Some advice still needed

L

larhayden

New member
We are towing a used CD25 (2007) from South Carolina to Prince Rupert this summer (2015) then doing the inside passage of Alaska. Have been upgrading the boat based on blogs from this site. Have made many upgrades, but am running out of time for research, so need to ask advice about the following:

1) Have a 150 suzuk engine; max throttle is 4K rpm with a 22 degree pitch prop. Locals here say that I need a 17 degree pitch prop. Does that pitch sound right to you? Are there sites to buy used props?

2) Permatrim. Who is the C-dory person that can sell me a permatrim hydrofoil? For 150 Suzuk engine?

3) Paper charts. Most cost effective (and compact) source of paper charts from Prince Rupert to Juneau to Sitka and back to Prince Rupert?

4) Who to contact for that inevitable breakdown? Here in the east, we use Boat US. How about the inland passage in Alaska?

Apologize in advance for having to ask these questions. Just need help to meet our timeframe-- Our first adventure in the West -- and the first on a C-dory. /larry hayden/
 
Great trip!!
A) you'll want to go a lower pitch for sure. Is that 4k lightly loaded or cruise ready? You may need to experiment. Figure on 200 rpm per inch of reduction There are other 25 owners who'll chime in I'm sure. Quite often diameter and pitch are reduced to achieve your wide open throttle settings per your manual. Usually 5500-6000.
B) Les at EQ Marine in Whidby Isl Wa is a Permatrim guy. You may have someone local. Check. Permatrim dealers online
C). Alaska cruisers may need to chime in here. You'll be off the Canadian charts instantly quick anyway. NOAA has printable formats.
D). You are prepared with spare prop, tools to change it, pumps checked etc motor checked etc what can go wrong??
Alaska is big be self sufficient and prepped. Local boaters can help but Boat US may be sparse. Not sure check with them.
If you have a wallas stove, spares needed. For combustion areas.
Get a hold of Scan marine for spares suggested.
George
 
With the Suzuki you should be hitting 6,000 RPM--that boat is severely overptiched. It is inches not degrees in which prop pitch is measured. We were running 22's in the Tom Cat, but with two 150's…
The Suzuki will run a higher pitch than the Hondas, because of lower unit gearing. The 150's can swing the 200 hp size lower unit props, so they can also be slightly larger diameter than most of the other outboards.

As George, points out, your boat will be heavily loaded for that length of cruise. I would guess that 17" would be close. But heavy loads, might go to 15". Generally each one inch of pitch reduction gives 200 more RPM. By that formula, If you need to pickup 2000 RPM, then you would drop by 10". In your case, I don't believe that will be proper.

What speed are you getting at 4000 RPM?

Andy at SIM (Shipyard Island Marina), at 800-213-3323, is the US dealer for Permitrims. You need to order now, since they are made in New Zealand--and occasionally can be out of stock. I would recommend the Permatrim.

I have never seen any commercial towing service in SE AK. There may be some now.. Generally fishermen or other boaters are the source of help. I agree with the self sufficient part. We have done the inland passage 5x, and never had a serious issue we could not fix. With a single engine boat, so "Kicker" becomes essential. Be self sufficient.

We had paper charts aboard our Cal 46, and there were well over 100. This is not practical for the C Dory. I would get The Donald Douglas Guide to SE AK. We also had the Evergreen Pacific Charts atlas of AK (Exploring Alaska and BC, Skagway to Barkley Sound.) This is sufficient along with a good chart plotter--I would have two for redundancy. I would also have a good sounder, a radar, and good anchoring gear--most of the time you will be in less than 50 feet, but I have anchored in over 100 feet. (Easier on a larger boat)

Tide and current tables are essential--and plan you cruising by that. Your time is not running out--you need to be doing "Homework" every night, if you are going to get the most of this wonderful cruise.

If no one else hops in and does not give you an itiniary, I will post one, which I believe would be the "must sees". You are already too late for a Pack Creek early pass--you may get on at lottery at FS headquarters Juineau 72 hours before you want to go. Annan Creek now requires a pass--we saw more black bears there. The various hot springs need to be visited, as well as the villages.

By the way, AK is a big bite to chew for your first C Dory adventure. But it certainly can, and should be done. Have adequate tools, and spares aboard, also shop manual for that engine (great engine by the way).
 
When we went to Juneau, we used both the Evergreen Chart book and the Marine Atlas, Vol 2. Evergreen had a lot of entertaining information for the southern area, but we got the Marine Atlas for the northern area. It's cheaper. They're about the same in navigation information. I'm not sure if the Evergreen has been updated, but the Marine Atlas, Vol 1 we bought last year for Desolation Sound, etc. was updated in 2010. We went up in a 6 knt sailboat with 7' draft and had no trouble navigating with the chart books and you shouldn't either.

What you also need is a tyde and current table for Canadian and Alaskan waters. Canada Hydrographic has a good and cheap set of tables from which you can calculate the current at various passes. For the sailboat these calculations were critical, even with the C-25 you'll need them. OpenCpn (see below) comes with built-in tyde and current graphs for the nominal points.

Finally, it sounds as if you don't have electronic charting via a dedicated MFD. If you do, buy the chips for the areas you'll visit. Best investment you can make. If not, install OpenCpn, which is a free navigation program for your laptop and you can download it for you desktop for planning. OpenCpn works with the free NOAA raster charts, or NOAA vector/ENC charts. Buy a $50 USB GPS and you're home free in USA waters. You'll have to buy the Canadian charts, but if you're headed north from Prince Rupert, just use the chart books until you cross Dixon Entrance and are back in the USA.

Make sure you have some type of heat, even when you're anchored out. Our sailboat was a SoCal boat and didn't have any heat besides the oven. Coldest summer I ever spent. In fact Judy remembered that and the Wallis was the first C-Dory option she ordered. It's worked well for us, but you can't rebuild it on the fly.

BTW I run a 16" pitch on Journey On's Honda 150, just for another data point. And there are no Boat US type services where you're going. There aren't enough boats in VHF range to make it worthwhile. Both the USA and Canadian Coast Guard monitor VHF for distress calls and they're pretty good about answering/support.

When you get to Ketchican, be sure to cruise the Behm Canal, a National Park. And when you're in Prince Rupert, go south down the Grenville Channel to Bishops Bay, a neat trip

And, last, who was Prince Rupert? Besides a real man.

Boris
 
Boris

Prince Rupert WAS a real man. A Prince of the Rhine, and a leader of my Palatinian ancestors who were Rhineland vintners. He was significant in Canadian history -- Rupert's Land -- before Canada -- as a founder of the Hudson Bay Company.

Bill
 
Great! Thank you for the info. It is what I needed. To answer a few of your questions:

1) We have a Garmin 741 w/radar and sounder
2) We have coastal explorer --but no paper charts
3) We have a kicker, but changed from 9.9 to 6 HP to use on dinghy
I am a bit concerned about the tides with a kicker this small.

We need the prop, permatrim, and lots of practice over the next couple of months. Thanks all.
 
6 hp won't get you a lot of headway with a combo of wind, current and accompanying waves. But at least you will have options of going down current and down wind or holding the nose into the waves. No power at all is not an option.
 
Here is a recent thread discussing the use of smaller kicker motors.

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... highlight=

I think 6hp is fine for the 25 myself and if I were to do the same trip I would actually be using a gas 2.5 for our 19 angler. Ride it, don't fight it....

We have the same Garmin as you and also give that a thumbs up.
Paper charts.... we carry some basic fishing type charts or equivalent for the areas we go and use them mainly for planning purposes. Do you have a secondary chartplotter or other device with independent maps? That could be a backup at least for a detailed view.

We run three "chartplotters" on the boat at all times and not necessarily for safety reasons. Cindie likes to have one (7inch tablet) and I have one small and one large unit and run them at small and large scales for a better collective view.

Greg
 
Ok, if you have a Garmin 741, invest in the charts you need, both USA and Canada. Don't know how Garmin sells their charts, but they should have one chip, if that's the right word, that would cover all you need. And buy a chartbook.

I'm not too familiar with Costal Explorer, but a friend uses it. OpenCpn does as well and one can use NOAA charts. If you have to learn one or the other, try OpenCpn. It comes with tydes and currents, which, I believe, one has to pay extra for in CE. Yes I'm a salesman for it, but it certainly is as good as most of the commercial programs: Fugiawa, Cap'n, Costal Explorer. and it doesn't cost you anything.

If you need your kicker in the middle of a tidal race, you're screwed. Neither a 10 or 6 will do any good. We have a Honda 10 and hoist it on and off the dinghy as shown in setting up the dinghy. Fortunately the one time we needed it, near Seymour Rapids, we were between the rapids.

Bill, I'm impressed both by your background and your knowledge. He Was a buddy of one of the King Georges and was given Canada as a reward. So he's considered a founder of Canada. And Prince Rupert is a fairly new town, built as a shipping port for the railroads.

Boris
 
ghone":1gwsubsk said:
Alaska is big be self sufficient and prepped. Local boaters can help but Boat US may be sparse. Not sure check with them.
Click to expand...

This.

My advice would be to have an EPIRB for the boat, and a PLB (or better, I think the best product for this purpose is currently the Delorme InReach) for each person, a sharp knife, a storm whistle and emergency laser signal (the easiest way to see you from the air) as well as a small waterproof pouch that contains:

1. firestarter (bring extra, the place you are going is very rainy)
2. mylar blanket
3. Signal mirror

The above all stays on your person at all times (okay okay, anytime you leave the cabin).

You can buy kits with this stuff in a little zip lock, but I put my own together (less $$$) and double vac-pack them to keep them compact and dry. You should never need to get in and out of it until you need it, so the zip lock is not necessary. Leave a little extra room and put a rubber band or two in there so you can roll the open end down and bind it to keep out water, and put a little dessicant pack in there, like the kind in beef jerky (I seriously take the desicant out of beef jerky and use it). Don't add non-essentials to this kit, or you will be less likely to keep it on you at all times.

There is basically the USCG and the state troopers in Alaska (not sure about BC) for rescues, although the Troopers will be found near towns. Your beacons/EPIRB and VHF are the best means for signaling. Fishermen will likely hear distress calls on VHF and be the first on site, so if you have to ditch, EPIRBS and Beacons should be your first priority, but get that VHF call out if there is any way to do so, and your ability to speak in a calm, clear, and non-panicked voice may be the difference between life and death. If things are getting hairy, take note of a precise GPS coordinate BEFORE TSHTF so you can read it.

If you make it to shore, you then need to consider that you are likely in a very remote spot, and may have bear problems. That is a whole other subject that has numerous means of preparation, depending on your skill with a firearm, among other factors. A can of bear spray is a good idea for a ditch bag, but not practical (or a good idea) to carry at all times on a small boat). The bigger issue here is general survival. At this point, if you can memorize the 7 steps to survival you can fall back on that with some confidence, and prioritize your actions once you are on land. These are:

1. RECOGNIZE: That you are in a life threatening, survival situation

2. INVENTORY: everything you have on you, or that you have found (odds are some of your stuff will be around, maybe)

3. SIGNALS: There will be a huge search effort, and your best chance of being found is right after you signal the need for help. Signals need to be among the first things you do. The universal signal for HELP is three identical signals. This is usually three LARGE fires. The fires should be far enough apart on the shore so that a ship in the distance sees three distinct spots. If they are close, they will only see one spot. Hundreds of feet. The more distance the better, but you ned to maintain all 3 fires, so not too far. If you have your fire starter, you will be in a much better spot.

4. SHELTER: Exposure will get you quickly. Even if the weather happens to be wonderful, it can go to heck quickly. Get your refuge going as soon as signals are set. Don't forget about your signals though! Keep maintaining them.

5. WATER: This step being so low a priority is counter-intuitive to most, but truly, unless you are having health problems from severe dehydration, forego pursuing a water supply until steps 1-4 are taken care of.

6. FOOD: Not surprisingly comes right after water.

7. PLAY: If you get through steps 1-6, you may be in a position where you are going to be doing some Gilligan Time. At this point, so long as steps 1-6 are set, your priority should be making the best of a bad situation, finding something to stimulate your mind. If you are with others, play games. If you are alone, you need to occupy yourself, and maybe you should put a little thought into how you might do that before you are in that situation. I, for example, would probably try to make musical instruments out of whatever I could find. The important thing is that you understand the importance of this, and keep that importance in your mind if you become Gilligan.

I hope this helps. I make my career working in the deep Alaskan backcountry, and teach survival, boating, bear/firearm safety, etc. What I've posted above comes from hard earned experience, as well as very thorough research (by others) into the factors that have contributed to Gilligan's survival or demise after a stranding on a remote shore. [/u]
 
Hi Larry,

When we first cruised SE AK in our CD22 in 1996, we bought three "chart portfolios", full-size (but much thinner and lighter) B&W photocopies of most of the SE AK charts. These are available now from Bellingham Chart Printers, in both full and 2/3 size. The 2/3 size would be a total cost about $500.

https://tidesend.com/index.php/chart-po ... -se-alaska

We kept ours under the v-berth mattress in large ziplocs, organized in a sequence in which we might need them, and with a "table of contents" to help us find or replace a chart. Could email you the TOC if you like.

You will need a few Canadian charts, especially to get you through Venn Passage and on into Chatham Sound heading out from PR.

Could also email you a list we've developed of useful/preferred anchorages, with comments here and there, also in a sequence as you might encounter them. We keep it handy so we can quickly select a destination, and a few bailout or alternative anchorages along the way, without reading a few pages of Douglass every time. We do highly recommend the Douglass SE AK guide (and the BC ones too).

For the few places in SE AK where you really need the current tables, we copy and print from the NOAA web site, for the months we plan to be cruising each summer:

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/currents15/

You may need Sergiuus Narrows, Wrangell Narrows, Tlevak Narrows, Glacier Bay, and maybe a few more. Look for the ones with more significant current speeds.

If you will be using the VHF to get weather forecasts, could email you a form we use that makes it much quicker and easier to capture the data as the forecast is read out, without having to write so much, and then getting behind and waiting for it to come around again for what you missed. We print one for each day we anticipate being on the water. BTW, when you're in cell range on your smartphone, the NOAA weather site is great for forecasts.

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/zone/alaska/ajkmz.htm

If you're planning to hit Glacier Bay, I'd be happy to proivide the skinny on permitting etc. Strongly recommmend the Tracy Arm, even if you are doing Glacier Bay.

If you haven't yet arranged a place in PR to store truck and trailer, you might contact Les at Four Seasons Storage (250) 600-6702.

I would agree that you need spares and tools for the more common/simple repairs. If these are not sufficient, put out a VHF call to "any vessel in the vicinity of ...." for help. We've been the tow-er more than a few times. Friends have been towed as much as 70NM, by a commercial fisherman that had been heading the other direction. We've done our own repairs many times more.
 
Hi Larry,

Lots of of good advise being shared here, even if more than asked for. If you've done your homework & are prepared, I suspect the most danger you will encounter on this wonderful adventure you're planning will be on the road trip from your home to PR & back. If you have the time don't miss seeing the ports of Elfin Cove & Pelican. The waters too in that general area are some of the finest in SE Alaska for wildlife viewing & fishing. Also to get the most out of this cruise, make time for some off the main route exploring of especially the Admiralty, Chichagof & Baranof Island areas. Here, there's endless or at least seemingly so, beautiful remote coves & bays to enjoy. Of the area between Prince Rupert & Skagway, these Islands & the area of Hokum Bay including Tracy arm are our favorites of Southeast Alaska.

The Discovery & crew, Brent & Dixie & JoLee & I, on the HunkyDory will be heading south from Skagway & Sitka is one of our destinations too, so perhaps we will see you there or somewhere else up in the area this summer & share some cruising tales.

Several of us have written up our past cruises in Southeast Alaska & shared them along with some video from me in the Grand Adventure Forum. If you haven't already read them, I think it would be worth your while to do so before you leave.

Jay
 
Hi Jay,

New Moon will be wandering Southeast this summer too. Launching from PR, in Juneau by July 6, Sitka by July 23, and who knows where from there. Maybe we can meet up.
 
Kushtaka, That post on survival and the 7 steps is great. I printed it off to go into my on-board boat book. It is there for guests to look through when they get bored :lol: (Ahhh :oops: few guests :roll: and rarely bored :twisted:

There is a huge amount of worth in that posting, and anyone venturing out of sight of the marina should be looking at that to see how to apply it in any given situation, much like a pilot is always looking for the closest place for a put down, should the need arise.

Thank you for delineating those steps, and reminding us that anything can happen -- Murphy does not sleep.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

IMG_2044_sized_1.thumb.jpg
 
Thanks. It's almost a verbatim cut and paste from my training program, but I shortened things substantially, and I might cut and paste it back sd I posted it here. More to the point, and less scary.

There are some good books as well:

Deep Survival is good, but a little but heavy on glitz and drama, sometimes at the expense of conveying good info, so take with a grain of salt:

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival-Who ... p+survival

And Beating the Odds on Northern Waters is a great book, although a bit dry, and very much written for the commercial fisherman, although the info contained is very applicable, and spot on.

http://www.amazon.com/Beating-Northern- ... ern+waters

You can also call the Alaska DNR Boating Safety Office and talk to my buddy Joe McCullough and see what he thinks. They have put together some excellent movies that are worth watching and they do a lot of outreach. It is a small office, but they are very very very interested in you having a safe and happy trip through Alaska.

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/boating/

And if you make it all the way to Cordova (nobody ever does), give me a shout!
 
NewMoon":20q9v3fl said:
Hi Jay,

New Moon will be wandering Southeast this summer too. Launching from PR, in Juneau by July 6, Sitka by July 23, and who knows where from there. Maybe we can meet up.
Click to expand...
Hi Richard, with present planning we will most likely be on the water at Skagway around the 10th of June & Sitka late June early July via the outside route from Pelican with maybe a return to Sitka later. We will have our SPOT sending out tracks & posting comments when possible. It would be good to meet up again, so will be on the lookout for you.

Jay
 
Again, thank you for the responses. I ordered the permatrim last nite off the Shipyard Island website and it has already shipped. Also, ordered charts from Bellingham press.

Now, the prop--current prop is 3x16x21.5R. I plan to look for 3x16x17R ?
At WOT the RPM was 4000, around 20 knots. We had 6 people on the boat and about 2/3 loaded. Other improvements that added weight includes: full aft enclosure (per Brazo), engine and dinghy davit (per thataway) and 200 ft of 1/4in chain. Full with water and gas. Am still thinking of 17 inch pitch?

Trip plan includes getting to Prince Rupert early July and head for Juneau. Getting to Sitka on August 1, where we rented a house and having kids and grandkids fly in for 10 days of fishing, exploring and fun. Day trips out of Sitka. Then around the 3rd week in August--head for Prince Rupert. Not sure, but I hear the weather turns about that time. Not looking forward to towing a boat that far (SC to Prince Rupert and back), but the years are going by fast and it is either-- do it --or forget it. Hope to see some of you on the water. /Larry and Christine/
 
Though off track from Larry's questions, this is from one who has also read many books on wilderness survival & at almost 67 years of age spent a good deal of time in the wilderness alone or with others working or for pleasure do also recommend the book Deep Survival, however more enthusiastically than Kushtaka. It has been quite a few years since I've read this book, but a major important point I remember the author brought out is how some very experienced outdoorsman will take the one step to far that leads to their doom or at least major trouble by being caught in the exhilaration & wonder of an experience in a unique moment of time. This very much stuck home to me, being it has been a major flaw in my otherwise very good survival instincts shown throughout my life & others as the author indicated are susceptible as well. Reading this book made me more aware of this tendency in me & has helped me back off from some undertakings sometimes even without Jolee's additional input. JoLee also read this book & was very impressed by it too.

Larry, you're in for a treat having chose well, Sitka as a home base for your cruise.

Jay
 
Back
Top