Sell, buy, wait

D

Dene

New member
We intend to buy a new or newer Ranger 25 this Fall. However, this purchase is conditioned on selling our 1982 30 foot Carver. 18 months ago, we paid $32,500 for it and through summer charter income, we were able to put thousands into it by way of repairs and upgrades. Our firm price is 35k for this turn key boat.

It's on Craigslist and so far, not a nibble, which doesn't surprise me. My questions are these. Should we wait until this Spring or even next year to get this price, enjoying it in the meantime? Will we ever get this price for a twin gasser? If we wait, is it likely that Ranger prices will rise, thus negating any profit by waiting. To those who have boated through all kinds of economic times, I humbly await your advice.

Thanks in advance.

-Greg
 
Greg,

A boat for sale is worth what you can get for it.

I would go to http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/advancedSearch.jsp
and search for your make, model and year and compare prices. I saw 9 listings from 1980 to 1983 and your asking price is in the range of those listed.

If your boat is priced right, then perhaps you are not advertising in the right place. Maybe folks wanting a $35,000 Carver don't look at Craigs list. And it is the wrong end of the boating season here in Washington.

A Yachtworld member-broker can search the listing and find out what the actual sales price was for the boats sold. That info is not available to non-brokers. Perhaps consulting with one or more brokers who sell Carvers would help.

Best of luck.
 
It's a buyer's market for powerboats in general right now, and twin gas express cruisers can be found quite a bit cheaper than a couple of years ago.

There are some really nice older boats out there for $35k, and not just Carvers. You have to look at what else customers can get for the money.

Here's a soldboats report I grabbed quickly. I notice it contains at least two models, and I haven't looked at the individual boats at all, but it gives some idea of what's been going on in the Carver 30 market.

soldcarver30s.gif


Is yours the nicest one to appear on the market in the past 20 months? Most owners answer yes, very few are correct.
 
Dene":195zu01m said:
through summer charter income, we were able to put thousands into it by way of repairs and upgrades.
Click to expand...

A word about that subject. Repairs are needed maintenance, and they maintain the boat and maintain its value when we're talking about 20+ year olds. They add nothing to value. They do make it possible to sell the boat, which beats the alternative, so in that sense they add something to the value, but they add nothing to the final price tag.

As for upgrades, if you're replacing an obsolete LORAN with a new chartplotter, that's maintenance, not an upgrade. See paragraph above. If you're replacing a nice, newer chartplotter with a really nice one that has a color screen twice the size of the previous one, THAT is an upgrade. It adds about ten cents on the dollar to the selling price, and again makes the boat easier to sell.

The quickest way to destroy the value of a new thing is to install it in an old boat. You have to enjoy your money back out of it, because that's the only way you'll get it back out.

I think this guy's budget is both realistic and instructive. Buy a boat for about 12k. Put 50k into it over ten years. Sell it for 14k. The winner is the next owner, and that's just how things work in the boat market.
 
The second of the boats Tom listed was a 30 foot aft cabin Carvier DIESEL, which had just been completely redone and was in top shape (It was a boat I had owned in the past). So the diesel, the being re-done, and the area all have to be taken into consideration.

In this market, with gas boats selling slowly--you really have to lower the price significantly to sell it--and this is a bad time of year to sell.

I don't think that the market will get much better by next spring, or even next summer. Yes, I suspect that the new price of C Dories will go up slowly--don't know about used, but suspect that they will stay about the same.

Since I have owned one of these boats I know that they are great boats for the money --two staterooms, stall shower, nice salon and galley etc--but do lack outside sitting area and use a considerable amount of fuel at anything over a displacement speed. My personal opinion is that your price is way high--even though your boat is in excellent condition. Not your boat that is the problem, it is the market! If you want to sell it, you will have to really drop the price, and you still may not sell it. So these decisions remain a very personal choice.

Good luck on selling!
 
A bit off topic but the same criteria applies to used general aviation aircraft.
Try to sell a plane you've upgraded with new avionics or a recently replaced engine and you're lucky to get back fifty cents on the dollar. This works for you as a buyer. You'll get a hugh discount on the avionics recently installed by an aircraft seller. :shock:
 
Good points all. It's likely we'll be keeping it for a while and that's fine with me. As Bob has pointed out, there are few, if any, roomier 30 footers. It's a wonderful boat for the Sound or even liveaboard purposes.

Tom. As one who has bought 6 boats so far with the youngest being a '98, it's important that all systems have been thoroughly reviewed. Better the seller pays for the repair than me as the future buyer. That's what one is getting with this boat. The only thing that hasn't been repaired or replaced are the engines and tranny. Both are in excellent condition. Personally, I prefer to pay extra for this assurance.

Perhaps somebody else will too.

We revisited an '08 Ranger in Oregon City and became more convinced it's the boat for our retirement years, which include the Great Loop. The question is when do we start buying it. The answer will be an interesting part of our journey.

-Greg
 
Hi Greg,

I do not mean to disparage your efforts. I am just offering observations of behavior I have seen in the market. I doubt the market will support your price, but you don't need the whole market. You need one person. Maybe you'll find that person. Good luck!
 
Re: Selling

This is a story from a friend of mine who is a realtor. The owner of one of his listings who needed to sell was asking what he would need to do to get an offer on his home. My friend told him, "It's a slow year...in your area only three houses will sell in the next three months. If you need to sell yours now it is imperative that you ensure that yours is one of those three." Translation: price aggressively or accept the possibility that nothing will happen.
If you're happy with your present boat wait it out.....because the people who are under pressure will always undercut you.
 
I sold my last boat toward the end of last summer. Timing is definitely important, few want to buy a boat if they cannot enjoy it right away or somewhat quickly.

I researched online to see what my boat was going for, and chose a mid-point price range. I had exactly one nibble and thankfully the guy bought the boat. I had advertised on Ebay, Craigslist, and one other site where you have to pay to list. My lead came through Craigslist. In my case the guy was able to connect his truck to the trailer and take his kids fishing the following day.

Good luck with the sale though. I know it's tough finding leads and it is a buyers market.
 
Tom,

I didn't take offense re. your opinion at all. I appreciate your viewpoint. It's likely I need to drop my price if I decide to sell.

I spoke to the Ranger salesperson at Sportscraft (Oregon City). Their '08 Ranger 25 with the 150 Cummins is discounted to $137k, sans a trailer. He cited a 10k rebate from the factory and dealer. I'm willing to finance 100k, so the difference is 137k minus the sale of my Carver. If it sold for 29k, then there's an 8k difference.

While I ponder this, I wonder if this '08 Ranger could be acquired for 129k.

-Greg
 
We sold our 32' Sundowner Tug last week -- took us 5 weeks to get it done and we had 3 different individuals put in offers. Timing is important but so is quality of the boat and how many other boats just like yours is on the market. There are only 11 32' Sundowner Tugs built -- so the buyers didn't have other options.

Have a nice day,

Robert Meyer
2008 CD22 (on order) "BRAZO"
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
Oh, I forgot one thing -- we did NOT use a Broker -- just a listing on e-bay. The boat sold for just under $100,000.

I had many many calls and e-mails on the boat -- non-stop. Ebay is the way to go.
 
hi dene,
i'm always happy for someone purchasing their dream boat, but what i've found in many situations, shortly after the purchase, financial reality sets in. i've ran some figures just to see how this might look. boat loans, with good to very good credit scores are in the 6% area. if one financed 100k for 10 years, p&i would be 1110.21 x's 120 = 133,225 + 29,000 dp = 162225 less any tax deductions available.
for 15 years, p&i is 843.86 x's 180= 151,894. + 29,000 dp = 180,894.
and 20 years, p&i is 716.43 x's 240= 171,943 + 29,000 dp = 200,943.
life is short and when you've work hard for many years you deserve to have what brings you happiness. it does however come with a significant price tag.
good luck with your decision.
pat
ps: i have friends who recently purchased their dream motorhome. and it is! 44' long, 475k, paid in full. and their ages, 84 him and 81 her.
good for them!
 
capt. patrick campbell":ko7pq8ib said:
hi dene,
i'm always happy for someone purchasing their dream boat, but what i've found in many situations, shortly after the purchase, financial reality sets in. i've ran some figures just to see how this might look. boat loans, with good to very good credit scores are in the 6% area. if one financed 100k for 10 years, p&i would be 1110.21 x's 120 = 133,225 + 29,000 dp = 162225 less any tax deductions available.
for 15 years, p&i is 843.86 x's 180= 151,894. + 29,000 dp = 180,894.
and 20 years, p&i is 716.43 x's 240= 171,943 + 29,000 dp = 200,943.
life is short and when you've work hard for many years you deserve to have what brings you happiness. it does however come with a significant price tag.
good luck with your decision.
pat
ps: i have friends who recently purchased their dream motorhome. and it is! 44' long, 475k, paid in full. and their ages, 84 him and 81 her.
good for them!
Click to expand...

There is a factor that I didn't mention in regards to the purchase of this dream boat. Other people will be helping us pay for it. We intend to charter it through ABC Yacht Charters. They are a terrific company who charters our Carver. This summer, it chartered 5 weeks netting us $7500, which went into the boat (new inverter, bottom paint, transmission maintenance, tuneup, moorage, and insurance). They predict a Ranger Tug would charter 12 weeks. (They have a CD 22 that has a similar track record). That income would go a long ways toward paying it off within 5 years.

Chartering works well with our lifestyle too. We use our 22 footer alot during the summer months on the Columbia River (below our home), for cruising and Coast Guard Aux. purposes. We winter boat with the Carver, mooring it at Brownsville (near Bremerton), just two hours away from our home. During the summer, it's at Friday Harbor, which is a journey.

If charter income wasn't a factor, then we would buy a creme puff, used Ranger 5-6 years from now.
 
I don't know how many years you have chartered. But I have owned an ex charter boat, and have several friends who owned ex charter boats. Despite a good company they get heavy use. I completely rebuilt my boat (as have several of my friends)--after XX years of charter, most systems, engines, etc are worn out.

So far your experience is great chartering. But with a new boat, will those dock rashes, the gel coat repairs which don't quite match after a year, the occasional grounding and bending of the shaft or a hole in the bottom, which takes the boat out of charter for a season (you always have to consider the worse potential problems). If you can detatch your emotions from the boat--then great. I have chartered my boats a couple of times, and had a RV which was a full time rental. In the long run, I didn't really earn that much and it was not worth it for me. Each of us has a difference tolerance. But at the end of 5 years you will have a boat which has been run hard for at 12 weeks a year, plus what you do to it. If it needs a new engine--was the chartering worth it?

Good luck either way..A very personal decision.

Bob
 
thataway":rzj0j3h8 said:
I don't know how many years you have chartered. But I have owned an ex charter boat, and have several friends who owned ex charter boats. Despite a good company they get heavy use. I completely rebuilt my boat (as have several of my friends)--after XX years of charter, most systems, engines, etc are worn out.

So far your experience is great chartering. But with a new boat, will those dock rashes, the gel coat repairs which don't quite match after a year, the occasional grounding and bending of the shaft or a hole in the bottom, which takes the boat out of charter for a season (you always have to consider the worse potential problems). If you can detatch your emotions from the boat--then great. I have chartered my boats a couple of times, and had a RV which was a full time rental. In the long run, I didn't really earn that much and it was not worth it for me. Each of us has a difference tolerance. But at the end of 5 years you will have a boat which has been run hard for at 12 weeks a year, plus what you do to it. If it needs a new engine--was the chartering worth it?

Good luck either way..A very personal decision.

Bob
Click to expand...

I'm ultimately liable for normal wear and tear. However, a bent prop or shaft is the responsibility of the charterer. The last charterer on my Carver hit a log at the entrance of Friday Harbor. He paid for the prop replacement.

I question how much abuse a mom and pop charterer can render to a diesel trawler. However, there are GPS safeguards that can be implemented to insure they don't go WOT. Even so, I'd rather have it used vs. sitting in a moorage, unused.

Some of the responsibility lies with the charter company is choosing to whom they will charter a boat. ABC is quite selective. If they are novices, then a boatmanship class is required prior to the charter.

Also, the tax benefits to chartering are huge. No sales tax, which saves 10k. Also, expenses are deductible.

But you are right....it is a personal decision and it requires us to remain detached. So far...so good.

Was your experience with charter boats in Florida?

-Greg
 
dr. bob makes an excellent point. chartering a used carver, no big deal, chartering my dream boat, and i think the 25' ranger qualities as a dream boat, well that's another question!
i've had numerous people ask to rent the lake home linda and i own. no way. we would end up with cigarette burns on the tables and carpet, beer, whiskey, wine stains all over the place. it may work for some but not my cup of tea.
now, having said that, if i was interested in buying a boat for chartering service, i'd probably be looking at a 30' something and only stock it with the bare essentials. no carpet, little teak if at any, and a huge deposit!
from reading the post on the ranger 25' i have concluded, this might not be a boat that would hold up to the charter trade. i'm probably wrong, and if i am, it certainly isn't the first time.
at any rate, interesting topic.
in the end you need to do what is in your best interest!
keep us informed as to your final decision. what ever it is we will all wish you the best of luck. in fact, maybe a couple of us might work together and charter your boat. anybody interested can count me in.
pat
 
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