small radar

If your primary purpose for having radar on a small boat is collision avoidance, do
you also have AIS transceiver/receiver or MARPA abilities to automatically calculate
another vessel in close proximity's ID, speed, range, bearing, safe or dangerous
indication, closest point of approach, time to closest point of approach and
perhaps other helpful information?

Short of having the aforementioned collision avoidance aids, from a typical radar screen,
are you able to manually calculate and record the above safety factors on a
radar plotting board?

Or, like many, do you "just wing it"?

Just trying to understand.

Aye.
 
I suppose it's like having autopilot but once you have radar it's hard to image boating without it. Is it required? Probably not but it's such a useful tool and easy to use with a little practice.

Btw, Panbo has a nice article on the Furuno DRS4W here.
 
There's a lot of discussion here about radar range and it's usefulness that IMHO seems a little detached from reality or at least from the typical reality in the PacNW. In practice, as was stated above, most small boat radar will not see more than about 6-8 miles as it's line of sight and not mounted that high. So that idea that a 15 mile range is somehow useful is, for the most part, nonsense. The rest of the comments below apply to mostly typical small boat radars and not the very high end, higher power, large antenna radars that the occasional sport fishing boat purchases.

First, if you're really concerned about seeing those large vessels (tankers and cargo ships) at a greater distance you're much better off having an AIS receiver on the boat. All vessels over 300 gross tons, all tankers and all passenger vessels over 150 tons are required to transmit AIS. With AIS, you will not only see those vessels at much greater range, the AIS system will tell you the speed, direction of travel and usually the intended destination.

Second, as far as seeing weather on the radar goes, the practical experience is that you can generally see it as well with your eyes as with the radar since the range of the radar is only 6-8 miles. Once you are in the weather, you can't see outside of it due to the excessive rain clutter and your ability to see very far within the weather is further limited.

Third, while the radar will show you the outline of land features, the map on your chart plotter provides far more information about the land (and underwater contours) and is far easier to interpret. So IMHO, the idea that the radar is a useful navigation aid is also nonsense. With a decent GPS and a backup/secondary GPS (hopefully at least one that is battery powered) + a depth sounder, the navigation is covered.

IMHO, the best use for small boat radar is relatively short range, high resolution detection of boats in the fog. I typically have my radar on when it's foggy out and when visibility is limited, I'm moving fairly slow. I'm often fishing in such conditions and there are often other small craft in the area. A typical range setting I use in such conditions is 1-2 miles as that provides the resolution needed to weave between targets. Occasionally, there are sport boats that are zooming around at 20-30 kts in such conditions and my short range will only give me 1-3 minutes notice of a boat coming my way so a high level of attention and diligence is required. In somewhat less foggy conditions or less crowded fishing, I might use a range as large as 4 miles but I can't recall a time in 100's of hours of radar use where I got useful information from a larger range scan.

One thing to realize is that larger range scans generally reduce the size of the return signal display on your screen. With a typical 8-10" (occasionally 12") screen, the return signals for long range scans can be quite small. Also, the rocking motion of the boat in anything but the most calm sea state, will often result in a target only being picked up on percentage of the scans. Often times, the difference between wave formed clutter and a real signal is the occurrence of the real signal in the same spot repeatedly. Shorter range scans make it easier to pick up the smaller boats since the size of the return on the screen is larger. So IMHO, the primary useful range of small boat radar is most often in the <4 mile range.
 
williwaw":34dlnhok said:
I suppose it's like having autopilot but once you have radar it's hard to image boating without it. Is it required? Probably not but it's such a useful tool and easy to use with a little practice.

Btw, Panbo has a nice article on the Furuno DRS4W here.

I read the review with great interest and then crossed that unit off my list. I then read the comments of rogerbum and they pretty much crystallized what I had been thinking. I have AIS capability on the radio and use frequently to avoid larger vessels. My old Lowrance plotter won't connect to a modern radar dome but I like the charts (non-HD) and the sonar screen. For updated charts I have my iPad mounted with the Navionics App running. That also lets me see the Environment Canada weather radar with time lapse. Combining that with WX reports and alerts on the radio has me covered in that regard. I am just left with reduced visibility (fog). I don't go out if it's forecast and so far it hasn't been an issue otherwise. I DO have a concern that I sometimes spend more time than I should looking at screens (to which radar would be an addition) and not enough looking out for the primary danger which is logs, junk, kelp and other flotsam.

Thanks all for some really helpful comments.
 
I don't think it's possible to make absolute statements as to the usefulness of radar and navigation. In big open water that may be true, but I have found it helpful in more confined areas - particularly those with obstructions.

One example is the Multnomah channel here in the Portland area. It wanders to and fro and is filled with uncharted pilings. At slow speeds my Raymarine e7D (and I suspect others) doesn't always represent COG accurately so in narrow waterways I find it reassuring to see the returns from the shore and pilings.
 
rogerbum":obkp7pcn said:
SNIP So IMHO, the idea that the radar is a useful navigation aid is also nonsense. SNIP

So, don't take my word for it. Here's just one reference on using radar for navigation.

From http://www.defender.com/html/radar_info.html

Q: How can I navigate with radar?
A: Fishing vessels and pleasure boats continually use radar to help them navigate to their favorite fishing spots. When heading to a particular spot, the forces of wind and current combine to shift the vessel off its intended course. To determine your position and to counter vessel drift, use the VRM (Variable Range Marker) and the EBL (Electronic Bearing Line) to mark range and bearing to fixed targets.

Note: " pleasure boats continually use radar to help them navigate...".

and see the

Typical Radar Screen with "Lollipop" Indicator

at the above reference.

Of course, the lollipop showing a waypoint does not have to be a fav fishing
spot. It may be a harbor entrance in a blow used in conjunction with your chart
plotter/GPS which may be a welcome addition (if you're the type that works up
a sweat in foul weather), albeit redundant..

Aye.
 
williwaw":5h0e2ljk said:
I don't think it's possible to make absolute statements as to the usefulness of radar and navigation. In big open water that may be true, but I have found it helpful in more confined areas - particularly those with obstructions.

One example is the Multnomah channel here in the Portland area. It wanders to and fro and is filled with uncharted pilings. At slow speeds my Raymarine e7D (and I suspect others) doesn't always represent COG accurately so in narrow waterways I find it reassuring to see the returns from the shore and pilings.
I can agree with that but there radar is being primarily used for object avoidance and not really navigation per say. It is in such conditions where the high resolution of a short range scan is most useful. That's where the digital radars really shine - high resolution display and short range scans. These low power digital radars are much better under those conditions than the older, higher power radars.
 
Yes as Foggy says, I've been pretty much winging it, for the last 13 seasons with my now 13 year old JCR 1500 radar in pretty much the manner Roger so well described. It may well be for others who boat in much more congested traffic than me a up grade would be in order, but being as I've only twice been caught in fog, I couldn't avoid & only three more times ventured out in fog, I could have avoided in well over 8000 miles cruising in Southeast Alaska, I think I'll save my money until they come up with a new radar I can't resist. I do run with a radar reflector.

Jay
 
I'm very impressed with the Simrad Broadband 4G radar I installed on the Nordic. I can navigate through the marina in zero visibility with it using the 1/8 nautical mile range setting. Just last week I picked up a mooring buoy in the dark using the 200 foot range setting. This morning leaving Friday Harbor I easily picked up kayakers at 1/4 nautical mile. And unlike the Raymarine that came off the boat, the Simrad auto tune and clutter settings are very good...I can't consistently beat it tuning manually except in very rough conditions.

I was on a Northern Marine recently with 25kw and 12kw Furuno open array radar sets and a Simrad 4G unit. The owner reported the Simrad is better close in despite it costing a fraction of what either Furuno cost. Beyond a couple miles, though, the Furuno's apparently do better.

Beyond 6 nautical miles or so the Broadband Radar seems to lose any advantage over similarly sized pulse radars and may even be worse. By 12 nm I think it's definitely worse. But I rarely operate radar beyond 6nm...in the PNW there's often a landmass blocking the views beyond that. AIS is good for finding the big guys further out.
 
Foggy":391gdtyw said:
rogerbum":391gdtyw said:
SNIP So IMHO, the idea that the radar is a useful navigation aid is also nonsense. SNIP

So, don't take my word for it. Here's just one reference on using radar for navigation.

From http://www.defender.com/html/radar_info.html

Q: How can I navigate with radar?
A: Fishing vessels and pleasure boats continually use radar to help them navigate to their favorite fishing spots. When heading to a particular spot, the forces of wind and current combine to shift the vessel off its intended course. To determine your position and to counter vessel drift, use the VRM (Variable Range Marker) and the EBL (Electronic Bearing Line) to mark range and bearing to fixed targets.

Note: " pleasure boats continually use radar to help them navigate...".

and see the

Typical Radar Screen with "Lollipop" Indicator

at the above reference.

Of course, the lollipop showing a waypoint does not have to be a fav fishing
spot. It may be a harbor entrance in a blow used in conjunction with your chart
plotter/GPS which may be a welcome addition (if you're the type that works up
a sweat in foul weather), albeit redundant..

Aye.

That Defender text looks like it was written awhile ago. Now just find me someone with a good GPS/chartplotter system who actually uses radar to navigate - e.g. to get from point A to point B. Especially in the areas where the vast majority of us boat. All I'm saying is that in practice, these days, radar is an object/vessel avoidance tool and chart plotters are the navigational tool. Now if I were to roll the clock back a good number of years - then a paper chart plus radar to tell one where was really at would make radar an important navigational tool.
 
The demands here in the Lower Chesapeake Bay is a lot different than in the PNW area as I see it, so I can't address the confines described.

I do have the older RayMarine C80 Chart Plotter with the 4KW RADAR & 6001 S1G autopilot and the GARMIN 6001 chart plotter, i.e., 2 GPS systems.

I do not have an excuse for getting lost in the fog. I have been confused such as when a commercial fishing vessel with extended outriggers came running down the channel edge with its RADAR operating in the fog and we did not see each other. I did not hear any fog signals from him, but I had sever RADAR display interference from somewhere and my 'swivel head looking found nothing. While navigating in this heavy fog, if it were not for Dave's warning on ALMAS ONLY, we would have been run over by that 90' fishing vessel. Thanks again, Dave.

The point here is to not only practice your navigation skills, but also the use of ALL the RADAR's functions. The time to do this is in good WX and get a jump on the 'learning curve'. I have since learned to track WX fronts, manual tuning(like the old ASW RADARs) and vessel wake tracking, to mention a few.

The above RADAR ideas have been shared before by many others here and they are still around to tell the tales of mistaken and experiences.

My USN aviation, TV broadcast engineering and USCGAUX experiences just makes me dangerous if I don't learn from others and my own life's track record. I thank all you C-Brats who have lent your toolbox of knowledge to us.

Now about that new 'digital' RADAR and how it differs from the earlier versions. I do have some reading to do here. What a trip this will be.

Art
 
I had made a post several days ago, which apparently didn't make it to the forum (traveling, with marginal internet access)

One of my comments was that there was a "person oriented" radar way back in the 60's. It was called the "Whistler", and was a box about 12" x 10" x 8", with shoulder straps, and you had head phones to listen for echo returns. You could turn one way or another--and timing the echo would give an approximate location. It may have been better than nothing, but not much better…..

Technically a non moving radar will be just about as expensive as many of the small boat radars we have today.

I happen to occasionally have need for longer distance radar (and in my cruising, 12 to 16 miles was the norm.) For most of the C Dory work there is a lot to be said for the 3G and 4G from Lowrance/Simrad. The power is very low, there is better discrimination between two nearby targets.

I many who depend on cell towers for "Apps" to show weather or AIS--of course have to have good cell reception--and this can be extended by a good antenna, and amp (Wilson). But certainly having an AIS currently is right up there with Radar in low visibility. Comments about seeing weather--is fine during the day, but not at night or in fog/wind blown spray etc. There is also satellite weather--more expensive, but for some a very good idea.

One of the most important issues with radar is to learn how to use it, and how to tune your radar. Many use "auto" all of the time. There are adjustments which will almost always give a better picture and idea what is going on.

Yes, being able to track, use MARPA, overlay are all important, and are skills which should be learned. Use all of the tools in the box, with skill, practice often, and use the brain power to integrate all of these.
 
There are a number of devices that have revolutionized navigation. So I'm surprised at some of the thoughts expressed here. Fog, darkness and stupidity are still with us, so why wouldn't you use those aids: GPS, AIS and radar?

I bought a Evergreen chart book of the PNW about 10 years ago. The author, bless his soul, provided a lot of chart annotations giving information about ship wrecks, collisions and sinkings. Most of them were in fog or at night, where the ship was in the wrong place hitting a shoal or colliding with another ship. And, of course there was stupidity, operational day or night.

So, think about the chances of those accidents happening today. First, we have GPS which lets you know where you are to an astounding degree of accuracy. Then there's radar which "sees" through fog and darkness, miles away. AIS gives some position and speed for ships as well as those small boats which have it. Don't forget depth sounders, which we take for granted. And chartplotters which display all that information in a manner that's intuitive, relieving us the time consuming chore of plotting all that data. That only leaves stupidity, for which there's no know sensor.

So, why is there an argument about the use of the available information? I don't ask that everybody buy all those instruments, but then you have to accept that you are have some increased risk boating in fog, darkness, etc. And don't knock those who have and use them. Accept the safety improvement and enjoy it.

Boris
 
Hi Boris

I fully agree with what you have said so I am simply posing a question to spark discussion.

As I have mentioned before, I think the most dangerous thing I am likely to encounter in my local waters, especially after a high tide, is floating junk. It could be a tree stump that would be a threat to the boat or just a simple prop breaker but I find there's a lot of it out there. With my sonar, charts on my iPad and my ais receiver I sometimes think I spend too much time looking at screens and not at the water ahead and the boats around me. Could we have a threat of something akin to distracted driving? In BC the use of mobile phones etc has passed alcohol as the leading cause of accidents.

Interesting or?
 
chimoii

You're absolutely right. We've been talking about all the fancy sensors we now have and how they could be improved. And what they let you do. And of course that ignores the first rule: reality is just out the window, not in the sensor data and we have to acknowledge that.

We need to keep a look out the window to see what is really happening there. When we took Our Journey up to Alaska, there was a "log watch" and sad to say, Boris was sometimes found wanting, daydreaming. We also met a boat in Port Hardy that needed a new I/O drive because they didn't see that log until it was too late. And in SoCal we have sun fish, which took out the prop shaft on a friends boat.

So no safety device can replace your eyes, hearing and probably your nose.

Boris
 
chimoii":cxeq75g5 said:
Hi Boris

I fully agree with what you have said so I am simply posing a question to spark discussion.

As I have mentioned before, I think the most dangerous thing I am likely to encounter in my local waters, especially after a high tide, is floating junk. It could be a tree stump that would be a threat to the boat or just a simple prop breaker but I find there's a lot of it out there. With my sonar, charts on my iPad and my ais receiver I sometimes think I spend too much time looking at screens and not at the water ahead and the boats around me. Could we have a threat of something akin to distracted driving? In BC the use of mobile phones etc has passed alcohol as the leading cause of accidents.

Interesting or?
I've heard that argument before and I know that for some it may apply. However, to me, it seems like many of my "fancy sensors" and electronic equipment actually allow me to place my attention where it is most needed. For example, it doesn't take long with AIS to see what large vessels are around and to determine their direction (and speed and destination if desired). Once I know where they're at, where they're going and their current speed, I know how often I need to check on them (or in some cases I know they are of no concern). The radar will tell me if there are other vessels in the immediate area and if not, I can focus my intention more on the water in front of me than on the sides or to the rear. Autopilot (not a sensor but something that works off the heading sensor and GPS) keeps the boat moving on the intended course and allows me to be more focussed on what is out the window than on driving the boat. So, I think that depending on how one uses all this "fancy" stuff, it can actually increase your attention to the things that matter most.
 
This discussion reminds me of a head to head sideswipe some 15 years ago down here off Hammond, OR, involving a freighter under pilotage in the channel and a USCG buoy tender, both fully outfitted with radar, etc., under obscured conditions. The pilot asked the tender to edge out of the channel to provide draft for his vessel, using the language, "kiss the beach". The tender trusted radar to provide the needed clearance. It did not, and the overhang on the freighter cleaned off part of the superstructure and did some hull damage. Minor injuries, nothing serious, both vessels operable. The subsequent inquiry skewered the pilot.
 
To the nay-sayers that small boat radar is not a commonly used navigational
tool: are you aware that using the variable range marker (VRM) and the
electronic bearing line (EBL) on your radar "is" a navigational use of the radar?

Aye.
 
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