Questions re hot surge brakes

J

jhwilson

New member
My Magic Tilt trailer has dual axle surge disc brakes. We live and keep our 22 CD Cruiser at 5,000 feet elevation.

So, in order to get to any cruising water it involves a fairly significant decent. In my first few tows downhill I followed the advice of experienced C-Brats and began the decent very slowly in low gear and checked the hub temps. I was very pleased that things were going well.

Last week, however, after a day of cruising on a local lake I noticed the hubs were extremely hot when I parked the trailer in the driveway. Since all four hubs were hot I attributed it to the brakes not the bearings.

This information may be helpful. Prior to being able to back into my drive it is necessary for me to take the boat uphill past my house about 1/8th mile and turn around. I come back down the 1/8th mile in low gear (this is a very steep section) and back into the drive.

There are a couple of things different about this outing compared to ones previously. (1) We went to a different lake in TN and there was about a half mile steep downhill right before the launch ramp. The brakes might have been hot when I launched, I didn't check for some reason. (2) Right before getting home there is a three mile stretch of downhill. On all prior occasions it has been all uphill except for the 1/8th mile mentioned above.

My questions now are: (1) what I need to do to be sure the brakes and the bearings are okay and (2) what can I do to prevent this heating in the future?

I searched this site without finding a comparable problem. I'm wondering is there is someway to deactivate the surge brakes on these very steep decents where I am going very slow with a full size truck in low gear.

I'm also wondering about the bearing grease. The Magic Tilt manual only says to use marine grease. The hubs have Bearing Buddy or something similiar and the grease is green. My marine grease on hand is red, does that mean anything? I have heard it is not good to mix the grease.

We are hoping to go on a multiday outing later in the week so I'm trying to resolve this promptly. If I have left out anything important please let me know. Many thanks in advance for any help.

Harper
 
You might want to look into elec/over hydraulics This actually works very similar to your brakes on a car when you hit the brake pedel it start braking It's about a $500 option from a trl dealer . Make sure your 5th (blue) wire is attached to your backup lights and your solenoid that stops your brakes from working while backing up is actually working . Good Luck let us know how it works . I have not added to mine as of yet becuse living in fl. I don't need it so far.
 
Jim,

Thanks much. I think that the ultimate solution is indeed Electric over Hydraulic. I have electric brakes on my travel trailer which is parked in the same place and driven over the same roads and there are no problems at all. I was hoping to fully test the surge brakes prior to determining if the modification was absolutely necessary.

Also, there is no problem backing, the disconnect is working fine.

Thanks again,
Harper
 
Harper,

I believe the brake heating is caused by keeping the tow rig in a lower gear on the descent, rather than using (pumping) the brakes. Because of the lower gear, the surge mechanism is alway putting hydraulic pressure to the trailer brakes.

We have an EZ Loader with surge brakes, and they strongly recommend that descent speed by controlled by pumping the brakes rather than using lower gears. I do take the transmission out of overdrive, but keep it in the highest gear.

Hope this helps...

Steve
 
Its not unusual for disk surge brakes to get hot on long down hill runs.

I have never had a failure of the system even though they may get hot.

The way I have used to reduced the heat is to run a little slower going down hill and be very smooth in the application of the brakes, once you set the system by firmly applying the brakes, they seem to stay in that position and you have the brakes set regardless if you need them or not. Then you have to speed up to unset them.

We used the electric over hydraulic when they first came out for a year and I was not satisfied with the performance. Since then things might have improved.

Check with the manufacturer of the electric hydraulic control, you may need a specific brake controller. Also check for the time it takes for the system to set the brakes and the pressure the unit will put out. Then check to see what your brakes need.

Good luck!
 
One thing I'd recommend - Check the hub temp before launching - and never submerge a hot hub (or brake for that matter). The cold water will make the hot hub draw in water which will lead to failure of the bearings.
 
With almost all disc brakes, it is recommended that you use high temperature rated marine grease as they typically run hotter than drums. I know some who swear by the new oil bath hubs.

A bit before the ramp, you might be able to lock out the brakes at the actuator (if you have a HD truck, travel slow and feel comfortable doing so). Probably better to just get an infrared thermo, park in the shade and check it prior to dunking.

If it's a roller trailer you might not need to dunk the hubs to launch!

Chris
 
I think I would switch over to the electric/hydraulic option myself.

As for the grease, I would definitely switch over the grease. I would opt for a Synthetic Marine rated grease such as Amsoil or Mobile 1 makes. Synthetics typically handle higher heat better than a non synthetic.

I would also change out the brake fluid with a good Dot 4 fluid. Brake fluid will break down in high heat just like oil and grease. I would have suggested Dot 5 but since it doesn't play well with Dot 3/4 I can't recommend it.
 
Thanks all for the feedback.

After closer examination it appears that what caused the problem was that the hubs were fairly warm when I splashed the boat and I had insufficient grease in the hubs (Buddy Bearings) which allowed water to be pulled in.

Earlier this week I pumped in some grease and took the boat and trailer to my boat/trailer mechanic. He just called to say that the bearings and brakes were fine and the bearings have been repacked. When going down the mountain to get to the mechanic the hubs heated to their normal down-hill temp (200 degrees) and leveled off to their normal flat land temp (110 degrees) so I felt pretty good that they were okay.

Guess I need to watch the Buddy Bearing grease level and let the hubs cool sufficiently after a long down hill tow prior to launching.

Harper
 
Harper:

I believe that there is a way to keep a surge hitch from surging. I recall reading about this both in a magazine article and possibly somewhere on this site (?).

The solution is a mechanical "fix" which prevents the surge hitch from moving forward and engaging the brakes.

Wayne
 
Harper:

I just did a search on-line using "surge brakes disengage" and found several good discussions and suggestions.

Essentially, one has to prevent the trailer tongue (a more accurate word than "hitch"!) from sliding foward.

Apparently, some surge brakes come with a "key" to put into a ready-made hole. Several contributors suggested drilling a hole into the tongue and installing a (removable) bolt One reported that he had used a U-bolt.

All of these methods share a common goal: to prevent the trailer tongue from sliding forward and engaging the brakes.

Wayne
 
I have mentioned this problems several times and there have been anumber of threads on it. I had the front brakes hang up this summer and got high temps. In my opinion 200 degrees is too hot on the bearings. The C Dory 25 is light enough that you can actually descent with out using the trailer brakes. I have locked out the brakes one of several ways. One is a switch which activates the lock out selenoid. Put a diode in the wire to the reverse switch so that no feed back to that circuit. 2. Put a bolt or pin in a hole right in back of the coupler, so it cannot move back or forth. Some trailers have a hole already drilled for that. 3. Use either a C clamp or Chain Vise grips to stop the coupler from surging back. Of the 3, the switch is the best. Put a red light on the dash to you know it is accentuated.

Agree that electric over hyraulic is the best solution, but a C Dory 22 is so light, that it should not need this. not sure if you could put a spring to increase the resistance when going down hills, but that is a possibility. Currently Electric over hyraulic are excellent systems.
 
I'd like to point out that surge brakes work by using the weight/inertia of the trailer to push against the master cylinder actuator and thus apply the brakes. As other people have mentioned when going downhill, the weight of the trailer can apply the brakes without the tow vehicle brakes being actuated. This is especially true when backing uphill.

When one is backing uphill, locking out the trailer brakes by pin or switch is acceptable, but going down a steep hill I’d want all the brakes I got. There’s got to be a way one can tow a surge brake trailer down a long hill without locking out the trailer brakes. I don’t have the answer since the trailer doesn’t have surge brakes, but someone should.

By the way the electric brakes on a travel trailer are different from electric/hydraulic brakes for a boat trailer. The former are electromagnets which drag on the drum to apply the brakes, and cannot be submerged in water (OK, they can but then they’re useless.) The latter consists of a hydraulic pump which turns on to apply the brakes hydraulically. Nothing electric goes underwater.

The brakes on the EZ Loader trailer are Kodiak. Just before we left on this summer’s trip, I noticed that the pads on one wheel were gone. Since this is their 5th year being launched in salt water, I thought that I’d have to replace everything. Actually, all I needed were new pads. Nearly killed myself removing the lug nuts, however. When we get home, I’m going to change the oil in the hubs. Those hubs have been flawless (after the factory replace the original set of bearings, at their instigation.)

Boris
 
As has been mentioned, going downhill, you may NEED all the brakes you can get, so I wouldn't do anything to disable the surge for downhill. When backing, our trailer (before converting to electric over hydraulic) would frequently NOT lock out, even though we had the 5 pin connector. A chuck of 2x4 worked fine to hold that open. Note, that we ONLY used that to back up, not for any downhill running.

Steep declines are the weak point of surge brakes, in my opinion. The only way we found around that was to start the downhill portion VERY slowly... if we needed to be going 20 mph so the brakes didn't activate, then that's where we drove... with the flashers on. If we could feel the brakes come on, I'd slow down, then accelerate just enough to open that surge connection up. I don't know any other way, short of disabling the surge, which I feel is a bad option.

Regarding the grease: trailers that will go in the water often use lithium grease (the green) vs the red. We only use the lithium bearing grease in ours. (I'm not sure that the types of grease are compatible, so if you make the change, you'd want to be sure to repack bearings). If we get to the ramp and the hubs are warm, we cool our jets before launching. Heat thins out the grease and allows water to be sucked in. Have a soda and watch some ramp antics for a few minutes, then undo straps and get ready to launch.

Whether electric over hydraulic is overkill for a 22 depends on your tow vehicle, the terrain you normally tow over, and your comfort level. We tow Wild Blue around a LOT, and it has made a real difference for us.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
The issue of going downhill and locking out the surge brakes solution is right at hand with Bob's (Thataway's) set up!

Just run a hot wire from your battery circuit through a switch to the back up/brake solenoid/hydraulic valve circuit on the vehicle side of the trailer plug.

Put a switch in this circuit on your tow vehicle dash, and a red indicator light wired to ground so that it comes on when the switch is thrown "ON".

Add a diode in the back up light circuit supply wire in the vehicle side of the trailer plug to prevent power from lighting up the back up lights.

Throw the switch to lock out the brakes going downhill.

If you need the trailer brakes, flip the switch off.

You could even modify the set-up to automatically turn off the lock out switch's power with a relay activated by the brake circuit, since the brake switch is usually close at hand under the dash or on the firewall.

Could all be made into a kit and sold, pending some investigation of liability issues.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I don't subscribe to the needing all of the brakes you can going down hill. Yes, you MAY need brakes, and that is the reason I suggested the lock out of the selenoid. I would rather lock out the brakes, than burn up the brakes and burn out the hubs...if I had my choice.

Again, I very rarely use brakes going down hill, even on grades like the Grapevine. I have taken large boats down these grades without duing the trailer brakes. This is by going slow at the top, applying brakes in short bursts to keep the speed at a managable level, and never exceeding a basic speed. For example 50 miles an hour. There is a reason that some grades have speed limits of 35 MPH going down the grade for big trucks. Engine compression can keep most trucks and SUV's slowed down (even diesels). The switch technique, allows you to have brakes when you need them, and if you don't, then you won't heat up the surge brakes.
 
Ah yes, the Grapevine. They have a truck only lane, with escape ramps. Going down that lane is an experience. The traffic in the next lane over is going 70 since cars can use it. And then when you're going at 35, you come up on a truck doing 25. So you either slow down, using your brakes as lightly as possible, cause it's a long way down that hill, or you move into the next lane over and pray you don't get rear-ended.

I did bring Journey On down US 40 into Steamboat Springs without trailer brakes. Blown fuse cause of electrical problems, since fixed. I was the slowest one down, until I met a slower RV. Smoked the truck brakes, but they did the job. I have a lot more respect for Ford disk brakes now.

I would vote for all the brakes I can get all the time.

Also, remember to throw the lock out switch OFF, just BEFORE that emergency.

Boris
 
All of your posts are appreciated and make good sense. I think I am going to apply Dr. Bob's philosophy when routinely towing downhill from my home at 5,000 feet elevation. There are two routes down, one on the NC side and the other on the Tenn. side. The route down the Tenn. side is about 7 miles of downhill switchbacks with practically no level relief. The trip down the NC side is 10 miles but it has intermittent level and less winding areas.

In the steep slope, winding areas on both sides it is not an option to not gear down, towing or not. When towing the boat I have attempted to do what has been suggested here. That is begin the decent slowly (20 mph) in first or second (auto tranny) and brake only when necessary. Even then the degree of slope on the Tenn. side apparently causes the surge brakes to be applied for most of the decent thus the 200 degree hub temp.

I believe I can lock out the brakes for the seven miles at 20 mph and still have sufficient braking power from my Tundra. I'm going to first try the C-clamp and if it feels okay go with the lockout switch which I agree is a better solution.

Thanks again for all of the input and please add anything else that comes to mind. I'll let you know how the "experiment" goes later this week.

Harper
 
Ford Disc brakes--I have them on my Excursion and RV--and I have over 50,000 miles on the RV, and still have good rotors and pads (didn't have that same luck on the GM chassis). The Excursion brakes are not quite as massive, but still are very substantial. I don't know when they were replaced, but were like new 20,000 miles ago when I got the vehicle, and still have plenty of pad left.

I have yet to over heat the brakes on these vehicles, but I did spent a lot of time driving some large trucks in the mountains (steeper grades than interstates) many years ago and learned to keep the speeds down. It frightens me when I see large trucks riding their brakes--and the burning brake pad smell is present! I think the US freeway system has a limit of 6% grades. Canada seems to have more 8 % grades than we do--but that may just be my perception.

I see the trailer brakes as being essential for an emergency stop. That is why the lock out electrical only on a temporary basis seems like the best idea--only when you have long descents and the trailer brakes would heat up--not for normal driving.

I have been very pleasantly surprised as to how courtious other drivers have been to towing the C Dory 25 (and Tom Cat). I do have the extra light bar on the transom, with LED lights--and it probably is more noticable than the low trailer turn and brake lights.
 
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