Captains Cat
New member
That doesn't smell like yogurt toto.... :cry
Politics Again
- Thread starter Wandering Sagebrush
- Start date
El and Bill
New member
OK - this thread started with the idea that we could share 'other' viewpoints without anybody getting upset. OK - I'm not upset, but here's another viewpoint ...
Good Grief, you curmudgeons. We've never had it better!! Instant communications with far-off friends and relatives, free long-distance (what's long distance?) phone calls; instant at-home banking, amazing generosity (at home and abroad - all our grandkids donate to KIVA, micro-loans overseas, and to Heifer, Intern'l with gifts of farm animals to poor families abroad), we get news (and awareness) from around the world ...
Not to mention the medical and scientific advances in just the past century. And we have safer cars, fine air transportation, food at any season of the year that's fresh and inspected, safer highways, cleaner air and water, and on and on. And sure, the media will thrash over the exceptions - which only demonstrates that the norm has shifted to 'far better' than it used to be.
Kids? Of course they do things different than we did - is that wrong? Each generation establishes itself as distinct from the former (and the former always seems to think the 'kids' have lost it) with their own musical taste, their style of clothes, their speech patterns. Do we want status quo forever? Sure, the ol' timers do - that's what they know and recognize - but isn't that a block toward change, and who's to judge the value of those changes? Us ol' fogies? We're not going to live with it.
Should we have the world of segregation, women without rights, music only heard at concerts or on 33 r.p.m fuzzy records, phone calls costing a fortune (remember the three-minute timer?), etc. etc. Of course not, we say.
Would we like a world of 'our' music? Sure, and we have it. We tune to what we want to hear. Would we like a world where people are all considerate of each other? Of course, but there never has been such a world, and, as has been said, we 'flow with it.' Is the world really that much more discourteous and 'me first' than when we were kids? I doubt it - never seen a scientific study to 'demonstrate' this. Does it seem like it is? Sure, just as it did for our folks and their folks and their folks stretching back to the beginning of time.
Our grandkids are wonderful, sharing, generous, joyful, appreciative lil' rascals - are they always 'perfect' and courteous and respectful? Of course not - neither was I (and I'll bet your folks would say you weren't either).
Gizmos? Do the kids waste too much time on their iWhatevers? Well, a new school just opened in Chicago based on some research that shows that learning by children is MUCH faster, more complete, and more interesting to them if the 'teaching' is framed by games - yep - gizmo games. So far, VERY successful. Will present-day teachers like this? Of course not, no more than teachers liked calculators and computers - I fought that battle and know how resistent the teachers were for that change.
Instant messaging and twitter? Well, just a few years ago the big complaint by curmudgeons was that the world was becoming antisocial - membership in clubs, civic organizations, etc. etc. was declining and we were all 'turning into antisocial hermits.' Well, now the culture has rediscovered each other and we share and have a concern about each other - and the curmudgeons complain about that.
Good grief!
Good Grief, you curmudgeons. We've never had it better!! Instant communications with far-off friends and relatives, free long-distance (what's long distance?) phone calls; instant at-home banking, amazing generosity (at home and abroad - all our grandkids donate to KIVA, micro-loans overseas, and to Heifer, Intern'l with gifts of farm animals to poor families abroad), we get news (and awareness) from around the world ...
Not to mention the medical and scientific advances in just the past century. And we have safer cars, fine air transportation, food at any season of the year that's fresh and inspected, safer highways, cleaner air and water, and on and on. And sure, the media will thrash over the exceptions - which only demonstrates that the norm has shifted to 'far better' than it used to be.
Kids? Of course they do things different than we did - is that wrong? Each generation establishes itself as distinct from the former (and the former always seems to think the 'kids' have lost it) with their own musical taste, their style of clothes, their speech patterns. Do we want status quo forever? Sure, the ol' timers do - that's what they know and recognize - but isn't that a block toward change, and who's to judge the value of those changes? Us ol' fogies? We're not going to live with it.
Should we have the world of segregation, women without rights, music only heard at concerts or on 33 r.p.m fuzzy records, phone calls costing a fortune (remember the three-minute timer?), etc. etc. Of course not, we say.
Would we like a world of 'our' music? Sure, and we have it. We tune to what we want to hear. Would we like a world where people are all considerate of each other? Of course, but there never has been such a world, and, as has been said, we 'flow with it.' Is the world really that much more discourteous and 'me first' than when we were kids? I doubt it - never seen a scientific study to 'demonstrate' this. Does it seem like it is? Sure, just as it did for our folks and their folks and their folks stretching back to the beginning of time.
Our grandkids are wonderful, sharing, generous, joyful, appreciative lil' rascals - are they always 'perfect' and courteous and respectful? Of course not - neither was I (and I'll bet your folks would say you weren't either).
Gizmos? Do the kids waste too much time on their iWhatevers? Well, a new school just opened in Chicago based on some research that shows that learning by children is MUCH faster, more complete, and more interesting to them if the 'teaching' is framed by games - yep - gizmo games. So far, VERY successful. Will present-day teachers like this? Of course not, no more than teachers liked calculators and computers - I fought that battle and know how resistent the teachers were for that change.
Instant messaging and twitter? Well, just a few years ago the big complaint by curmudgeons was that the world was becoming antisocial - membership in clubs, civic organizations, etc. etc. was declining and we were all 'turning into antisocial hermits.' Well, now the culture has rediscovered each other and we share and have a concern about each other - and the curmudgeons complain about that.
Good grief!
Hey Bill and El!
Good points!
And I'm sure most all of us agree!
But I think we're just having fun playing the grouchy old man's role, dragging up the obvious and making humorous (at least some of us think so) references to easy targets to lay the blame on.
No offense taken, just having fun!
Happy New Year!
Captain Crumudgeon
Joe. :teeth :thup
Good points!
And I'm sure most all of us agree!
But I think we're just having fun playing the grouchy old man's role, dragging up the obvious and making humorous (at least some of us think so) references to easy targets to lay the blame on.
No offense taken, just having fun!
Happy New Year!
Captain Crumudgeon
Joe. :teeth :thup
Sea Wolf":3ua0j1pr said:
Yep!
The discussion initially was about "civility." I enjoy my "gizmos" (gizmi?). Yes, I think as a society we certainly have it better ("it" being our day-to-day conveniences). I also think it is great that Bill and El have wonderful grandkids... wish I had a few. You are, indeed, blessed.BUT, is society (regardless of the age) more civil now than it was 25-30 years ago? I haven't looked for a scientific study... but when I was a kid, we didn't have metal detectors in our schools (or the airports, or public buildings, or...). Oh-oh... is the discussion turning serious? Sure, bad stuff happened. But, do you remember any drive-by shootings, school shootings, home invasions, serious road rage incidents, car-jackings, CEOs bilking billions out of trusting investors, ... oh, goodness, don't make me go on and on.
Yes, I wrote my initial reply tongue-in-cheek, but all the modern conveniences don't equate to civility. Our daughter and son-in-law are teachers. We are fortunate that they are in a school that requires discipline and civility. When I was a kid, if you got in trouble at school, you got in even more trouble when you got home. Now, many parents say, "You are picking on little Johnny" and sue the school. Many kids come to school without ever having been taught manners at home. Think I'm way off base? Ask a teacher. Ask a teacher who has been in the profession for 20 years if there has been a change in civility in the kids over the years. I really don't think the kids have "lost it" - there are plenty of good kids out there. I don't really care what they listen to, how they wear their hair, or what they want to pierce or tattoo. Old or young, there is a certain decorum that one needs to mesh in society... if you were never taught that or simply don't feel that "the rules" apply to you, that leads to less civility.
Technology can be a boon to our lives, no doubt about it. BUT it will never take the place of parents who put an emphasis on civility and actually participate in raising their children, as opposed to allowing them to be raised by plopping them in front of the TV or computer. Technology doesn't make someone a better parent... or a more civilized person. That takes heart, caring, time, and leading by example. Proper use of technology can be used to improve civility rather than isolating.
I joked before about a few things, but I honestly think society as a whole is less kind and civil than it used to be.
I say: Let's put CIVIL back in civilization!
Happy New Year one and all,
Jim
AstoriaDave
New member
This is a very illuminating thread. Thanks to Jim for initiating it.
What Jim seems to mean by "civility" is more than just manners, although good manners do stem from the olden days when a correct and nonconfrontational greeting between two cavemen bearing clubs was critically necessary to show no evil or warlike intent.
I think what I see (longtime teacher at the community college level) is a decrease in understanding of what the other guy's point of view and fiefdom might entail. In essence, a triumph of the "it is all about me, isn't it?" culture over the "we gotta share turf and get our own while allowing the other guy his piece, also" culture I grew up in.
My base was in Southern California in the glory years of heavy military presence coupled with heavy aerospace development ... and we towed the line pretty much because if we raised unreasonable hell, word got back to the discipline machine and we got nailed for it.
I'm a card-carrying libertarian-contaminated lefty, and a strong believer in living with the consequences you make for yourself. Meaning: if you screw up, you pay for it; and at the same time, we ought to have a focused, measured, helping hand out for screwups, meted out as they crawl back into the good graces of the rest of us. No good comes from unmitigated handouts, whether they be for high-flying CEO's or slimeballs dealing dope.
I don't mean those examples to suggest a political focus here, but I think the slack we see on both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum stem from that same business: the rise of the "it is all about me, isn't it?" culture.
We need a lot less of that attitude.
What Jim seems to mean by "civility" is more than just manners, although good manners do stem from the olden days when a correct and nonconfrontational greeting between two cavemen bearing clubs was critically necessary to show no evil or warlike intent.
I think what I see (longtime teacher at the community college level) is a decrease in understanding of what the other guy's point of view and fiefdom might entail. In essence, a triumph of the "it is all about me, isn't it?" culture over the "we gotta share turf and get our own while allowing the other guy his piece, also" culture I grew up in.
My base was in Southern California in the glory years of heavy military presence coupled with heavy aerospace development ... and we towed the line pretty much because if we raised unreasonable hell, word got back to the discipline machine and we got nailed for it.
I'm a card-carrying libertarian-contaminated lefty, and a strong believer in living with the consequences you make for yourself. Meaning: if you screw up, you pay for it; and at the same time, we ought to have a focused, measured, helping hand out for screwups, meted out as they crawl back into the good graces of the rest of us. No good comes from unmitigated handouts, whether they be for high-flying CEO's or slimeballs dealing dope.
I don't mean those examples to suggest a political focus here, but I think the slack we see on both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum stem from that same business: the rise of the "it is all about me, isn't it?" culture.
We need a lot less of that attitude.
Interesting thread--and responses. Bill makes some very valid points. Despite some of the negitives of the advances of our generations, there are many pluses. Boating is a heck of lot easier than when I started--with zero electronics, and oars, sails of if you were really lucky an outboard engine. Travel is much easier--my first airplane flights were in a private plane--I don't believe that my father flew commercially until the 50's. My first commercial flight was to Hawaii was in 1954 and took over 7 hours. Today we get there in half the time.
I see all of the advances as enhancing our lives, including longivity. The lack of civility certianly is related to family values and the way that children are brought up. We notice a broad spectrum of values in all areas of the country, but some areas and in some social circles the people are just as civil (or maybe more so) than 50 years ago.
Again, I see the responsibility of the parent as the defining factor of the behavior of children (of all ages). Generally I have come to the point in life where I ignore the uncivil behavior. There is not all that much time left in life, and it is non productive to worry about those who do not have manors, or choose to behave in a non civil manor.
I also marvel on how many complex parts of our societies thrive on the good will of others--for example the S. Calif. freeways. Because of the crowding and necessity to all get along, the freeway systems work very well, with only the occasional departure from civil behavior. (Matt you would have been killed. if that incident had occured in S. Calif--in Florida, both parties might have been legal CCW carry and again it would have been a tenious situation...!)
I see all of the advances as enhancing our lives, including longivity. The lack of civility certianly is related to family values and the way that children are brought up. We notice a broad spectrum of values in all areas of the country, but some areas and in some social circles the people are just as civil (or maybe more so) than 50 years ago.
Again, I see the responsibility of the parent as the defining factor of the behavior of children (of all ages). Generally I have come to the point in life where I ignore the uncivil behavior. There is not all that much time left in life, and it is non productive to worry about those who do not have manors, or choose to behave in a non civil manor.
I also marvel on how many complex parts of our societies thrive on the good will of others--for example the S. Calif. freeways. Because of the crowding and necessity to all get along, the freeway systems work very well, with only the occasional departure from civil behavior. (Matt you would have been killed. if that incident had occured in S. Calif--in Florida, both parties might have been legal CCW carry and again it would have been a tenious situation...!)