question about boat surfing and swells

J

Jake B

New member
was just at work and thought I would ask other brats out there about open ocean running. this is the first year we have taken out c dory out in the big blue. while we have taken other (more deep v) boats out in the past I was wondering if anyone had tips on slowing the "surfing" we seem to experience a bit on our boat.

Over the last year we have used our dory a lot in the straights here. and have just gotten used to the surfing that takes place when the stern gets hit by a rear 1/4ing wave. we have learned to just kick off the throttle and let it "surf" then back to business as usual. We thought that trim tabs would eliminate this for us so we installed some tabs and while they did help a great deal there are many times I find I don’t use them. One example is I have found in following seas its best to just keep them up and slow down. this results in us getting “pushed" around a bit. and on those rear 1/4ing waves I have found that they will “grab" the tab and push the rear around while under way. all this was and is fine while playing in the straights.

but this last two times out in the pacific ocean the forecast as they often are in the spring were wrong and both times we found those 2-3' swells@13 sec. with no wind wave, More around the 4-5' swell and 2' wind wave on top. more important the wind waves stacked causing the spacing to be very close. a few times coming down a wave I would kill power and still pound through 2-3 more wind waves just due to momentum. on the way back in (only 8 miles out) it was a confused sea due to tide wind and swell. so trim tabs were a no go, when I did try them I would feel them "grab" and either push me or try and move the rear around. and while I felt comfortable in the situation and seas. the only thing I did not like or was uneasy about was the fear of the boat "surfing" and turning me sideways at a less than ideal time. while it did happen a few times it was never at the wrong moment.

so my question is there anything that can be done to stop the surfing I am experiencing? or is that just the nature of these boats? and are others experiencing this?

and on a side more fun note. besides experience skill ect. what does one think is the top end of ocean swells/waves these 22's could take? I have heard they will handle more than the crew many times and we have been in 7-8' combined before and have yet to really feel uncomfortable....
 
My experience has been that a 22 does surf some. Sometimes it chine walks. I had been warned to have trim tabs up in following seas to reduce the likelihood of broaching. My solution has been to slow down, tack as necessary and play the throttle carefully. It just comes with the boat.
 
I fish out of Westport a lot. Depending on the conditions (swell height, speed, etc), I'll surf down the front of a swell on my way in. I run with my tabs all the way up, and I trim the motor up so I'm running relatively bow high; that prevents the bow steering at the bottom.

If it gets really snotty, I just slow down and let the swells flow beneath me. As long as I'm traveling slower than, and perpendicular to the swells, I won't end up on the face in a surfing situation.

I think once you get a feel for your boat, you can tell what it's doing in any given sea. And I mean literally "feel" it. I can feel how it's moving compared to the swell and where I'm at on the face or backside. Unless the seas are really nice (no wind wave/chop, etc.), I usually keep my speed so I stay just on the backside of the the swell crest. But if it's gorgeous and smooth, I'll ride the face for a bit. It's a pretty cool feeling...
 
I agree with C Dawg. Trim tabs all of the way up, outboard trimmed up, but so you have enough bite. Have the right hand on the throttle, and the left hand steering. Go slowly enough that you do NOT get caught on the face of the wave. I tend to use power to stay on the back of a wave, but never allow the boat to go over the top. I have experienced chine walking in some boats, but have avoided it in the C Dorys. Same for bow steering. I have taken waves over the bow in places like Cattle Pass, with heavy seas and an ebb tide.

I don't know the limit of the C Dory--I suspect if you get close to 20 feet and breaking that will become dangerous. I would probably be using a drogue in those conditions. The question of a sea anchor came up in another discussion--I am not a big fan of a "Sea Anchor"--not even sure what folks mean. There are the Para-anchors, the small drogues, the Medium sized "sea anchors" etc.

We ran down Johnston Straits with 10 to 12 footers and no problems.

The largest seas I have been in were documented at 45 feet and breaking--this was with several thousand miles of fetch and the wind between 65 and 70 knots. The boat I was on handled it fine--a few rolls to almost 90 degrees, but the boat was built to handle that.
 
yeah i keep trim tabs up now in a following, i don't mess with the trim too much i can play with that more. always one hand on throttle and one on wheel. I could work on going a little slower also. and agree it will just take some time to get used to the dory in the open ocean. the first time it surfed on me out of pa it scared the crap out of us, now were used to it and realize it isn't as bad as we once thought.

c dawg I always say I am going to go check out west port but have yet to make it there maybe this year will be it.

45' seas no thanks we were in 16' in sitka a few years back and while i was fine with it in a 24' boat. i wouldn't want to get beat up by much bigger.

and the 16-20' mark is where I think it would start to get questionable. I have yet to feel unsafe in our dory or take green water. pretty cool boats.
 
Once the seas are equal to the boat's LWL there is the chance of pitch poling. (Flipping end over end). With the right amount of power-and the fact that 16 to 20 foot seas are usually generated by a very long fetch--we would rarely if ever had to worry about that in the C Dory.

The steep waves by wind against current are an issue--but I have never seen ones more than maybe 15--on the other hand, some of the rapids have waves and whirl pools which capsize the 55 foot seiner boats!
 
Hear no mention of what windage does to these boats. Got caught in an over 40 knot blow and could not turn the boat into the wind unless I got her on the step. Ran for cover riding the short length waves (about 10 feet high) on the side (slightly into the waves, especially the big ones) just on the step and felt fine. Did see one of my passengers go careening on his chair form the port side of the transom to the starboard; clutching hard on his beverage. Sure shows how seaworthy these boats are... Mine a Venture 23' in the Pearl Islands on the Gulf of Panama.
And of course there is also, like I mentioned, the length or frequency between waves. This is a game changer. Avoidance is always the best course, and that means knowing the weather. Study a bit of meteorology, and always be on the alert for clues to what is coming your way. Head for cover... Even if the fishing is great!
Was at a beautiful sandy bay one evening and everybody wanted to spend the night there, but I saw nasty clouds of the horizon and said no. We moved into a real protected anchorage. That night no one spoke a word as gale force winds hit us. The rain came across parallel the water surface nil visibility, and I sat there thinking what moving in this stuff looking for cover would have been. A 60 foot yacht's anchor in front of us let loose and the boat came our way. We fended it off and the wind took int into the rocks. Next morning at daybreak heard music, and I looked over at the yacht... A couple was dancing on the foredeck, the boat perched upon round boulders high and dry in the low tide. We helped them set their anchor out on deeper water so they could pull themselves out with the high tide and headed for home.
 
Chester":20bw6qb4 said:
O, 'spose a fella finds himself surfing down a following sea. Is it folly to consider putting the boat into reverse?
Click to expand...
Yes. There's nothing wrong with surfing down a swell, the keys are 1) keep the boat reasonably square to the swell at the bottom and 2) Pull back throttle at the bottom so you don't stuff the nose into the backside of the next swell. When I'm fishing out of Neah Bay, the swell is almost always out of the west. Surfing swells back in is just a normal day. If I'm in a hurry, I'll power over the top, surf down under a little less power, pull throttle before the bottom and hit it again to climb back up. It can be a bit tiring if you do this for an hour or more but once you get the hang of it, it's not a big deal. It just requires a little concentration.
 
Roger thought you or someone else might have some local knowledge on this for future better outcomes.

Shortly after I got my boat 13 yrs ago a friend and I got into trouble coming back from a Gulf Is. across the Strait of Georgia to I think the N. fork of the Frazier. We checked weather, good forecast, I thought reasonable wind. We left about 9am and the wind waves got bigger as we were about half way. As a commercial boat went by effortlessly I was embarrassed to think what I looked like. Could only do about 6-9 knots and the stuff we were in was steep and tight, the bigger ones about the size of refrigerators and we were slamming a good deal. I thought a window or equipment might break or the boat might fracture in some way not having experienced that kind of a beating previously. Nothing broke but scared the ---- out of us. My strategy was if I could maintain the 7-9knots I would cont., if not, turn around and go back. We cont. without incident.

I wonder if I got myself into the the wind against the current thing or just the usual fair weather winds that come up there ( if like the coast later in the morning or early afternoon)?

Tom
 
Chester":xo0upb7p said:
O, 'spose a fella finds himself surfing down a following sea. Is it folly to consider putting the boat into reverse?
Click to expand...

Havn't boated in ocean swells myself but I did read where Coast Guard boats sometimes use reverse to slow their ride down the front of a swell. I suppose it could also be used to help keep your boat at the proper angle since you wouldn't want to use a lot of forward thrust for steerage and since there wouldn't be a lot of water flow past the "rudder" to give steerage. (boat moving in the same direction as the water flow with little or no forward thrust from the prop).

Regards, Rob
 
I've never really thought of using reverse when when sliding down a wave/swell. The boat usually slows down very quickly by just throttling back. Now that I have thought, a little, about it I don't think I'd care to be doing that much with the throttles. To me, and of course it's just my opinion, introducing forward reverse forward reverse into the equation just increases the chance of error or malfunction. I just slow down to a speed where I can maintain steerage, watch for broaching, try and stay on the back of a wave, etc. It seems to work for me.
 
I have been in enough stuff in the Gulf of Alaska to know C-Dory boats do very well. I honestly do not surf waves all that often any longer. A sharp eye on the wave trains, a good hand on the throttle, and choosing oblique angles (if possible) while picking a good route through the snotty stuff really, really, helps. There are always going to be times you get caught....I have been in stacked crap where I couldn't even see where I was going really. However, there was a good view of airplanes if any were overhead. There was a lot of slamming around. But, other than frayed nerves and crap flying all over the boat, it was ok - we lived....Stupid, stupid, trip......LOL.....
 
T.R. Bauer":31lgfzsz said:
I have been in enough stuff in the Gulf of Alaska to know C-Dory boats do very well. I honestly do not surf waves all that often any longer. A sharp eye on the wave trains, a good hand on the throttle, and choosing oblique angles (if possible) while picking a good route through the snotty stuff really, really, helps. There are always going to be times you get caught....I have been in stacked crap where I couldn't even see where I was going really. However, there was a good view of airplanes if any were overhead. There was a lot of slamming around. But, other than frayed nerves and crap flying all over the boat, it was ok - we lived....Stupid, stupid, trip......LOL.....
Click to expand...

Good stuff everyone

Tim

Thanks for the story as it applied to my earlier post getting caught in stacked crap. I left out some small details about my crossing, but your honesty has encouraged me. I thought you would appreciate this. I had my 1st gps, a Sitex that I did not understand... GO TO if it had it, might as well been WHERE FORE ART THOU! The compass bearing was in tiny print at the top of the screen. My friend Eric Leonard, fish sculpture extraordinaire here in Portland, was on a destroyer in the Vietnam war. And fortunately for us his duties related to navigation and he remembered some basic skills. We figured out a heading on my paper chart as best we could and I secured some of the stuff that was slamming around on the back deck. He said try to stay within two or three degrees of the heading. Boy was that fun (tiny numerals). At one point as things were getting cotton mouth frightening, he asked Tom what do you think,
meaning should we turn back? In the pause before I could answer he choked on a mouthful of coffee and sprayed directly onto the front port window. I said thats about right.

We ended up approx. 5 miles south of the river/port entrance, so glad to be out of the washing machine.

Back to your post RE: swells, you said you do not surf them much, but rather keep an eye on the trains, and a good hand on the throttle. I'm not sure what you meant with your technique. Can you explain more the difference from surfing? I understand previous explanations/principles of sliding/surfing swells with control. Also choosing oblique angles if possible and a good route through the snotty stuff. I took your meaning of oblique angles and a good route applying to the snotty stuff, snotty stuff meaning steep and close together waves, right?

Tom
 
If you're in closely stacked stuff, I'd say it's a bit different game. If you're in really confused seas, you mostly just have to go slow and pick your way through things. I'm guessing Tim handles that roughly the same way I do. Never get completely sideways to the waves and keep your eyes open to time some throttle acceleration to get to and through troughs and waves that look lower than others. I find that I can often see a bit of a "path" developing in which I can zig and zag and add a bit of throttle here and there and get a faster/smother ride than just pointing in the general direction of interest.

I was at the end of the Strait of Juan de Fuca a few years ago in my 22 and good hot wind picked up from the east. Waves got really stacked up on the incoming tide and I could only make 3-5kts for about 8 miles until I got into the lee of Tatoosh island. Not much I could do about it other than ride the "washing machine". Once I got into the lee, I ran south along the coast (still in the lee) and fished until the tide change. After that it was easy running back in.
 
Roger has it. Depeding on the direction you have to go, you can spend an incredible time on top of a wave, the bottom of a wave, and still make good time. You can almost always find a spot that is less steep, and you can shoot the gap between as they roll or break. If you are really paying attention, even a beam sea is no biggie. But keep a sharp eye out.....For the most part, one can avoid any surfing in these situations - mostly....LOL....

Now that really tight stacked crap, and I have been in it too many times, I don't know what to do about that. I'd rather be tied to the dock....You're not going to sink, the boat isn't taking on water, it is rough as all hell, and it takes seemingly hours to make any headway - it just sucks.....If you are in a spot that has a good anchorage nearby in the opposite direction, it is almost worth going there and waiting it out. I just slow down and try not to pound the boat to death.
 
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