided attempt at "energy independence".
This season we had a customer who's 2 stroke Yamaha engine was damaged beyond repair. His argument with his insurance company was that he did nothing wrong, and the damage was a direct result of the Ethanol in the fuel.
We all know how insurance companies will look for any reason to avoid paying a claim- well in this case, the insurance company paid him $7000 because they agreed that he had done nothing wrong in the operation of his engine. Their conclusion was that it was the Ethanol in the fuel that was is available that caused the engine damage.
So if Ethanol is not a problem, how come a complete industry has sprung up to try to find products to deal with the non-problem?
Ethanol is a boondoggle, and it is being forced on the consumer by the government. Given the choice, consumers will pay more for non Ethanol fuel. Even the federal government admits that off road and older engines can't handle E-15, and it is illegal to run it in those engines- as stated by the EPA proposed warning label to be affixed to E-15 pumps.
Actually there have been a number of marine engine/fuel tank issues, and damaged engines/tanks. The car is a bit of a different issue, since most of us burn thru fuel fairly rapidly. My car runs much better on non ethanol fuel. There are several non ethanol pumps in town, but they cost more, and are not convenient.
For the boat it is worth using the non ethanol gas--I can get it on the water at most marinas, or I go take the 5 gallon cans and buy the more expensive non ethanol fuel. In the boat the fuel is far more likely to stay for 6 months unused. There is also more of a chance of condensation in the tank.
Why don't we don something about it?--because it has been mandated, and we have no choice often. We are also like sheep, and follow the instructions we are given. I have friends who will only use the non ethanol fuel, especially in their collector type of cars.
For the boat it is worth using the non ethanol gas--I can get it on the water at most marinas, or I go take the 5 gallon cans and buy the more expensive non ethanol fuel. In the boat the fuel is far more likely to stay for 6 months unused. There is also more of a chance of condensation in the tank.
Why don't we don something about it?--because it has been mandated, and we have no choice often. We are also like sheep, and follow the instructions we are given. I have friends who will only use the non ethanol fuel, especially in their collector type of cars.
Matt isn't alone among outboard mechanics in his alarm over ethanol fuels. During dealer setup of my Tohatsu kicker the technician at Sorensen Marine in Seattle urged me in the strongest terms to be careful with fuel management, and to always use an ethanol-specific treatment if using ethanol fuel. He showed me the carb bowl of another customer's relatively new kicker (5 hours use) that had already needed to be rebuilt due to ethanol related damage. The metal surface was pitted out and he said the entire thing had clogged so badly that it was beyond cleaning. Too, the Honda dealer that sold and rigged my new main motor (Tyler of Boat, Motor, and Trailer in Tacoma) told me that ethanol related repairs had become a large source of repair revenue for his dealership. He did say that the fuel injected motors were less sensitive to these problems than carb motors, but that I should still be careful. My Honda owners manual states that ethanol is not a suitable fuel and that ethanol related damage is not covered under Honda's warranty. I can be pretty thick-headed but I don't think I need an outboard failure to hammer this lesson home to me! I personally have gone to ethanol-free gas for the boat and small power equipment, but will still treat all portable can gas with stabil as a general measure. Mike.
Miafun1":24m1kjsr said:Matt, you are making my point. If it was as bad as some say, wouldn't the repair garages be full of ruined vehicles? I'd have to say that most vehicles are out there on the road running fine and most marine engines are out there being used.
It IS as bad as Matt is saying. Here is the most recent article (used with permission) regarding ethanol from our neighbor, who owns a boat building company and does repair work on all types of boats...
---------------------
COLUMN NAME: “AT THE HELM”
ARTICLE TITLE: Newest Marine Motor Problem…“Ethanol Vapor Lock”
BY: DOC
Over the last couple of years I’ve written several times about all of the really nasty problems associated with E-10 (ethanol gasoline) in our marine motors and fuel systems. I seriously thought that I had covered every symptom, every cause and effect, and what could be done about them so that boaters could prevent fuel system problems and motor failures. Then, in the past few months, yet another completely new ethanol related disease is spreading, and it’s proving to be pretty expensive to cure once your boat’s motor contracts this disease, known as “Ethanol Vapor Lock”.
Before ethanol vapor lock raised its ugly head, there were several other problems that boaters had to deal with because of ethanol in our fuels, and those problems continue to exist today and will not likely go away anytime soon. These problems included the fact that ethanol absorbs moisture/water vapors right out of the air very quickly. Obviously, water in your fuel is a very bad thing and your motor doesn’t run very well on water. Thus, the need for a 10 micron fuel/water separator filter being installed in-line was no longer an option, but a necessity, and the filter should be changed at least every 90 days if not more often.
That same combination of ethanol (a type of alcohol) and water are also highly corrosive, and can and will damage metal parts in your boat’s fuel system and motor, making that fuel/water separator filter just that much more important. Even worse, is that same corrosive mixture of ethanol and water literally eats holes through all types of metal fuel tanks, with a potentially explosive result. Because of this, many boaters have changed their fuel tanks to the new double wall plastic tanks or metal tanks with bladders in them.
Then, right from the start of ethanol being introduced into our fuels, marine motors began experiencing two other problems that were more of a nuisance than a safety issue. The first was that fuels containing ethanol didn’t last, broke down and became bad fuel in less than a month. The symptoms of bad gas were varnished, clogged and dirty carburetors and sometimes even fuel injectors, whereby the motor might idle just fine, but would fall on its face at mid-throttle. I venture to say that marine motor mechanics have cleaned more carburetors and fuel systems in the last 2 years than they had in the past 2 decades combined. The only cure for this is to use or pump out all of the unused fuel every 3 to 4 weeks. Oh, and there is no additive that will counteract this, so save your money.
The second nuisance is that ethanol eats the lining out of regular marine grade fuel lines and hoses, which again, clogs up carburetors, fuel injectors and fuel systems. Additionally, as the ethanol eats away at the fuel line the heat caused by sunlight causes the fuel line to crack open, which could become a safety issue. Fortunately, the cure or preventative measure for this is relatively inexpensive. It simply requires changing fuel lines and hoses over to alcohol rated hose, type A1. The cost per foot of A1 fuel line averages about $2.29 a foot, and it’s an easy do-it-yourself project.
In order to better understand how this relatively new ethanol related disease, ethanol vapor lock, works, you’ll need a little basic information. First of all, ethanol molecules are extremely small; basically microscopic verses good ol’ gasoline molecules. It’s like comparing a mouse to an elephant. Being that tiny, ethanol molecules can easily escape, evaporate or leak through (permeate) almost any thing, where gas molecules can’t, and when those molecules escape or whatever, they leave behind air voids and pockets in fuel lines and pumps, also called being “air bound”. Common symptoms are difficulty in starting, poor performance and motors that just quit running for no apparent reason.
Secondly, most all of the newer, fuel efficient 2-stroke and 4-stroke motors today are electronic fuel injected, have computers to regulate everything, and use an electronic/electrical high pressure fuel feed pump along with a device called a vapor separator. Without getting too technical, just imagine that you’re running along at full throttle and your motor’s fuel system is fully pressurized, and you suddenly slow down or stop, maybe to fish. At that point, the system becomes over-pressurized with too much fuel and the excess fuel is dumped back into the fuel feed pump and then it’s pumped into the vapor separator to de-pressurize, leaving the fuel feed pump partially full, if not completely empty, dry.
So, the next time you start your motor, there’s a chance that the fuel pump could burn up because it has lost prime, become air bound, pumping air and not fuel. It’s similar to a heart attack in a human when a single air bubble gets in the blood stream. When that air bubble enters the heart, it’s all over!
While this type of fuel pump failure will not happen every time, it does happen, because whether it’s air in the fuel lines or in the pump itself, it’s that air that causes the problem. While the cost of these pumps range from around $600 to over $1200, there is a free, no charge remedy, or at least a precaution boaters can take.
Again, the primary (pardon the pun) problem is air in the fuel system. Regardless of whether it’s a cold or hot start, priming the fuel system is more important now than ever before, and most especially on warm and hot days. Pumping the fuel primer bulb once until it gets hard, may work, but waiting 30 to 60 seconds and doing it again is highly recommended. For that matter, after turning on the ignition switch to the first position (not starting the motor) turns on the fuel pump and supposedly pressurizes the system, but if you prime it again, you’re pretty much guaranteed the system is full of fuel and that you’ve purged any air in it.
In rare cases, booster fuel pumps have been added at the fuel tank and computers have been flashed to add additional fuel during startup. These are chronic cases and not recommended by most motor manufacturers except as a last resort. The simplest cure is simply priming your motor several times before starting it, then…GO FISH!
AS ALWAYS, STAY SAFE & HAPPY BOATING!!!
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I have already scheduled a time to get Wild Blue into their shop when we get home, to have the fuel lines replaced. Not a scare tactic, the lines were already showing signs of UV wear when we put her away this last time. I have seen the boats in their shop due to ethanol related problems every time I've been there in the last couple years... it ain't pretty. You can see the stratified fuel/water when they pump out a tank... and the ugly damn goo.
Current cars aren't having an issue because the manufacturers made the move to lines, seals, etc that are made for dealing with ethanol. Well, not an issue IF you don't take into account that you are getting fewer miles per gallon on that fuel compared to "undiluted" gasoline. It takes a gallon of gasoline in the process to produce a gallon of ethanol... how does this make sense, other than the subsidies some folks are getting to produce this stuff?
We used to be able to buy non-ethanol fuel at our nearby fuel dock... no longer. If you have an older car or an outboard more than a couple years old, this IS an issue.
Jim B.
Why don't we don't something about it?--because it has been mandated, and we have no choice...
Exactly. I prefer the term "shoved down our throats" but "mandated" will work.
In fact, I've read that the energy derived from ethanol is less than it costs to produce. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
I simply googled "ethanol prblems" and was directed to:
"ethanol problems" "ethanol problems in small engines" "ethanol problems in marine engines"...
Salmon Fisher
Member
Just at West Marine tonight, Marine Sta Bil still $19.99 for 32 oz. I treat at 1 oz per 10 gal since getting boat 2 yrs ago. Fires right up everytime, runs way better than when purchased.
Stock up now!
Stock up now!
I might have mentioned this once before but OSU did a study on the cost of producing ethanol for automobile use. Something like $14/gallon. For the life of me I don't understand why the government wants to go this direction, or some of the other technologies when clean diesel technology is out there with proven fantastic performance.
Fuel Additives
Many fuel additives are advertised to improve fuel economy, reduce exhaust emissions, or both. Some advertisements claim these products have been endorsed or approved by EPA. However, EPA does not endorse, approve, or certify fuel additives.
EPA does require fuel additives to be ‘registered’ but EPA does not test candidate products for engine efficiency, emissions benefits, or safety as part of the registration process. To register an additive, manufacturers must report the chemical composition along with certain technical, marketing, and health effects information. In some cases the manufacturer may be required to conduct testing or literature research to assess potential emissions health effects. The EPA registration process does not include a check of manufacturer product efficacy claims. In other words, EPA does not determine whether or not the fuel additive works as advertised. Registration does not represent EPA endorsement of the product.
The following are links to all registered fuel additives for:
Gasoline: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/web-gas.htm
Diesel: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/web-dies.htm
Detergents: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/de ... b-dtrg.htm
Do NOT assume that because a fuel additive has been registered with EPA that this implies anything about the safety, benefits, or claims made by the manufacturer.
Many fuel additives are advertised to improve fuel economy, reduce exhaust emissions, or both. Some advertisements claim these products have been endorsed or approved by EPA. However, EPA does not endorse, approve, or certify fuel additives.
EPA does require fuel additives to be ‘registered’ but EPA does not test candidate products for engine efficiency, emissions benefits, or safety as part of the registration process. To register an additive, manufacturers must report the chemical composition along with certain technical, marketing, and health effects information. In some cases the manufacturer may be required to conduct testing or literature research to assess potential emissions health effects. The EPA registration process does not include a check of manufacturer product efficacy claims. In other words, EPA does not determine whether or not the fuel additive works as advertised. Registration does not represent EPA endorsement of the product.
The following are links to all registered fuel additives for:
Gasoline: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/web-gas.htm
Diesel: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/web-dies.htm
Detergents: www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/de ... b-dtrg.htm
Do NOT assume that because a fuel additive has been registered with EPA that this implies anything about the safety, benefits, or claims made by the manufacturer.
lloyds":3l4t4ma9 said:<stuff clipped> For the life of me I don't understand why the government wants to go this direction, or some of the other technologies when clean diesel technology is out there with proven fantastic performance.
Simple answer - powerful lobbying from farmers and agribusiness. It doesn't have to make sense when lobbyists own enough of both sides of the aisle.
Yamaha recommends their products and has some pictures of rust causing by other additives
see
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/Et ... _Flyer.pdf
see
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/Et ... _Flyer.pdf
Last night I was reading the editorial article in the "Boating" magazine that I just received that takes the place of the "Trailer Boating" magaine that I used to receive. The editorial discusses the numerous problems and results of using fuel containing ethanol. (All of which has been mentioned by others in this thread). One additional revelation that was mentioned by the editor was "the 45 cents per gallon tax credit that refiners get for blending ethanol with gasoline, a $5 billion annual subsidy".