Replacing Balsa Core - Few Questions

The photos sure help in many ways. That was severe core disruption you found by the screw holes. Had the boat been through a number of freeze thaw cycles? Especially if the boat was left out in freeing areas. Was the boat run hard? I realize that you cannot answer these questions, and if you cannot find out, then are rhetorical.

How wide is this gap between the new balsa and the remaining core at the very edges--or is there remaining core outside of the new core? You can fill these areas with a light filler and epoxy mixture. For example microballoons come to mind. I have seen failure in micro balloons on outside fairing after many years--I don't think that would be an issue here, and my recollection is that the microballoons were with a polyester resin in all cases--I might be conflicted here by the choice of polyester for the filler combined with microballoons and cabosil...because of the much higher cost of the epoxy. I would mix some cabosil in with the microballoons.. Both of these are appropriate repairs. I would limit this balsa unfilled area to less than 1/2" in width if possible.

An aside: often when putting structural bulkheads onto a boat, foam is cut in a trapezoid shape to stand the bulkhead off the hull for about 3/8" to 1/2" so the bulkhead is not a hard place in the hull, and could cause fiberglass fatigue. We then would build the filet and put in 3-4 layers of tabbing of cloth/mat to secure the bulkhead on both sides. You might consider the floor, in being somewhat similar to a bulkhead, and bring the top layers of glass concentrically up the side of the hull (in our Caracal, we will be leaving 2 to 3" of the old "floor" along the sides, and then sweep the new top layer over this and up the sides of the hull.) For building bulkheads we would first use a "tic board" to find the rough contours, then make a cardboard template, double check its fit before cutting the marine ply we were using as the bulkhead. One could use a laminate panel as a major bulkhead, as I believe Tom Hurby noted that his new C Dory 22 is being built with a hollow core material in at least part of the construction.

Does anyone know what the original laminate schedule of the C Dory 16 floor (inner aspect of the hull) was? Today I would probably go with a of layer of 1708 and 1808 each. That would be a very strong floor-perhaps stronger than the initial laminate. This series of laminates use bi-axial fibers: 1708 bundles of fibers are at 45 degrees. The 1808 fibers are at 90 degrees. The 1708 goes around corners more easily. But there is difference in panel strength between the two.

In the past the builders might use a layer of roving (18 to 24 oz) in the inner aspect of the floor (hull bottom), The outer laminate should have at least one layer of 18 to 24 oz roving when first built. Today with the biaxial and tri axial cloths there may be a different laminate schedule and a good chance the boat would be lighter as well as stronger.
 
Just checking back here, how's the progress going?

In regards your question about locating fixed fuel tanks: There really only seem to be three options. One option is clearly not great, the other two would seem to each have their advantages.

The first option is bow placement. Moeller's 19 Gallon Bow Tank looks just a bit too tall to fit under the existing v-berth sole in my 16, but I think it would work fine if I tabbed in a new sole a few inches higher.

Option 2 is stern/splashwell placement - they changed the layout of the stern on the 16 between the Classic (mine) and the current design (yours), but either would accommodate either one or two (split) stern tanks lengthwise at the transom. Obviously, in the modern design it's a bit of a like-for-like swap, since you can already place portable tanks there, but I think you'd get ~50% more capacity and of course easier fueling.

The third option would be a pair of vertical tanks along each gunnel amidship. I think this would be the most complicated option, in terms of fiberglass work, and would buy you the least additional capacity.

The major question I see is weight distribution: at 6 lb/gal you're looking at adding 120 lb quite far forward, vs. at the stern.

I flatly don't know which would be better. The 16 Cruisers like some additional weight up front, but the Anglers* are fairly balanced, and even suffer in some cases from 'chine riding' - the tendency to dig and hold chine at speed if over-trimmed, which is scary and dangerous.

Since it's the result of too much bow-down trim, chine-digging is easily avoided by simply easing up (trimming a bit more bow-up).

It doesn't seem like rocket science that adding 100+ pounds at the bow could in certain conditions exacerbate that tendency, and make it harder to correct.

Allllll if that being said..... Marco has actually done this mod, and I've always been curious to get his take on it. And of course, if you've hung a 60lb kicker off the transom like I have, then it probably cancels out.
 
As mentioned, weight in the bow of C-Dorys can help the ride in some situations. The problem becomes that if the situation changes and you need to get the bow up, you may have a hard time getting rid of the weight in the bow if it is something like water, fuel, or chain rode.

Trim tabs can get the bow down, but can't really get lift it up. They just counteract the bow up tendency of the boat.
 
As mentioned, weight in the bow of C-Dorys can help the ride in some situations. The problem becomes that if the situation changes and you need to get the bow up, you may have a hard time getting rid of the weight in the bow if it is something like water, fuel, or chain rode.

Trim tabs can get the bow down, but can't really get lift it up. They just counteract the bow up tendency of the boat.
 
As mentioned, weight in the bow of C-Dorys can help the ride in some situations. The problem becomes that if the situation changes and you need to get the bow up, you may have a hard time getting rid of the weight in the bow if it is something like water, fuel, or chain rode.

Trim tabs can get the bow down, but can't really get lift it up. They just counteract the bow up tendency of the boat.
 
Also, like you are thinking I moved my battery.

I went back and forth between having it in front of the helm or in the footwell between the front seats. I had been planning on the former, but when I tried the latter just to see, it actually was not nearly as annoying as it would sound, and it's a good foot Lower and obviously dead on the kielson, so a better placement from a weight/roll perspective.
 
ssobol":26rod6gr said:
As mentioned, weight in the bow of C-Dorys can help the ride in some situations. The problem becomes that if the situation changes and you need to get the bow up, you may have a hard time getting rid of the weight in the bow if it is something like water, fuel, or chain rode.

Trim tabs can get the bow down, but can't really get lift it up. They just counteract the bow up tendency of the boat.

I have found that engine trim-up can apply significant bow -up force (by driving the stern down), however I'm sure there's a fuel efficiency trade off, and of course there's a limit to it.

My experience is that, all things equal, weight in the bow helps me get on a plane faster/keep it at a slower speed, but also increases the tendency to dig and carve.

This is convincing me that The stern is probably the better place, by a hair.
 
To answer the question from Thataway - I expect that my C-dory will be finished sometime by the end of the month. After that I will need to spend some time altering the cabin to add a second berth under the helm seat. NMI is building the starboard side of the cabin with the platform running the entire length of the cabin. I hope to be on the water by June. We have not yet figured out how to place all the different equipment needed for electric propulsion. I plan to spend a few days in Bellingham mounting the motors, batteries, etc. there to work with the C-dory folks in case they are interested in further marketing of the electric version.
 
Thank. you Tom. I apologize, I know that you gave the amp hours and voltage of the LiFePO4 batteries-could you include that again when you put the performance numbers up.

A number of us are very interested in what your numbers will be. Also if you would not mind sharing, the cost for the electric motors and batteries, vs the cost of a single 150 hp Outboard--which would probably in the 8 K to 12K plus cost of binnacle, display, and associated rigging costs of from 2k to 3.5k...(I checked and Suzuki 115 is about the same range.)

As to the bow weight. I tend to keep the bow as light as possible. It is fairly easy to drive the bow down with tabs and a Permatrim. There are times I might run in following seas which the average C Dory owner might not try. (Disclosure, I have not owned a 16 of any vintage, so I am generalizing all C Dorys in the same "basket". My wife would not give her blessing of the 16 as our last C Dory; the ride in the Caracal Cat is so much better than any of the C Dory monohulls, and equal to the Tom Cat, maybe slightly better because of the higher tunnel clearance, with almost an identical hull profile and a length to beam ratio which is better (8+', with 18 LOA. and 8 1/2 with 27' LOA.). Ideal Beam to length should be more than 1:3.

The more weight in the ends of any boat, there will be more of a chance of handling issues, and less efficient ride. The reason when adding extra batteries, I put them in the cabin (not FLA batteries.) and try to avoid the aft most areas.
 
Hey all,

Sorry for the long delay. I had a couple other things pop up, but have started epoxying down the balsa. I haven't been able to dedicate a chunk of time to it so I have kind of been sneaking off to glue down a couple pieces now and then. Slow going but it is getting done.

I will say, I really wish I had been able to find 1 1/2" balsa! It's hard not to look at the single layer of 3/4" and day dream about how I could just be done right now, not to mention the small fortune I am spending on epoxy! I keep telling myself that properly glued with staggered joints the two layers will be stronger but, I'm not an engineer, so that might not even be right. That said, if I'm wrong please don't correct me..I need the motivation!

I'll try to get some updated photos up soon. Thanks again for all the advice, it has been super helpful.
 
Hey all,

I pretty much have all the balsa in now. It's been sloooow going between work, kids, some house projects and the occasional running out of epoxy. It's looking good and feeling pretty dang solid (I added a few more photos). Thanks again for all the help!

Initially, I was using a bunch of heavy things to weigh down the second layer. But started using screws and filling the holes with epoxy after. Probably pretty obvious but was far superior.

All that said, I am moving on to fiberglass here soon and would love thoughts on what I should order/use. Two layers of 1708? Something else? I have no experience with fiberglass and am covering a pretty large area, so something pretty simple and durable would be my goal. I might start another thread specifically about this...
 
Hi - just interested in if you have decided on the fiberglass yet? 1708 would be my choice as I understand what it is and have used before, but I'm no boat builder! I slightly suspect that if you are using that and epoxy, you are going to have a higher quality build than out of the factory no matter what you do.

Only thought I would have to add is, if you haven't considered it, I would think about vacuum bagging, I think it would give the fiberglass an incredibly good connection to the balsa. and would make for a really strong boat, not to mention a nice finish to paint later.
 
Pburk":171a6lg5 said:
Two layers of 1708? Something else?
I am also replacing balsa in my cabin floor (some photos in my album) due to finding wet core remaining from a poor repair a previous owner had done to a leak in the hull. I hired Andy of Boatworks Today to advise me and he recommended two layers of 3/4" balsa w/staggered joints, covered with two layers of 1708, all sealed up with West System epoxy. Yes it's expensive and yes I think it will be as good or better than the original construction.

Re. the 40% reading in your balsa that visually looks OK - I ended up pulling up the entire top skin of my cabin floor, even though the balsa looked good and didn't feel wet, because the part that was undamaged was reading 30 to 40% moisture. After one day of being open to the air it read 0%.
 
part that was undamaged was reading 30 to 40% moisture. After one day of being open to the air it read 0%.

That means that any moisture was just on the very surface. Was there delamination of the upper glass layer?
 
thataway":12mlnrlk said:
part that was undamaged was reading 30 to 40% moisture. After one day of being open to the air it read 0%.

That means that any moisture was just on the very surface. Was there delamination of the upper glass layer?
No, it was firmly attached. There was no evidence of moisture in this area except for the reading from two different moisture meters.
 
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