Some advice still needed

You should look at the numbers, 3 or 4 people a year are killed by bears in North America, and about 9000 people die a year from guns, well are murdered..... there are a whole pile of other figures.....accidents etc.......... so if I was you, stay away from guns............and stay farther away from people with guns... the bears are relatively safe if you use some common sense and keep your distance
 
An interesting tid bit on Arachnoid.com per Paul Lutus who travels to Alaska yearly is his threat list form least dangerous to most dangerous......Bear, Moose, Dog, Human. You can read his yearly synopsis at http://arachnoid.com/alaska2014/index.html. They go back to 2002. He has some insight on bear behavior based on his experiences. One is that you are less likely to have bear trouble in areas where they are still hunted. Supposedly your more likely to die from a moose than a bear. I have no idea about that and leave it to the folks who live up that way or some enterprising C-Brat to dig out the stats.

Really looking forward to reading about your trip,
James
 
I certainly would not rely on a flare gun to stop either a bear or a human-agree with the issues ref fire. A flare gun is only a fair distress signal, and a very poor weapon. If you are not skilled and very proficient with a gun, or any weapon, don't use it or even carry it.

You are far more likely to have a water pump problem of some sort (either water system, or engine, than any of the other issues that have been discussed here.

Spend your time doing "homework". When I am exploring, cruising etc. I spent several hours each night reading about what I will encounter the next day. Charts, anchorages, interesting history of the area, natural features, hikes, hazards etc. This is what will make the cruise to AK most memorable. There are a number of good guides, books on the history, exploration including John Muir and Captain Cook, native people, Legends of the Native people, history of exploration, mining, fishing forestry/logging, and ecology. Go to Amazon and google books on Alaska--I believe that there are over 300. (For example each year on Lake Powell, I make a point to read several new books on the area--same for the trips we took to Alaska, etc.)
 
Just a thought. We've been up in Alaska, actually Juneau, via the Inside Passage. We had a great time and never grounded, always talked to the bears when we were in bear country. Never felt threatened by the country, animals or even humans. Froze our ass off in summer, but then we're from SoCal. There are marinas everywhere and we picked secure anchorages. We were never "alone," there are boats everywhere, within hailing distance. So lets stay with common sense.

EPIRB, PLB(s), ditch bag and personal bags are what we used crossing the Pacific, not in the channels making up the Inland Passage. We all can throw in some personal safety gear but then it'll overwhelm a C-Dory, especially a 22. Our worries were navigation, anchoring and currents through channels since Alaska does have some big tydes. And commercial fishermen, staying out of their way and not hitting their nets. That's tough on a 6 knt boat.

So my message is, use common sense. It's worked for you in the lower 48, it'll work for you in Alaska. What one uses cruising in the Pacific Northwest works in the Inside Passage. And people up there are friendly and will gladly help.

I love the thought of guns. Especially if you want to escalate any problem you already have.

Boris
 
Like Bob, I'm not in favor of firearms for protection from bears or most anything else by those unfamiliar or unskilled in their use & even if they are skilled, some folk would be better off without them & most of these would be the same type that should try very hard to stay away from any threatening situation where their nervous systems & control are not going to hold up under such stress. I'm just glad the choice is still mine on decision to go armed or not. I believe Boris is correct for the most part on his assessment of risk if staying on the main Inland Passage routes to Juneau or Sitka, such as Larry's plans seem to indicate, but there are some places in the ABC Islands pretty remote where other boats are scarce & bear population extremely high. In these areas people still get by with some wandering about shore & further inland, but the locals sure advise against it & especially not without firearms & or other protection.

I've spent considerable time in grizzly bear country without any protection, but sure feel more relaxed with my bear spray along in areas where the wind is light & can see about easily. If not then I prefer my 12 ga shotgun with 3" magnum slugs readily available.

Among the many books I've read about bears & traveling in their habitat, one especially sang the praises of flare guns as a bear deterrent. With most of Southeast Alaska a rain forest & fire a very low possibility of its use there, I have carried a flare gun along with bear spray & a shot gun when in the back country for bear deterrent. Perhaps up very close it might work & on a windy day better than bear spray, but in the two different times I used it & one of those at only about 25 years it was ignored by the bears.

I agree that like in Yellowstone Park, the Bears around the bear tourist attraction places in Southeast Alaska like Anan & Pack creek are very people aware & pose a much less threat than in some of the more isolated areas & even there even the more aggressive bears I've always been able to back down by just being more aggressive than them without the use of any deterrent, except in two instances. Most all bad bear encounters come from surprising a bear with it having to make a split second decision to fight or flight & not wanting to turn its back on something very close it perceives as dangerous or getting to near a cub or between it & the mom & thus with my penchant for walkabouts where their is always that possibility, why I choose to carry the shotgun.

For most a firearm of any kind is best left at home, but like I mentioned before in a post earlier in this thread, most safety items especially those for abandoning ship are more for peace of mind with very long odds on actually being used, but the idea of the boat sinking or drifting & being carried by waves onto a rocky shore or a bear chewing or clawing the life out of you, such a horrendous way to go that perhaps they deserve the devices that provide peace of mind to many. It's seems for many even with the availability of all these devices for added security they still can only talk about going that far north so bravo to all no matter what they bring along who actually cast off & head north to see the beauty & wildlife waiting for them in the Southeast Alaska waters.

Jay
 
Over the years I have been on a few extreme wilderness backpacking trips in Alaska and the Yukon (flown in by seaplane to a lake, hike 60 to 80 miles, then flown out from another lake). Grizzlies have always been around. We never had trouble; however, we wanted to be prepared. We did extensive homework, and the research seems to show that pepper spray is more effective than guns (mostly due to the wide dispersal of spray vs a bullet). We always took spray, and I never went to do my business with a shovel and toilet paper without a can at hand :lol:.

BTW, pepper spray cans can be mounted in a "holster" on one's belt.....rummaging around in a pack for the spray can doesn't cut it.
 
My better half had a close encounter with a bear as she was getting out of her car to go fly fishing, her being a excellent shot managed to dispatch the bear with a very hard throw of her car keys. My close encounter, I was sitting on a log in the middle of a trail resting when I seen a black bear heading my way, it didn't really notice me till I stood up, made myself look as big as possible and yelled like hell, yelling like hell was easy, cause I knew running like hell wasn't going to work. It was the first time I seen bear poop in the woods. Bears don't poop in the forest, they poop anywhere but the forest, on the trails, on the roads, on your lawn on, your picnic table, but not in the woods, they live there and don't want to step on it. I lost two apple trees to bears, they broke them off a ground level while eating the gala apples on the tree, the part that pissed me off was, I had 20 or so of my neighbours bees hives to attract them less then a 100ft away, and then it would have been his problem. Bears aren't stupid.
Anyway, your in for a very pretty drive, from Smithers BC to Prince Rupert, I am a little biased, having grown up here, but, have been to close to 30 different countries, and made it 3/4 the way around north America on my murdercycle before it tried to kill me for the second time..........enjoy the exciting experience
 
in the last few years I have become a much stronger advocate of the PLB, hand held radio, and small survival gear pouch after reading about many preventable deaths in small boats--even the size of a dinghy or 13 foot whaler. The cost of a PLB is a couple hundred dollars, the VHF about $100. The small survival gear, good drink at dinner. All of these will fit in a number of life vests which have pockets. These do save lives, and take up very little room--something which we both carry with us aboard, or in the dinghy. Sure the chance of having to use it--is very small. But every year I read of over a dozen instances where lives would have been saved with these few items costing less than $400.

In any case, enjoy one of the best experiences you will every have!
 
thataway":ppl79y1f said:
in the last few years I have become a much stronger advocate of the PLB, hand held radio, and small survival gear pouch after reading about many preventable deaths in small boats--even the size of a dinghy or 13 foot whaler. The cost of a PLB is a couple hundred dollars, the VHF about $100. The small survival gear, good drink at dinner. All of these will fit in a number of life vests which have pockets. These do save lives, and take up very little room--something which we both carry with us aboard, or in the dinghy. Sure the chance of having to use it--is very small. But every year I read of over a dozen instances where lives would have been saved with these few items costing less than $400.

In any case, enjoy one of the best experiences you will every have!
Click to expand...

This^^^^

Also this:

Be wary of where you get bear advice, and be especially wary of people telling you how often they ventured into bear country without adequate protection and were just fine. I can introduce you to a couple people who did that successfully for many years until the one day they didn't. I also have a good friend (and one of my field crew leaders with lots of experience) who got mauled with a 12 gauge shotgun on his shoulder. He just got blindsided with no warning and is lucky to be alive today because he handled the mauling as he was trained to.

You could also blindfold yourself and run across a busy 6 lane highway, and make it. It doesn't mean that this is a safe thing to do, or a good habit to have.

There is a lot of advice available on the internet that was submitted by people who have read about bears on the internet, and this pile of bad advice just circulates and feeds itself without being guided by any relevant experience. It is extremely difficult for the novice to discern fact from fabrication, so I would urge you, with all seriousness to purchase and watch (a few times) the video "Staying Safe in Bear Country." It is full of good information, vetted and compiled by professionals, and is useful for anyone from the Freshman to the professional.

I have worked around bears for the last 18 years, the last ten of which I have been in charge of my projects and crews. I have gone to incredible lengths to discourage bad encounters between bears and my crews (and me!). I have used active bear dens (day beds) as toilets to encourage bears to move along. I have rescued hanging caribou meat (and our only food) from a polar bear who had already had a few bites, and moved him along down the coast with nothing more than a chainsaw in my hand (though a big gun was over my shoulder).

I have also put bears down. Only twice, but in those cases there was absolutely nothing to do but end the ordeal. These bears were not right, hungry, probably starving, and willing to take risks healthy, well fed bears wouldn't.

You do not need a gun to get out of a bad bear encounter alive, and you are absolutely right to forego a firearm if it does not provide you with a greater sense of safety. In an untrained hand, a firearm is more likely to escalate a situation that seems scary but poses no real threat (i.e. a bluffing bear, what you experience 99.99999% of the time there is a tense encounter) by causing you to fire when you shouldn't, and injure (thereby enraging) the bear, causing it to eliminate you as a threat.

If you get some training, and some experience, and you are going to have a lot of bear encounters (i.e. you go to work with them every day), a firearm is very much worth considering. BUT. GOOD INFORMATION IS ESSENTIAL, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU CHOSE A LETHAL OR NON-LETHAL DETERRENT (don't choose no deterrent).

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM0OghpVaFY

Buy this video and watch a few times:
http://www.bearbiology.com/iba/safety-i ... untry.html

A bear encounter should be a good experience for everyone involved. It should be something that you enjoy, and remember fondly. The vast majority of encounters are exactly this, and so to conclude, I would discourage bearanoia, and not be so overly concerned about bears that it diminishes the fun on your trip. Getting the right info into your head to stay is the absolute best thing you can do. After all of this time, and the many many tense experiences I've had over the years, I still go out HOPING to see a bear.

Moose are statistically a bit more dangerous, but far more predictable. You will have moose trouble with cows during the calving season (May) that will diminish as time goes on, although cow moose can get feisty with a yearling with her. Bull moose get irritable during the rut (sept-dec) especially when they are holding a harem.

For moose, the instructions are simple, and very different. RUN AWAY!!! Do not ever stand up to a moose. You will lose. Moose have a hard time maintaining speed while changing direction, but they are very fast in a straight line. Run in zig-zags, use trees and other objects for cover, and try to get under something big, into a hard structure, or up a tree if you can climb quickly enough, though you better get 15' up before the moose is on you or you are coming down the hard way. A moose attack is rare, but moose do not bluff. If they are coming, they are usually coming for real. It's a much more predictable, but statistically much more serious threat.

For what it's worth, and in my opinion, I think a bear that has already decided to eat you is a much bigger threat than a charging moose, but the average bear is less dangerous than the average moose.
 
thataway":2v7ch9qj said:
in the last few years I have become a much stronger advocate of the PLB, hand held radio, and small survival gear pouch after reading about many preventable deaths in small boats--even the size of a dinghy or 13 foot whaler. The cost of a PLB is a couple hundred dollars, the VHF about $100. The small survival gear, good drink at dinner. All of these will fit in a number of life vests which have pockets. These do save lives, and take up very little room--something which we both carry with us aboard, or in the dinghy. Sure the chance of having to use it--is very small. But every year I read of over a dozen instances where lives would have been saved with these few items costing less than $400.

In any case, enjoy one of the best experiences you will every have!
Click to expand...

This^^^^

Also this:

Be wary of where you get bear advice, and be especially wary of people telling you how often they ventured into bear country without adequate protection and were just fine. I can introduce you to a couple people who did that successfully for many years until the one day they didn't. I also have a good friend (and one of my field crew leaders with lots of experience) who got mauled with a 12 gauge shotgun on his shoulder. He just got blindsided with no warning and is lucky to be alive today because he handled the mauling as he was trained to.

You could also blindfold yourself and run across a busy 6 lane highway, and make it. It doesn't mean that this is a safe thing to do, or a good habit to have.

There is a lot of advice available on the internet that was submitted by people who have read about bears on the internet, and this pile of bad advice just circulates and feeds itself without being guided by any relevant experience. It is extremely difficult for the novice to discern fact from fabrication, so I would urge you, with all seriousness to purchase and watch (a few times) the video "Staying Safe in Bear Country." It is full of good information, vetted and compiled by professionals, and is useful for anyone from the Freshman to the professional.

I have worked around bears for the last 18 years, the last ten of which I have been in charge of my projects and crews. I have gone to incredible lengths to discourage bad encounters between bears and my crews (and me!). I have used active bear dens (day beds) as toilets to encourage bears to move along. I have rescued hanging caribou meat (and our only food) from a polar bear who had already had a few bites, and moved him along down the coast with nothing more than a chainsaw in my hand (though a big gun was over my shoulder).

I have also put bears down. Only twice, but in those cases there was absolutely nothing to do but end the ordeal. These bears were not right, hungry, probably starving, and willing to take risks healthy, well fed bears wouldn't.

You do not need a gun to get out of a bad bear encounter alive, and you are absolutely right to forego a firearm if it does not provide you with a greater sense of safety. In an untrained hand, a firearm is more likely to escalate a situation that seems scary but poses no real threat (i.e. a bluffing bear, what you experience 99.99999% of the time there is a tense encounter) by causing you to fire when you shouldn't, and injure (thereby enraging) the bear, causing it to eliminate you as a threat.

If you get some training, and some experience, and you are going to have a lot of bear encounters (i.e. you go to work with them every day), a firearm is very much worth considering. BUT. GOOD INFORMATION IS ESSENTIAL, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU CHOSE A LETHAL OR NON-LETHAL DETERRENT (don't choose no deterrent).

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM0OghpVaFY

Buy this video and watch a few times:
http://www.bearbiology.com/iba/safety-i ... untry.html

A bear encounter should be a good experience for everyone involved. It should be something that you enjoy, and remember fondly. The vast majority of encounters are exactly this, and so to conclude, I would discourage bearanoia, and not be so overly concerned about bears that it diminishes the fun on your trip. Getting the right info into your head to stay is the absolute best thing you can do. After all of this time, and the many many tense experiences I've had over the years, I still go out HOPING to see a bear.

Moose are statistically a bit more dangerous, but far more predictable. You will have moose trouble with cows during the calving season (May) that will diminish as time goes on, although cow moose can get feisty with a yearling with her. Bull moose get irritable during the rut (sept-dec) especially when they are holding a harem.

For moose, the instructions are simple, and very different. RUN AWAY!!! Do not ever stand up to a moose. You will lose. Moose have a hard time maintaining speed while changing direction, but they are very fast in a straight line. Run in zig-zags, use trees and other objects for cover, and try to get under something big, into a hard structure, or up a tree if you can climb quickly enough, though you better get 15' up before the moose is on you or you are coming down the hard way. A moose attack is rare, but moose do not bluff. If they are coming, they are usually coming for real. It's a much more predictable, but statistically much more serious threat.

For what it's worth, and in my opinion, I think a bear that has already decided to eat you is a much bigger threat than a charging moose, but the average bear is less dangerous than the average moose.
 
In my experience and research, there is a BIG difference in appropriate "bear advise" depending on these 2 factors:

1. Grizzly bear encounters vs encounters with other species of bear

2. Chance encounters in the wilderness vs encounters near man-made permanent or semi-permanent environments (even primitive ones) where the bear knows where to go and in particular if the bear knows food is kept there.
 
I am continuing this thread because I did a copy and paste on the survival advice from the posts that printed out as 4 pages. I forwarded these posts to potential guests. I just finished reading Beating the Odds on Northern Waters and found that most of those 200+ pages in that book are boiled down in this blog thread pages in those 4 pages. So this conversation has been extremely valuable as it focuses the relevant information about survival. But the book seems to emphasize immersion suits. Are these necessary given the limited space on a c-dory?
 
Larry, my opinion on the necessity of immersion suits on a C-Dory is NO-due to just not enough room. I do have both the coast guard immersion suits & Mustang bibs & jacket survival suits. We do carry the survival suits with us but don't think they are a necessity for what you are planning. If you read my write ups on our past cruises you will see why we do have them aboard. The jacket part of the survival suit is very handy & comfortable, so I wear it often as a life jacket especially when in the Mokai. It perhaps would be worth your consideration.

Jay
 
The book is available on the internet for those who don't want to buy it:

http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/aku/akuh02001.pdf

Larry, you are doing the inland passage, where you will be in mostly protected waters, (although there are some risks), and will not be north of about 59 degrees N.) The book is more toward survival of offshore fishing vessels in the Bering Sea on up. In the C Dory you and these waters you are far safer than an offshore fishing boat (many of which are of questionable maintenance) in the Bering sea. No justification for immersion suits.

I was wondering about "potential Guests". We had a 62 foot boat with 3 formal staterooms, and which would sleep as many as 12, and on occasion had more than that aboard.. when cruising Europe, and the Caribbean. We cruised AK with a Cal 46, which could formally sleep 8, but rarely had more than 4 aboard. Having more than 2 to 3 on a C Dory 25, seems like a disaster in the making…. It is great to share adventures with friends, but the C Dory 25 is still basically a 2 person boat, unless it is very close family.

Have a great cruise!
 
smckean (Tosca)":31py9sc0 said:
In my experience and research, there is a BIG difference in appropriate "bear advise" depending on these 2 factors:

1. Grizzly bear encounters vs encounters with other species of bear

2. Chance encounters in the wilderness vs encounters near man-made permanent or semi-permanent environments (even primitive ones) where the bear knows where to go and in particular if the bear knows food is kept there.
Click to expand...

I disagree with point #1. There is a popular misconception that brown/griz are more aggressive than black bears. They are not. There is bad advice out there that you play dead with a griz and fight back against a black. No.

Point #2 is fair enough. There is a difference in behavior between bush bears and town bears or campsite Bears. There's a difference between national park bears and the others. But really, you react to both species the same, depending on the Bear's motivation and perception of you. If you keep a clean camp and make lots of noise, your most likely to have problems with a bear that you have startled, is defensive, or is Predatory, in that order of frequency. Defensive bears are rarely a real threat unless you have unfortunate sow/cub/you placement. Startled bears are a wild card, but unless you are close, you are probably ok. Predatory bears are not very scary compared to the others. They are quiet and persistent. They seem like they want something, and the biggest problem of recognition is the assumption they are after food/garbage. A bear protecting its food (ie your garbage) will be blustery and bluff. A bear looking for garbage or camp scraps in the bush is not going to be super bold around you (town/national park bears are different). They are generally risk-averse. But because predatory bears don't always come right at you (they might linger around for awhile) and quiet and calm people sometimes perceive them as friendly. Predatory bears need to be stood up to.

Polar bears want to eat you. You treat them as predatory every time. They are really the only species that you pull out a different rule book for.
 
As for survival suits, we carry two under the rear bench seat. If I had to bail that would go with me, even if I couldn't get it on first. I'm trying to get one made for my little baby too. People survive for days in survival suits and maybe hours without one but it all depends. I think if I were long range cruising I got want that space for something else.

Our insurance company wrote into our policy basically what is required of a commercial boat: survival suits, throw ring with line, etc. I don't know why, but they did. I took it as sound advice.
 
There are occasional reports of black bears perceiving humans as prey. The most noted one was breaking into, attacking and eating a woman in a cabin somewhere in western Canada.
 
Kushtaka":2ok4uv8i said:
I disagree with point #1. There is a popular misconception that brown/griz are more aggressive than black bears. They are not. There is bad advice out there that you play dead with a griz and fight back against a black. No.
Click to expand...
And I disagree with your disagreement :wink:.

As to fight vs play dead.....I never took a position on that. Beyond that, which survival strategy to use depends mostly on the situation not on the species of bear.

As to black vs grizzlies (BTW, both can be brown, black, and many other colors), I don't worry about black (the species) bears at all. Grizzlies are another matter.
 
I must say, that I treat all bears with respect. I have had close encounters with both black and brown. I understand the different behaviors and am NOT an expert, but there always can be extenuating circumstances of behavior. But I am going to have my bear spray on the ready. (and my "back up".)….

The chance of a "bear problem" when on a C Dory Cruise is minimal….!
 
Back
Top