Prepping to Buy... Advice?

[thataway]

Ok, looking at options from my dealer, I'm seeing "single engine battery distribution closer w/VSR".... Huh? Can somebody explain what this is pretty please?

The VSR (Voltage sensitive relay) is a combining relay, and it costs about $80--easily added later if you wish. What it means, is that the house battery is isolated from the engine start battery at rest and when the engine starts. This protects the electronics from both low voltage and spikes when the engine starts. As the start battery begins to charge, from the alternator, the voltage comes up--when it reaches 13.7 volts, the VSR combines the batteries, so they both charge. When you shut down the engine, and the resting battery voltage drops below 12.7 volts, the relay opens, and there is no risk of depleting the engine start battery during the time the engine is not running. I have had it on all of my C Dorys (in one form or another).

Batteries: The boats come with group 24 batteries, which are on the small side. They are adequate for starting the engine/engines, but a single battery is asking for problems down the line. I change my batteries to a group 31 battery. The "group" number is just a case size, but it also gives some indication of the capacity of the battery. At rest, lights, stereo, refrigeration, etc can drain a battery fairly fast.

Group 24 battery generally is 65 to 85 amp hours,
Group 27 battery generally is 85 to 105 amp hours
Group 31 battery generally is 95 to 125 amp hours.

A fully charged battery should be 12.6 to 12.7 volts at rest, depending on type of battery.

A 50% discharged battery will be approximately 12.2 volts. If the battery drops below 11.8 volts, it is for all purposes dead.

Many of us like to know batter voltage. The small analogue gauge which comes with some engines is not of much value. A good digital gauge is not expensive, and easy to install. Better is a digital gauge which shows the volts of both the house and engine start, and the current current draw, plus total current draw, or state of charge of the house battery. Some of us who run a refrigerator and freezer (yes in a 22), will have 3 AGM group 31 batteries, with a capacity of 125 amp hours per battery. We don't need that much for the engine start battery, but balanced battery banks is important (that the batteries be the same type, capacity and age) for longevity. Thus I have available in my house bank about 125 amp hours before I need to recharge them. When cruising this can be done from the engine, from solar panels, or from a generator and battery charger.

 

[kaelc]

I would recommend a handheld air horn (based on that recent video of a boat collision) and a good chart plotter. I'm a fan of Lowrance and last years model HDS are hard to beat on price and ability to add radar/autopilot down the road.

Make sure if you are planning to use Navionics on an Ipad/Iphone you have a dedicated mount, power source and external Bluetooth GPS antenna.

A shipyard owner says he can't believe how many people run their boats aground using an Ipad. Yes, it can be done but the distractions and reliability of them make it worth buying a good Garmin or Lowrance chartplotter in my opinion.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Mark--what inverter are you using? (Many stories of failed supposedly pure sine wave inverters and induction loads, which don't work).

I don't remember the brand name and won't be back to my boat for six weeks (I'm off to go boating "down under"). I looked at all of the inexpensive "pure sine wave" inverters on Ebay and then found reviews of them on YouTube. YouTube has a lot of electronic geeks hooking up the cheap Chinese inverters to oscilloscopes and giving reviews in electro-jargon. I found a good review on an inexpensive brand and went with it. Even though it produces enough (2000W) to run my single burner on high (#8), I never go past #5. Making coffee or heating soup is so fast that I'm not worried about using the highest speed. The inverter shuts down automatically if the battery gets low, so it's basically impossible to run the battery(s) below what I need to start the engine. I've found that, although the draw can be considerable, it's only for two or three minutes, so it hasn't been an issue even with my Group 24s.

I now cruise with a little extension cord so that I can put the burner out on the fish cleaning station on the transom. That gives me standing head room in the "galley" and it doesn't matter if it is windy. It really is a treat to have a quick, simple, flame-free stove on a 16.

Mark

 

[westward]

A shipyard owner says he can't believe how many people run their boats aground using an Ipad.

A tablet or phone doesn't have sonar capabilities that I'm aware of. Aside from displaying charted depths in your general area it could leave you literally "flying blind" in a shallow or low tide situation. Visual recon isn't always accurate or convenient either. I misplaced my Garmin 740 and had to use the Navionics App for a while, but it wasn't the same to me as having the chartplotter with real time depth info. for what lay immediately under my boat. One could maybe delay installation of the chartplotter by using a tablet for navigation, but then you'd need to install at least a cheap fish finder or equivalent, which would be money wasted in the longer term. My thoughts are to apply your own use preferences in roughly this order: Safety>Navigation>investment protection>convenience of use/comfort>fun. (It's very fun to avoid boating mishaps). At neutral choice points I'd favor items which would be relatively challenging or wasteful to add post-factory such as hydraulic steering or electric wipers, opening windows, etc. Cheers! Mike

 

[thataway]

A shipyard owner says he can't believe how many people run their boats aground using an Ipad.

A tablet or phone doesn't have sonar capabilities that I'm aware of. Aside from displaying charted depths in your general area it could leave you literally "flying blind" in a shallow or low tide situation. Visual recon isn't always accurate or convenient either. Mike

Actually there are wireless transmitters to the smart tablets and phones. One is "Sonar Phone turns your smart phone or tablet into a fully functional sonar system that will rival any high end sonar on the market today. Using Patented WiFi signal technology to transmit to smart phones or tablets. You don’t need cell phone coverage to use it, the SonarPhone will work anywhere in the world. The SonarPhone T-BOX creates its own WiFi hotspot and you can share your signal with as many people as you wish, the software App is downloaded for free from the App Store or Google Play and works with both Android and IOS systems."

Many of the modern systems have wi fi or blue tooth to the tablet from sonar units--and there are several other stand alone units.

The Navionics App gives several options of depth charts--NOAA charts, Standard Navionics or the Fishing chart"sonar chart" or community edits. Generally they are good, but Ben Elison in Panbo gives an example of some deep draft boats getting in trouble. from not understanding the chart app.

Boats have done the Great loop using only a tablet or phone Navionics App. Of course before there were depth finders or chart plotters--most of us seemed to avoid shipwrecks. I have seen boats run right up on reefs--it was usually ignorance, lack of situation awareness or negligence.

 

[Hunkydory]

I don’t fish much & neither does the starter of this thread & if not needing a high end sonar & transducer, a cheap low end will work fine, which is what I’ve used the last 14 years. I don’t have a transducer connected to either of my chart plotters & I personally prefer the stand alone depth finder not taking up room on my chart plotters or one can use the app that Bob suggested. The iPad used for navigation is the easiest to use of any chart plotter I’ve tried & in present form as accurate for navigation as any.

If one already owns a newer iPad, using it in combination with a lower end depth finder can give one a very inexpensive way to safely navigate. I’ve spent thousands of miles exploring new waters, while changing from NobleTech software on a note book computer to Garmin chart plotters to now the iPad as the primary. A few years ago, when others here were saying how great the IPad was for navigation, I was saying it wasn’t, as then in my experience the accuracy just wasn’t up to par. Now it is & so is its ease of use.

Jay

 

[thechadmiller]

I actually have a low end Lowrance that I was gonna install on a beater boat a family member gave me. I never installed it, but it's a:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/lowrance ... --18004390

Do you think using this as a depth finder and even a tiny screened GPS would work fine? Could always use it for just sonar and do an ipad for bigger screen chart plotter?

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

I actually have a low end Lowrance that I was gonna install on a beater boat a family member gave me. I never installed it, but it's a:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/lowrance ... --18004390

Do you think using this as a depth finder and even a tiny screened GPS would work fine? Could always use it for just sonar and do an ipad for bigger screen chart plotter?

That will be fine as a depth sounder and small screen chart. If you have an iPad, that can function as a larger screen chart. You might need a blue tooth gps puck if it isn’t cell capable. If you need a puck, I have one that I’m not using now.

Do get a Ram mount to hold the iPad so it can bee seen and not tossed around.

 

[Hunkydory]

Agree that will work fine as depth finder & also making sure iPad is gps capable.

This video shows us in 2012 in SE Alaska navigating a very intricate passage while using the iPad as a back up & it shows why we then used it only as a back up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P63pHKGBoTY

This one is in 2015 when we finally could trust the iPad & shows starting out in the fog using it as the primary, but also radar, Garmin chart plotters & depth finder.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KaBwdRgn ... e=youtu.be

Jay

 

[westward]

Bob: so, if I'm understanding correctly, my point still stands: one needs to have a sonar unit installed on the boat in order to have accurate real-time/site specific depth information? Some of the higher end sonar units can be bluetoothed to phones and tablets, but the phones and tablets BY THEMSELVES can only give chart -based depth information? My point is this, and correct me if I'm wrong: the original poster's new boat will need a sonar unit and transducer of some sort to get real-time depth information? If there's a tablet or phone that performs this function on a stand-alone basis that's certainly news to me. I don't discount it could be true, as we live times of rapid technological advance, I've just never seen such a thing.

Chad: Perfect! I prefer the Navionics app myself. I would also suggest downloading a marine traffic app to get real-time AIS based information re: larger boats moving about in your area. Can be handy in fog if you don't have radar, or as a supplement to radar. Either a fixed-mount or hand-held VHF is a must IMO, and fixed-mount is what I suggest you start with.

Best, Mike

 

[kaelc]

Hook 4 Do you think using this as a depth finder and even a tiny screened GPS would work fine? Could always use it for just sonar and do an ipad for bigger screen chart plotter?

Those Lowrance units are great and it looks like the same or similar transducer standard on thousand dollar units. We caught dozens of sockeye salmon one weekend just North of Campbell River on Vancouver island using an older version of that lowrance. Navigating to the hot spot and avoiding closed areas was a little difficult but prior to that we had used maps and black and white gps! You can always upgrade to a larger Hook screen in a couple of years when they show up cheap on ebay and use the old transducer.

You will have dozens of things to spend money on and most importantly you want dollars to put in the fuel in the boat and spend time away from work to use the boat.

 

[colbysmith]

Whatever you end up with, remember, navigation is what will keep you off the rocks. That includes sonar and location. I'm a little slow with the newest electronics. Are some of you saying that you can get iPads that work with GPS satallite signals alone? Ie, the unit does not need cell data to work? Colby

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Whatever you end up with, remember, navigation is what will keep you off the rocks. That includes sonar and location. I'm a little slow with the newest electronics. Are some of you saying that you can get iPads that work with GPS satallite signals alone? Ie, the unit does not need cell data to work? Colby

Yes

https://www.apple.com/shop/question/ans ... TY42PUPD97

And you can also/still use a Bluetooth gps antenna, which I believe more reliable.

 

[Hunkydory]

Colby, yes as Steve’s link shows, the iPad can be purchased with built in gps & antenna that doesn’t need a cell signal to give location. As you could see in the video I posted showing their use, the 2010 IPad in 2012 still did not always show the boat on the screen accurately. Not shown, but it also was somewhat slow in screen adjustments & going through menu items. My newer IPad Pro is the most accurate of & faster in all ways then my Garmin chart plotters.

With the combination of the iPad & other chart plotters, the iPad is always in a convenient place to also use for information other than navigation. This & also fast & easy to switch back & forth to do manual & auto routing, distances from any place to place, varying chart views, tides & currents, & many other items. Some don’t like using a touch screen, but I’ve found the iPad touch screen easier & faster to use than the standard chart plotter buttons, even in rough water.

Jay

 

[colbysmith]

Learn something new everyday! lol. My iPad is a generation 1 I believe. Good for wireless, and that's about it! One of these days I'll need to upgrade to a newer one! Colby

 

[thataway]

Mike you are correct that an I pad does not have a transducer which is held in the water. There are depth transmitters which are not attached to the boat--can be thrown like f fishing bobber, or a transducer with a small transmitter which transmits dept information. (could even be attached to a pole in front of the boat)

An analogy might be a tablet which does not have a GPS chip, has to have an external wireless connection to determine position--like Colby's gen 1 (non cellular--the cellular enabled i pads have always had a GPS chip--even gen 1) So yes, a tablet can receive depth information, without sonar instrument which has a screen on the boat.

The point remains that a smart phone/ tablet with gps/chart app is a good navigation tool--There are sailors who are crossing oceans with only this as a navigational Device. (No depth finder) It is far better than what we had only 35 years ago when I made a 40,000 mile trip. I have made many successful ocean voyages with far less. (Going back to sextant and lead line discussions.)

 

[RichardM]

On the lists of essentials there are great bits of advice. It's surprising there aren't more who suggest a good marine compass. It's often on "starter" lists along with an anchor, horn and flares. Beyond course-holding, it gives you a way to establish your position relative to landmarks and other vessels. And if electronics fail, it still works.

 

[ssobol]

... It's surprising there aren't more who suggest a good marine compass. ... Beyond course-holding, it gives you a way to establish your position relative to landmarks and other vessels. And if electronics fail, it still works.

Guess it depends on where you boat. Never being out of sight of land (rivers, lakes, bays or near shore), a compass doesn't have much utility IMO.

In my case, if all the electronics failed I'd head to the ramp and the thing I'd miss the most on the way back would be the depth finder. Also, in today's world it would take a lot of failures to get to the point where I only had the boat's compass left. It would take the failure of the chartplotter, 2 tablets, and 2 cellphones, before I was out of electronic aids.

 

[Brewkid]

I was going to comment on this earlier but started to add everything up and backed out.

I started with an outdate Raymarine A65. It worked, but I wasn't happy about it. After about 6 months, I bought a Samsung Tab A 10", Ram Mount, and Navionics. To say navigation improved was an understatement. What most seam to be missing about the tablets, is they assume because there is no internet connection, their maps wont feed. You must pre-download all maps and charts for the internal GPS to have something to track on. Your phone will do the same thing if you're out of coverage and you don't pre-download the "offline map areas" on google maps for example. The tablet setup is so good in fact, that I often use it over my brand new Garmin 942xs, or at a minimum both are running at the same time.

Now onto the depth sounding. Raymarine makes a WIFI/black box/transducer with Chirp technology no less called the WiFish. I almost pulled the trigger on this, but knew that I wanted radar in the near future as well so I back out.

My advice for a guy with a limited budget is, buy the simple combo for $329

A nice 7" chartplotter/fish finder combo, transducer included, will run you ***($329)*** https://www.westmarine.com/buy/lowrance ... ecordNum=3

***Tablet option total $327 before adding a tablet.***
Tablet of Choice. ($125-250) will get you going.

WI-FISH ($199) http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=11201

RAM MOUNT ($73) https://www.amazon.com/RAM-RAM-B-189-TA ... let++mount

NAVIONICS ($55) App store

On another note, add the small things that are truly needed to commission a boat. http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/reqequip.htm

-flares, life jackets, fire extinguisher, dock lines, 1 heaving/throwing/tow line, fenders, boat hook. Yes, at least 1 good anchor and rode(not sure that you'll need 3 to start with)

Last but not least, pack some common sense. Start with a short trip in good weather. Remember to put the plug in. Then go from there. It's only as difficult or in-depth as you want it to be. Enjoy.

John
Scallywag

 

[thataway]

I may have made a bad assumption that all C Dorys come with a compass--all of mine have had one, including the Tom Cat bought new.

A chart plotter does not give the direction the boat is facing unless the boat i moving. (There are some differential GPS compasses, but they tend to be a bit expensive.) Lets say you need to know the heading out of a harbor as you first fire the engine up, in a pea soup fog, or if a windstorm came up, and you have to get off a wall. There a compass bearing will get you on the right track immediately.

You wake up in the middle of the night and wonder if the boat has swung around or changed direction? Again the compass can tell you. There are other uses, even in a boat with 3 GPS.