Service costs

JakeB, I like your ability to do it yourself, and there is logic to that.

Bridma, I do it the way you do, for several reasons. I would rather have the pros, so I can count on the OB's working when I want/need them. Also, I would rather be spending boating time on the water, instead of in the shop.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon
 
Bongo - in your example there would definately be added drag with a dead leg down. Mostly from the prop - hense the use of feathering props on sailboats.

Fuel use should be less at 6 knots with 1 eng. than at 6 knots with 2 engines. At planing speeds - depending on the hull and how heavily it is loaded fuel use tends to level out. Maybe the single/twin guys can debate this! :lol:

As for speed - if the engine rpm's remain the same a boat should theoretically travel the same distance no matter how many engines are propelling it.

I agree - it is a good idea to get familiar with your boats systems, but even though I am a class A (auto) mechanic - I still take my boat to a marina for anything I do not feel confident about doing. As a side note, most car dealerships labour rates are around $100.hr. and they have all year to make money. A marina (around here anyway) has only a short season to make their business a success.

Regards, Rob
 
Due to living here in Wyoming far from a Honda Marine service center, I was reconciled to do my own service from the day of purchase over 10 years ago. Now with 1500 hours on these still purring motors, I've already saved enough money on service & other maintenance cost to purchase a new replacement of one & well on the way to the other when they are needed. I dislike doing any maintenance on home, car or boat & I'm not all that mechanically inclined, but confident enough to do the work needed right & in many cases with more trust in the outcome then if serviced by the professionals. Of course if something serious goes wrong with the motors then to the professional I will go, but so far in 1500 hours its only been routine service maintenance other than replacing two charge coils. When it comes to just the appearance of the boat my work on it does not have to be that precise, but where our lives are depending on critical components to not let us down, while cruising in areas where help in time or even at all may not be an option, I'm extremely finicky in doing service & repairs.

Jay
 
Hunkydory":1elrlnco said:
Due to living here in Wyoming far from a Honda Marine service center, I was reconciled to do my own service from the day of purchase over 10 years ago. Now with 1500 hours on these still purring motors, I've already saved enough money on service & other maintenance cost to purchase a new replacement of one & well on the way to the other when they are needed. I dislike doing any maintenance on home, car or boat & I'm not all that mechanically inclined, but confident enough to do the work needed right & in many cases with more trust in the outcome then if serviced by the professionals. Of course if something serious goes wrong with the motors then to the professional I will go, but so far in 1500 hours its only been routine service maintenance other than replacing two charge coils. When it comes to just the appearance of the boat my work on it does not have to be that precise, but where our lives are depending on critical components to not let us down, while cruising in areas where help in time or even at all may not be an option, I'm extremely finicky in doing service & repairs.

Jay
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Jay, do you Have the full service manual and you think it is worth what you paid for it? I have always gotten one and think it is!

Charlie
 
Captains Cat":1tm2xskj said:
Hunkydory":1tm2xskj said:
Due to living here in Wyoming far from a Honda Marine service center, I was reconciled to do my own service from the day of purchase over 10 years ago. Now with 1500 hours on these still purring motors, I've already saved enough money on service & other maintenance cost to purchase a new replacement of one & well on the way to the other when they are needed. I dislike doing any maintenance on home, car or boat & I'm not all that mechanically inclined, but confident enough to do the work needed right & in many cases with more trust in the outcome then if serviced by the professionals. Of course if something serious goes wrong with the motors then to the professional I will go, but so far in 1500 hours its only been routine service maintenance other than replacing two charge coils. When it comes to just the appearance of the boat my work on it does not have to be that precise, but where our lives are depending on critical components to not let us down, while cruising in areas where help in time or even at all may not be an option, I'm extremely finicky in doing service & repairs.

Jay
Click to expand...

Jay, do you Have the full service manual and you think it is worth what you paid for it? I have always gotten one and think it is!

Charlie
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Charlie, Yes I do & they are worth it for sure, but as all service manuals I've used, they make me wish for more detail, especially when doing something the first time. I think the service manual writers assume their users to be more mechanically knowledgable than such as me.

Jay
 
I'm all thumbs when it comes to mechanical things, so I do very little of my own maintenance. I have twin Honda 40s, and I'll never forget when I got the bill for 100-hour service on Key Largo; $850! They only had the boat out of the water for a couple hours! Since then I've learned that's within the normal range for 100-hour service. I just got annual service done at St Johns Marina in Welaka, Florida, and it cost about $550. I almost implicitly trust those folks, so I think that's a reasonable price. Once I tried repacking the wheel bearings on the trailer myself, and screwed it up by putting on the wrong packing sleeve. I had the bearings redone here in Appleton, and they charged me over $400. I've had it done at St Johns Marina and it cost me $175.
 
Jay - it is a good idea to have your own service manual. You may have a problem and have to put in at a marina that isn't to familiar with your Honda's. At least if you have the manual it could assist them in expediting your repair.

General maintainance is not a problem for most do it your selfers and while doing it - gives you a chance to become more familiar with things "under the hood". It also is a good time to inspect everything and see if anything looks out of the ordinary or getting worn. I also agree that doing it yourself(with a good procedure check list) can be very satisfying in a job well done.

A lot of problems/possible causes/solutions can be googled by the do it yourselfer - things that may not be covered in your service manual. It is a good idea when you do take your boat to a Honda dealer to have them run your serial numbers to see if there have been any recalls/service bulletins/updates that may apply .

Some mechanics and most insurance work use after market parts which are cheaper and also inferior. As a do it yourselfer you can at least insure all parts going on your engine are OEM parts.

One thing I don't recommend the average do it yourselfer attempting is the disassembly of any major/critical component. When people get in "over their heads" and end up taking their vehicle/boat to the dealer with a basket full of parts their bill is usually higher than if they had taken it there in the first place. It may also be harder for the mechanic to find the real problem in that scenario.

Over the years I have done a lot of the work myself on my older boats but I decided I would take my Volvo to the dealer for everything until my 5 year warranty is over. I was glad of this last fall - when the dealer was changing the gear oil - the drain plug threads had stripped and he could not remove it. This involved him having to replace the entire bearing carrier(under warranty). I'm not sure how that would have played out if I had been doing the work myself.

As for costs - for a winterization, all filters changed and all fluids drained and replaced with Volvo synthetic fluids - my bill is under $400.00.

Regards, Rob
 
Threads don't spontaneously strip. If this is the same dealer that had done previous maintenance, then perhaps their quality of care should be suspect.
 
bongo":18ehs6dn said:
By the way, is there negative effects of running a Yamaha or such at low RPM all day? Now-days, I like to go out on one engine at low RPM and come home on the other. Saves fuel, avoids damaging both engines on submerged objects and being closer to the end cycle of life has made me keen for a slower pace. Or maybe the other pertinent question is: How bad is it to hit a submerged log at cruising speeds? Did than once and almost lost a tooth filling and a heart valve.
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How many RPM are you running the single engine at--and what boat speed?
My recollection is that tolling speeds around Panama are fairly fasts--we were going 7 to 8 knots and caught all sorts of fish trolling. At that speed with a 23 and 60 hp, you should be working the engine adequately. I would be adding Yamaha "Ring Free" to the fuel.

Your second question I have some experience with....hitting log, rocks etc. If you have an aluminum prop it will take up some of the shock, bend up blades, but less likely to have internal bearing damage in the lower unit. The SS prop will probably not show much wear--maybe a nick,on the blade, but more likely to injure the Prop shaft, seals, and bearing. Neither is good for the lower unit. In one case, I got a 1 1/2" branch caught between counter rotating props (I/O--Bravo III drive), and it chewed up the bearings, even though the stick broke. I hit an uncharted rock with the lower unit just under the surface. It put a ding in the case, and damaged the bearings. I ended up buying a salvage lower unit and rebuilding it.

The other question, I didn't see answered is if you bring the other motor out of the water, or leave it in, and let the prop freewheel, or put it in gear so it will not free wheel. The freewheeling prop might cause damage to the seals, so it is probably better to either raise it, or put it in gear?

Which side (Pacific or Caribbean do you boat on?) We have taken our own boats thru the Canal 3x and really enjoyed that part of the world!
 
I normally run the RPMs up until I notice I'm not getting more bucks for the kick, which seems to be about 2,100... getting about 6 knots; and at that speed I have even caught Wahooo! Plus, tuna (yellow fin and albacore), dorado, permit, snapper, and an occasional plastic bag. So why run faster an burn more? Besides (and coming back to the age thing) each fish you catch means cleaning and using up precious ice; particularly if you are going out for 3 or 4 days. My fridge died soon after I bough the boat and I now use the space for stuff. By the way are those expensive and thick iceboxes really worth the price?
My log encounter did not seem to produce other damage than to my tranquility. The thud and engine noise as both came out of the water were startling... Plus the suspense until I went back to see if I still had the lower drive units. Specifically no prop damage. And speaking props, mine are showing cavitation stripes on the rear side a couple of inches below the outer edge. Don't know of forgot how to send pics here. The mechanics from the dealership had never seen this before.
I'm on the Pacific side. Have a home in Taboga island and really like the Pearl Archipelago, as you can see on my pics.
 
cbgale":qycmjur6 said:
Threads don't spontaneously strip. If this is the same dealer that had done previous maintenance, then perhaps their quality of care should be suspect.
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I have seen on more than 1 occasion where a bolt installed correctly (not stripped) will destroy threads when attempting to remove it (at a latter date). This to the point where you can not even screw it completely out. In most cases that I have seen this usually involves a metal bolt that is threaded into an aluminum part.

It was 2 different dealers, and it did seem strange to me that if in fact the dealer the previous fall had drained my gear oil and installed the plug correctly - why the threads would fail 1 year later. Anyway - no cost to me and I am quite happy with the dealer I am using now.

Regards, Rob
 
To copy the photo from your album to a thread in a Mac, you put the cursor on the photo, and hit "control". Then select "Copy photo address", copy this and then go back to the thread, click the "Img", paste the image address, and then again "Img*" I don't remember which key it is on the PC computer, but if no-one comes up--you can experiment and find it.

I was a bit confused--by the Evinrude in your photos, but suspect that you repowered recently.

I'll leave this to Matt, but at 2100 I believe that that will not cause problems. The engine should be warmed up well, and you can run it up to a good planing speed for a few minutes going home. 6 knots is hull speed, and you are not going to get more than that without lugging the engine. There are a lot of boats which troll at that speed and don't seem to have any problems.

Ice chests. There is a lot of information on the ice chests--again there was a recent thread on this. I use one similar to the Icey Trek and get about 5 to 7 days in places like Lake Powell in the fall or spring. I try and keep the cooker in the shade. I also have a Waeco freezer chest which runs off a group 31 12 volt battery.

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.ph...start=15&sid=35bedc236f4fe0eeeb27a89cce2cd5d1
 
What percent of the time are you running at the 2100RPM and 6 knots?

Cavitation bubbles are formed when the pressure is so low the water goes from the liquid phase to the vapor phase.

The damage to a propeller blade occurs when these bubbles collapse actually eroding the metal and paint on the blade. This can also happen with SS props.

Ventilation is the sucking in of air from the surface or exhaust gases from the exhaust into the propeller and the dilution of the solidity of the water around the propeller with these gases; this is probably not ventilation.

I would examine to see how much metal errosion there is. The prop looks to be in good shape, but I would wonder if a different configuration (a change in cup) might not help. This can cause prop damage in time

I wonder if there is a lot of prop slippage as you get up to the max hull speed as defined by Froude Number. If we assume that the LWL of the C dory 22 is 19 feet, the "hull speed" is 5.84 knots. As you push the boat toward or beyond this specific speed (allthough hull form may change this slightly), you are going to have more slip.

I would check the height of the motors, and perhaps trim the motor in more, plus reduce the trolling speed slightly.

What is WOT speed, and RPM--this will give us some idea of if the boat is propped correctly--also what is the pitch and diameter of the props?
 
I'd say about half the time I run at 2,100 RPM, while trolling. It's mainly when I go touring that I spend more time at 2,100 RPM. The rest of the time I'm run at optimal cruise speed, about 18 knots at 4,000 RPM or a bit more depending on water roughness. When it's rough I bring it back to 3,500 and 12 Knots or so; and usually when I'm on the home stretch I go WOT at 5,500 and 29 knots, with aluminum 136/8 x 13K props.
Prop examination does not reveal any "metal erosion". Will check with the dealer and see what (inf anything) they say. Meantime I suppose I should put some paint on the area.
I've seen or "heard" ventilation before and as you point out, this does not seem to be that. "Low pressure" would occur at high RPM, would it not?, when blade tips are going supersonic :wink Well, airplane props do... Maybe I can put a pressure meter on the water mills.
 
They are not going super sonic--although air plane props might. This is more of a pressure/heat differential. It certainly can cause metal erosion.

Your number sound good for speed, and performance. I suspect that you are getting a lot of slip at the 2100 RPM. It would be interesting to do a graph of RPM vs GPS speed. I suspect that as you get close to 5.8 knots you will have more RPM gain for each 0.1 knot gain than below--and that suggests more slip.

I am only familiar with prop dimensions in inches--so I have to assume that these are in Metric system? They look pretty flat--but that may be the light. is there good clearance between the trim tab skeg and the props? The loss of paint seems to be mostly in the area where the trim tab is located.
 
Bongo,
You might try to get in contact with the folks that own Noro Lim another 23 foot Cape Cruiser. I think they had the same problem you mention. I think he has a two motor setup similar to yours. You can check out his album and send him a private message. He uses his boat a lot and he can probably provide some insight on how to correct the problem. He actually has some recent photo activity to the left on the home page. Good Luck.
D.D.
 
Thanks Will-C, will do... And as for the questions posed by Thataway, here are the native measurements of my props: 3.75" x 13". My engines WOT is 5000-6000 and I am in the middle of it.
Will pay attention or "graph" between RPMs and GPS speed. But GPS is variable according to current, how does this fit in? I guess that if I only go in one direction without any current change the numbers will jibe. In any case I will pay more attention to no going over the power needed for optimal hull speed.
"Distance between trim tab and skeg"... Now you are creating neuron cavitation in my brain. Will have to look up what said distance should be or look like. John
 
Bongo--I suspect you mean 13 3/4" diameter and 13" pitch. on the prop. That sounds about right for the two 60's on the 23.

The skeg / trim tab I refer to is the small skeg on the aft bottom of the cavitation plate. It may only be co-incidence that the burn area is near where this as the prop rotates.

You should be able to find some stretch of water in the bay there where there is little current. My recollection was that it was minimal out in the bay, say seaward of Contradora Island, but as you came close to the canal, affected by both the tides and if there was discharge from the locks--and could be quite considerable in the lower parts of the canal, as near were the Balboa Yacht Club was. If not then you can average going two directions 180 degrees with constant RPM--that would give a valid graph.
 
Ok Thataway... this has all been fine information and nice to chat with y'all. Will see what comes up next. Right now my boat is stuck on land because the forward trailer extension rusted from the inside out. It was quite sneaky thing to do, and dangerous. Regards.
 
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