So, then there is this....

The Cutwater owner is understandably upset, who wouldn't be. But design/quality concerns aside, seems like he might have set himself up for an adversarial relationship right from the get-go, both with the dealer and Fluid Motion, just by the tone of his communications (eg, see post #3 email with list of demands prior to construction, and other early accounts describing correspondence with the dealer). Friends who know me know I'm not a big fan of these fancy boats, but for some reason I am finding it difficult to sympathize with him. I think he'd be a bit more successful in his online company shaming attempt by toning it down a few notches and just telling the facts rather than embellishing those tales. But then again, I'd be pretty worked up too if in his shoes...

-Mike
 
OUCH :!:

Interesting rigging question. Are they all rigged the same or do different dealers rig differently?

This one would be interesting to follow.

Mike, I missed the email list you referred to.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

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I’ve thoroughly explored Teslin Lake in our C-Dory & some of it in a Inflatable. I tried several days with the inflatable in 2002 to go up the lake, but was beat back each time by rough water. In 2003 in the C-Dory, we made it all the way to its head & some up the inflowing river. On the way back we had strong winds & waves more like Yellowstone Lake can produce on our stern. It is a Inland Lake, but can kick up much bigger waves then 2 feet. It’s not very wide, but near 100 miles long. There may well have been only 2 feet of chop, then again it’s possible to have been much more.

Jay
 
First, I want to say this was an interesting read. I hope to follow along.

He comes off like a spoiled child with his interactions with the boat house. I don't know how people who pay cash for a $300k+ boat normally behave, but I felt really sorry for Dave and Brad who had to navigate the deal. If he didn't get the best customer service of his life, it might have been due to his abrasiveness.

A couple of things don't add up for me though. Who has the extra funds to purchase the boat, plan and provision for a trip through the inside passage, hire all these people (and boss them around like they're servants :lol: ) to work on his vessel, but doesn't bother to purchase insurance? I mean you can't even moor at some marinas without proving you have insurance. It doesn't make any sense to me.

The other thing, is that "protected harbor" doesn't look protected at all. It actually looks like a really bad spot in the photo, completely unprotected and open to a long fetch if weather goes south. Which they often do in the fall up north. The proof of the calm seas the night before - the small fishing boat without water in it, may or may not have actually been there. It could have just as easily been docked there after the fact. Whos gonna know in a remote place like that? Typically a boat of that size is not moored to a small floating dock like that with no pilings for long periods of time.

I don't know what this person's motivation would be in all this, but I just think it smell fishy to me.

Also, this really made me appreciate the simplicity and ruggedness of our beautiful c-dory 22' cruiser :wink
 
PaulNBriannaLynn":2w10ahds said:
...

Also, this really made me appreciate the simplicity and ruggedness of our beautiful c-dory 22' cruiser :wink
Click to expand...

However, I would think that even a C-Dory would have had problems if tied to a dock with the stern facing 2 foot waves.

I wouldn't have tied to the boat to that dock like was shown in the drawing if for nothing else than to keep the waves from bashing it against the dock.
 
One of the reasons I retired as early as possible from retail sales. The advent of email seems to make many customers feel entitled to be rude. It always amazed me that some folks thought that the path to getting a salesperson on their side in negotiating a fair deal was to show him where the bear did-you-know-what in the woods. I read the first email and instantly recognized at best a difficult to please, very high maintenance customer and at the worst a very losing proposition. I’m sure the salesperson knew from the emails that if he sat down with this customer at the show he would be glued to him and his demands until closing time or beyond. I don’t see it as bad customer service so much as self defense. I ain’t sayin’, I’m just sayin’. Please keep us posted!
 
As in many Marine disputes there are faults on both sides--Certainly Cutwater, definitely the "Port Boat House" and finally the owner--the worse of which is not to have insurance. I have a friend who "under insured" a Tayana 57, only on a trip deck load from Taiwan to Hong Kong--a day trip. The boat never arrived and was a total loss. Then there is the liability issue. The risk of damage or loss of the boat going up the outside (didn't really do the "inland passage"; Started from Port Alberni--probably not the best of choices to start with!

One of the reasons to buy a new boat is that it can be customized. Mistake here may be because the work was done at Port Boat House. I had asked for several simple changes in my Tom Cat bought new in 2006. I was called one day by a gentleman who is now high up in the Cutwater Ranger group who said. There will be no changes--the boat is done--take it or leave it. I was not a happy camper. We made a semi compromise (I did the compromising). My punch list with the boat was abuts extensive as this cutwater--leaks, shower drain not hooked up. Electrical and fuel problems. I fixed them myself, so I knew they would be done correctly. The steering went out--I got some help from dealer with bleeding system.

But it is unconscionable the design of that boat. My suspicion is that the control races were placed under the platform to give a "clean look" to the swim platform.
Perhaps the Spontoons were were added because of the increased weight way aft over the weight of the inboard hulls further forward.

Apparently the aluminum skiff also at the dock and stern to the waves did not get any water into it.

As is many of these cases the only real winner is the attorney. Hopefully Cutwater will modify the design--should be a recall and all of those boats either sealed completely--more and adequate bilge pumps--etc.

If it had been a c Dory with the utilitarian non liner the clean up would have been far easier....
 
Thanks Bob for a great summary.

I just can’t image why anyone (rich or poor) would not pay the relatively minimal price to insure a $300,000 asset against loss from any cause.
If lightning had struck this boat and it burned to the waterline, would this guy sue God or the Canadian Weather Service in the BC superior court, or would he have happily shrugged his shoulders and said, ‘hey, I chose to self-insure, and $300,000 down the drain is no big deal to me’?

Not to mention liability insurance, where any local runaway jury could have awarded a $10 million verdict against him for some judgement error in an accident. Perhaps he would have again shrugged his shoulders and said, “hey, $10 million down the drain is no big deal to me. The girls will still go to best colleges on the continent.”

All that said, we have seen several of these Cutwater 302 with twin Yamaha 300hp outboards at the 3 Ranger/Cutwater Gatherings we attended in 2018 (is that a C-Brat member record for 1 year?). We were not impressed by how the superb ‘fit and finish’ resulted in through-hulls and wiring and utility runs etc that were totally inaccessible from inside the boat (alluded to in survey #2). They look like inboard diesel boats converted too quickly to multi-outboard boats, marine engineering be damned.

Marc Grove’s summary of ‘10# of s*** in a 5# bag’ for the Cutwater line strikes me as ‘best said.’ Good line, Marc.

Interesting story, but I don’t see how any outcome will satisfy all those involved. If you are rich, buy insurance. If you are poor, buy insurance. If you are in between, buy insurance. If you never think you will need insurance, buy insurance. If you think you need a lot more insurance than you really do, buy insurance.

I hope I have made my point that buying insurance is generally a good bet re the bad deals that real life can deal out.

And after that…none of us gets out of this alive.

John
 
John, You make a very good point ---> Buy Insurance It's not that hard and it might pay off. And, if you never need it, be thankful for that.

I have seen a bunch of Ranger Tugs, and several Cutwaters, and had the opportunity to get a nice tour of one at Jones Island. For those who are not looking closely, they are very impressive. For a guy who loved my CJ-5 for simplicity and accessibility, that Cutwater looked very complicated.

After going through that whole blog, there is a whole story behind the story. After a lifetime of dealing with the public, generally when it was not there best day, I think I have pretty good patience, and I think it might have been worn pretty thin somewhere along that line.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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I can only give my personal experience with Port Boat House. I bought a 23 Venture from them in 2009. There were a couple of very minor issues with the boat in the first months, as there are with any new boat, and these were promptly addressed by Dave and Mike. Over the next 7 years I could always call them when I had questions and they were there to answer and support me. I met up with them at boat shows over those years and they always had time to answer questions as well as show me new boats and features. I recommended them to some people and they thanked me later. When it was time to move on to our current R25SC Ranger Tug Dave gave me a very fair trade and Brad worked with me to get the boat commissioned and delivered. In the two years since I bought the boat I have always had the same good support, though my issues have been minor. I have met people whose experience has not been the same as mine, including someone with a Ranger Tug, but I can only relate my own personal experience with PBH.

Other comments:

Repeat everything said about insurance and add that I'm fairly confident both PBH and Fluid will have good business insurance.

I have never felt that Ranger owns the TugNuts site any more than CD owns this one. They answer questions direct from the factory and there are critical postings made with responses.

In my opinion some of the modifications made were significant customization and if I had been PBH I may have been somewhat reluctant to modify a boat until full payment was made. When I ran a business decisions like that were influenced partially by my personal relationship with the customer and a feeling whether I could work with them in case of issues. This blog would not have given me a warm feeling from the beginning. Again, just my opinion.

Fluid has grown exponentially in recent years, adding Cutwater to Ranger and expanding the range well beyond the original. I have always been an outboard lover but the later models and Cutwater were not for me for a number of reasons. I went with the well proven 25 diesel inboard and I am very happy with the boat. The systems are far more complex that the 23 Venture and there's lots to learn and maintain but I knew that going into the purchase.

I currently mentor entrepreneurs in the start up phase. The first 2-3 years are critical. After that period the stresses come when there is rapid expansion (think Tesla). There are often new systems put in place for customer relations, design, production, servicing, inventory control etc.. Problems will occur. They have to be resolved and that usually costs money, often a lot. Sometimes the company resizes back into something smaller, successful on another level. (Think C-Dory).

If I could turn back the clock, having today's knowledge, would I make the same purchase? The answer is 'yes' and from Port Boat House.

(Before you yell SHILL please check my posts over many years.)
 
Granted that there are issues and blame to go around, my concern is with the basic issues that point to quality control at Cutwater/Ranger. Things like windows not sealed and drains not hooked up are pretty basic stuff and there should be a QA process to avoid simple errors like that. If I were spending $300K on a boat I would expect that there would be no problems due to simple stuff that could easily be checked. There should be a test cruise by the factory staff in typical weather conditions before the boat is released for delivery. In the PNW it should not be difficult to perform a water ingress test by simply letting the boat sit outside the factory for a couple of days.

Not counting the stuff the owner did that seems to have contributed to the boat sinking, the level of quality control that appears to be present in the Cutwater factory does not give me a warm fuzzy about buying one of their boats. My wife is quite keen on the Ranger(Cutwater) 23, but maybe it's not all that it's cracked up to be.
 
Yes, the guy is demanding. No, I would not wish to deal with him. So what?
He was screwed, bad.
The marine business is tough. It's even tougher when word gets out you are building unsafe, poorly built boats with a bad dealership to boot.
We have only seen one side of the story but it is damning.
 
Thanks for sharing this blog. This is disturbing to read! And all this happened within the the same year. Crazy.

On a side note: I will never buy a new boat. I'd much rather prefer to let the first owner take the huge depreciation hit and fix all the kinks over a few years. Then I'll buy it when he sells it!
 
I look at the new cutwater boats where I launch In Bellingham. They sure look nice.

Seems to me at best there is some mututal negligence.

The boat owner certainly spent lots of time and energy on damming the situation. If he spent a fraction of that time monitoring his own boat and moorage he would probably still have a boat even though it would need work.

My main concern as an owner of one of those boats would be is do they typically turn upside down when they get water in them? They mention they had time to have a drink on the boat as well as admiring the blue boat from the shore.. seems like the issue with water getting into the outboard support would not have happened instantly or only that day?


what happens to a c-dory 22 cruiser, 2006, if it fills with water? do they turn upside down?

It can be very difficult dealing with the public. I used to do remodeling and home building. I was very selective with my customers!!! If I did not like them I did not do business with them. PERIOD! most of my customers were working class medium income people like me. Modest homes, 1200 to 1500 sq ft. I did do some projects for very wealthy folks. It always seemed to me that most wellthy people were very nice to deal with, and the ones who were not were easy to spot..and avoid.. I passed on one attorney propesctive customer I had bad vibes about, he bankrupted the fellow who took the job! (I have known 4 attorneys I admire, so there are some good folks in that field)

I am happy to say that none of my houses filled with water and capsized.
In 20 years plus of building my worst customer relations problem was of my own creation.. I had a written guarantee on my new homes that for the first year I would personly see to it that all probelms were fixed by me..
Well one of my customers called me each time a light bulb burned out! Pre led bulbs etc,. I changed the bulbs and after that my future agreements.

It will be most interesting to see how this plays out...

the owner likes to quote the Cutwater rep "we are here to help"
but where does that help stop and personal responsability take over?

I do not have much boating experience even in a boat like our recently aquired C-Dory 22 cruiser, so from a real boaters persepective I do not have a background to really say... sadly this may come to be a court decision, and the process may cost more than the boat? No winners here...

Think I will go out to the shop and look at my C-dory safe on the trailer, and I keep it insured even in the shop..

Which reminds me I need to do a very Positive comment/review on E.Q harbor service..we all need good news..and they are the best!
 
what happens to a c-dory 22 cruiser, 2006, if it fills with water? do they turn upside down?
Click to expand...

Most boats turn turtle when filled with water (unless they sink--many sailboats, with lots of ballast go right to the bottom keel first). We observed a research vessel which filled with water (Maybe the bilge drain plug was not put in place? At our Alton IL gathering.). It would have turned turtle if the dock had not supported it. I have seen many motor vessels in the C Dory size which have turned turtle--and some much larger vessels. There are many factors. But when an air bubble is trapped under the bow--as in this Cutwater--the boat will float bottom up.
 
As I reread the blog the owners habits raised some red flags. He would not alter his schedule to adequately deal with the issues. Yes there were too many.
He didn't seem interested in repairing or maintaining the boat himself.
Mooring the boat stern to the prevailing wind and fetch was not smart. And did he make a habit out of leaving the access ports on the hull extension open? One could easily question his common sense what with not buying insurance.
I'm not holding the builder or dealer blameless, see my earlier post on that.

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Having only heard one side to this sad tale........it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a certain degree a quality control when purchasing anything costing over $300k and to except that same degree of customer care from the company doing the final delivery.

I thought the customer was very clear and detailed in his expectations given how far he had to travel to pick up the boat. I'm not sure how far Port Alberni is from the Yukon but it's a ways. He did ask many times whether the various items were compete and was always assured everything was compete......except maybe the BBQ.

Regarding the direction the boat was tied-up, without knowing whether wind direction is variable on that lake, it's unfair to assess blame on that.

It's also unfair to pass judgement on the likelihood or unlikelihood of the owner performing maintenance. The boat was brand new. There shouldn't be any required maintenance, yet. Again not knowing much about the Yukon, it seems like folks there would tend to be more self-sufficient that others.

Regarding the insurance, it would have simplified things enormously, for the owner, but given the scenario as presented, the lack of insurance is beside the point.
 
I am just getting caught up on this post. Very quickly because I have to turn over the keys to house that cost less then this boat I have to say that any commits about insurance are beside the point. the boat did not sink due to lack of insurance . lack of insurance is a dick move but b=not responsible for the sinking of this boat and not remedy for the coming lawsuit. In fact a insurance company lawyer is the best reason for insurance.

Any commits about the buyers attitude is also invalided. The customer is always right. ALways. I may bitch about some of my crazier clients while on the dock with a Rum in my hand but they are always right. The amount of items that were not completed or checked out was outrageous. How does a boat leave the factory let alone the dealer with out the water drains hooked up in several places. the house I closed on today got a walk thru before closing and and inspection before purchase, cant imagine not doing the same to a brand new boat. Hell when I bought an brand new car last year I spent a hour or more checking everything including the oil because I do not trust auto mechanics at all, ever.

As far as what sunk the boat the two reports tell the story fairly well. And given the other poorly installed systems and lack of over site before the boat left the factory I would be inclined to believe it.

Now one last thing. You buy a boat and use it for a summer and it sinks in front of your house?? thats your problem to take care of recovery. I do not see why the owner was so concerned with what the builder or dealer was going to do. I get my truck stuck of road I dont call Honda, I call a tow truck. If its hondas fault i will take it up with them later.

Now as I own a 27 sea dory with added on off shore bracket with engine controls coming thur the hull just abot the water line ( ok a ft above the water line) and have backed down into 4 ft waves, mostly 2 ft, while fishing for lings and shrimping and have never had any water in the bracket or the storage compartment.. I will be doing some more looking and assessing sealing in this area. Hell I might even install a pump.
 
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