Plumbing help

Bob,
You are correct in the change of code in your county--- not only your county, but most of the country.
In 2000 the three model codes in the country (BOCA, ICBO & SBCCI) got together and created the ICC codes. These new codes are now the model codes for most of the country.

BOCA- Building Official and Code Administrators
ICBO- International Conference of Building Officials
SBCCI- Southern Building Code Congress International
ICC- International Code Council
CABO- Council of American Building Officials

At the time your house was built, it was probably under the SBCCI and used the CABO One and Two Family Dwelling Code ( which became the basis for the International Residential Code (IRC) currently in use)

Sorry-- didn't mean to ramble on so.

Roger
 
At the risk of being called a bigot again I will post about 'Made in China' building materials. I've worked in construction for many years and have been in 'value added' meetings where the customer and customer's engineers try to reduce the winning bid numbers because the lowest bid was over budget. A lot of times the mechanical (i.e.. plumbing, sprinklers, HVAC) spec sheets will require 'Made in America' components and materials. The mechanical engineers would state that they would not accept any pipe or fittings made in China because of its high fail rate after the warranty period. Also in copper water systems there was a high level of suspended metals in the water. It's my guess that was the copper pipe dissolving. On one job the sprinkler fitter stocked his material chart with American made fittings for visual inspection. He would carry 5 gallon buckets of Chinese fittings to the attic area in the morning before inspectors arrived and use them for his installation. The engineer had previous experience with the contractor so he crawled up into the attic to see for himself. He made the contractor remove all the Chinese made fittings. Some of the piping was behind hard lids so the contractor swore that those fittings were all American and he blamed the shop boy for stocking the wrong fittings in the attic. When the sprinkler system was charged sure enough there was nine leaks behind the hard lid. All the leaks were in fittings made in China. Some weren't even bad threads but holes that blew out from sand or other foreign material that was in the castings. In the forum 'Thats Life' a fellow Brat has posted a link about sheetrock made in China that is emitting sulfur dioxide poisoning the people who live in the houses where it was used. It's everybody's own choice what they buy and from which country of origin it's from. For me I first try to buy American if possible. If I must buy foreign and I have more than one choice I use the following order given the quality is equal, Canada, Mexico, Central or South America, then all other countries including Taiwan. China is last and only if I have no other choice. I urge everyone to shop America first. The job and life you save may be your own. Bob, I'm not saying your problem is imported pipe but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it until you confirm the country of origin. I know that there have been problems with imported pipe and fittings in other areas of the country.
Forrest
 
Bob,

My impression is this appears to be electrolysis. In fact, it appears this piping became the anode for your entire house. A couple things I would examine:

(1) Where is the ground for the house?
(2) Ensure there is only one single ground pipe (or system for the house).
(2) Dedicate the house ground to a single over 8' piece of solid copper rod which is definitely over 8' in length if you're in a wet enviroment, if you're not in a wet environment, then place additional house ground rods (which must not be over 8' between each grounding rod) and ensure the rods are all tied very securely together.
(3) Do not employ the water pipes in the house as the house ground.
(4) Ensure you do not have more than one independent ground station in your house. Tons of problems resulting from numerous ground-points in a house - including the very real acceleration of electrolysis.
(5) It's often suggested you can tie the house ground to rebar in the foundation - is it possible they might have done that? In my experience, and opinion, I find this approach unacceptable. Ground rods should be a minimum of over 8' in lengh buried a minimum of 8' in length into the ground - preferably a very wet saturated terrain.

I read where you stated no current on any pipes. I would be interested in the resistance/ohm measurements in your piping and your ground rods.

Looking at the pictures and reading your post again (i.e. cold water pipes in tact and fine, hot water pipes complete electrolysis) - it almost points to the hot water pipe on the water heater becoming the anode for the entire house. Somehow it appears that pipe became an electrolytic "dump".

One of the less expensive ways and often best ways to correct an unknown issue of electrolysis is to cut out a piece of the suspect copper piping and insert a piece of PVC piping; or, ensure non-conductive washers, or plasitc spacers are employed in the fittings. I would ensure this in the hot water piping you had issue with. If a copper rod is touching a galvanized (lets say in this case) steel rod (lets' say as in your grounding system or otherwise) electrolysis will greatly be accelerated, as well.

Again, strictly opinion, but it sure looks like very heavy electrolysis.
 
Brent--good memory on the British Pipe standard!
Roger--I had remodeled another house just prior to purchase of this home, and the applicable code was SBCCI (which I exceeded)-assumption is that this house was also SBCCI. When we replaced the pool cage (old code) after Ivan, the verticals were 2" wider, and spaced only 6 feet apart, vs 8 feet previously, and the overhead horizontals were also 2" higher and 1" wider. Double the anchors and guy wires.

Forrest--I once was doing some galvanized pipe work and every chinese fitting was misthreaded which I pruchased at a local home store. (all taken back and I went to a plumbing supply for US fittings. But who knows where this copper came from?

Norm--The only "ground pipe" is the cold water pipe coming into the water heater--that has solid copper wire which runs to a common ground rod outside and near the meter / distribution box. We do have a separate ground rod (all 8') next to the genset which is about 6' from the ground rod on the electrical box. The other ground rod is about 30 feet away and on the outside Jacuzzi. The house water pipes are not part of any ground system that I can find (no clamps)--but of course the copper pipes are buried in the soil--and the water was up to almost the slab during Hurricane Ivan for about 6 to 8 hours. (Never inside of the house). All ground points for water pipe, AC electrical, and genset are on one side of house, and within 6 feet of each other.
Rebar does not seem to be grounded. We do have wet soil down here! But that right under the house is dry and drains well (mostly because we on the mound). I am still worried about electrolysis--I have checked with my electrician and he feels we are good on the ground system....

Here is the hooker--we still could not be certain where the kitchen sink is plumbed from. Complicated our testing, but involved running 1/4 poly tubing thru the abandoned pipe, blowing air (oral and compressed) thru the pipes, listening to "taps" on the pipe, video scope etc--)--and we ran the new pipe through the attic, and turned on the water: it came through a pipe which we thought was the one we had abandoned! So we are back to square one, until tomorrow.....

Any thoughts how to trace water pipes with holes in them under a slab?

Morals--wrap pipes going in the soil. Check the quality of pipes (how do you do that--are all US copper tubing perfect? Take photos of the house as it is built--but not done by the person who had it built. Of course blue prints do not show how to run water pipes, only where the stub outs are...
 
Regarding testing to find holes in water pipes running underground. For obvious reasons, employ this method for either the hot or the cold water sytem only e.g. isolated.

Put food dye coloring into the piping system at some point - you could do this anyway you like, sink, water heater, drain, insert a temporary inlet into a line - whatever. Run the water for an extended period of time - ensuring of course you employ ample food dye coloring, and examine for ground-water leaching at point of effluent discharge.
 
Bob I find it strange that in and earlier post you mentioned that the cold water pipe was fine only the hot water pipe was affected. It definately looks like electrolysis to me. I expect the cold water and hot water pipes are run together in the same environment so you would think they would both be damaged. You mentioned also the cold water pipe is grounded at the water heater perhaps the hot water pipe should have been grounded also with perhaps a jumper to the coldwater pipe. Just food for thought. On edit the hotwater pipe should be insulated at the fitting at the hotwater tank (dissimiliar metals) so it wouldn't get a ground through the tank.
 
I may be off my rocker here but I find some discrepancy in what you stated Bob.

You stated you had only one "ground pipe" and it was tied to the cold water pipe off the water heater? Huh? And, then you said effectively, you have two more ground pipes; and, one of them is a direct ground rod from the electrical system into the ground Earth at the main service panel; and, then you said you have another ground rod at the jacuzzi.

I am not clear on why you need the cold water ground pipe to the water heater - don't you already have a solid copper pipe ground at the main service panel? Unless I'm missing something, this ground pipe which is tied to your water heater has now become a ground system employing all of the piping in your home; in addition, you have two other separate grounding systems (perhaps - not sure about the sub-panel feed off the main service panel).

Also, regarding the jacuzzi - you stated you have another ground. Is the area where your jacuzzi is located "tied" to the main house? IOW, is the electrical to the jacuzzi employing a separate sub-panel off the main house? I trust the answer to this last question would be you are employing a sub-panel off the main service panel of your home since you have elected to insert another independent ground rod.

The point I'm making regarding the latter (e.g. is the jacuzzi system an integral part of the foundation of the your main house wiring system) and not separated from your main house by any appreciable distance. This has a significant impact on the neutrality and grounding of your system (but I think you might already know that).
 
Right, well, yeah....anyways, I was wondering if you have a "bonding" wire at the cold water pipe of the hot water heater, or you truly do have a "grounding pipe" at the cold water pipe of the hot water heater. I know codes vary in different states and sometimes within certain localities of states, but if I'm not mistaken, you should be "bonding" the hot and the cold water pipes together to form a contiguous grounding circuit on a hot water heater. If you don't bond the hot water pipe with the cold water pipe, you can lose grounding continuity because the many teflon/plastic liners, spacers etc inside the hot water heater itself will effectively separate/isolate the cold water pipes from the hot water pipes. You could actually create an isolated eletrolytic "dump" at the hot water pipe - sending all the electrolytic potential to the hot water pipe from your house. I would suspect you'd experience the greatest manifestation of this dump below ground level (and in particular in a very salty environment) where the greatest amount of free ions remain in solution around this "dump". FWIW. I'm sure you've read about the disparity of not using a bonding strap on a hot water heater to effectively tie the cold water pipes with the hot water pipes.
 
Concerning the "China" pipe--- I have rejected several hundred feet of the crap.
When the contractor submits the "China" cast iron DWV pipe, I always try to turn it down. But since it has the required paper work showing that it meets spec, the architect usually approves it.
This crap leaks like a sieve. Contractors like it because it is so cheap.
When we test it, I always take my time and walk every foot of the line--- need to check the fittings and hangers. I always find sections where water is seeping through the pipe itself, fittings are usually ok-- it's the pipe that leaks.

It is now against the law to spec "American Made Only"-- except for Government projects where they are allowed to have 10% Foreign steel.
I rejected a whole load of "Mexico" rebar a few years ago, and the only way I was able to force the removal of it from the project is because they could not produce the required Mill Certs for it and they did not want to pay for the testing.

But , again, I ramble on---

Good Night All,

Roger
 
Norm, Thanks for the comments. There are two ground wires (solid copper) at the cold water pipe as it goes into the water heater. One of these runs to the frame/motor of an indoor Jacuzzi tub in the bath, right behind the water heater. The second exits the building and is tied into the ground rod which is just below the main service pannel. Also attatched to this ground rod are the frame of the air conditioner, and a wire from the main service pannel ground system (house ground).

The genset is about 4 feet from the main service pannel. The interior house is now fed thru a new service pannel (inside the garage), and this is also attatched to the the ground of the service box with copper wire. There is a separate ground rod, about 6 feet from the main ground rod, which is attatched to the frame of the generator.

There are actually two ground rods on the back of the same side of the house. One is attatched to a cold water faucet on that side of the house, plus two pump motors for swiming pool. The "cage" around the pool is also attatched to this ground rod. It is my understanding that a separate ground is required for the swimming pool and its pumps etc. There is another ground rod which is tied to the chassis of the outdoor (continously used) Jacuzzi. Again, I believe that is is required by code. Summary. Four ground rods, plus one at the dock, about 60 feet away. Two by main service pannel, two by the pool and Jacuzzi. These are about 30 feet apart. The cold water pipe system is attatched to ground rods in both areas. The pool and Jacuzzi are run off the main pannel, as is the dock (which has a separate ground rod)

The house Electrical was inspected upon completion, after Hurricane Ivan and when the16 KW Genset was installed (less than a year ago).

There is no direct ground wire to any hot water pipes which I have seen. Again having not built the house, there are many questions.

I don't find any direct connection between the hot and cold water pipes. (the plumbing to the water heater is flex copper, with a direct NPT connection to galvanized nipples to the hot water tank. I have to assume that there is an insullating fitting inside of the nut which connects the flex to the galvanized pipe). However, there is direct electrical continuity between the hot and cold pipes--at the manufolds, at the water heater and in the ground. So these are tied together at some point. I have to assume bad pipe, since the cold water pipe looks great--and the hot is rotten. (taking into account the temp and EMF generated by moving water and particles).

But is is my understanding that there is cross connection in the shower valves between the hot and cold systems (4 mixing valves in the house), plus a mixing valve in the indoor Jacuzzi tub--all seem to have solid copper pipe connections.

The generator and external Jacuzzi installation instructions require that a ground rod be placed (we always use 8 foot copper, driven to within 3" of the top into the soil.)

Not sure if that clarifies where we are or not. (aside, the kitchen sink is supplied with the line which we are abandoning, and not from the line to the bathrooms, which we have bypassed through the attic.. Major problem getting the water to the kitchen sink...but that is life).
 
Bob,
Sorry, "Bob", I can't help but not toss in some humor (I'm a House/Scrub's Junkie when I do watch TV),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPtHNCbZjfQ&NR=1.
I'm not an electrician, I've remodelled & rewired several homes (including putting in several sub-panels on detached structures and upgrading from 100A>200A several times) with a couple of friends who are certified electricians - they're pretty good from what I gather. I always thought to ensure a proper ground for the main home, you need to ensure the ground in the main house is contiguous. Therefore, I've always strived to maintain a contiguous ground system in which all grounding rods and any metal which runs through the house is contiguous with the main ground system of the home. In our present home, the polarity was totally whacked when we purchased. I've upgraded the electrical in ~90% of the house, and isolated the section of the house which is (still currently) of reverse polarity.
Well, anyways, I think there are more expert electricians within our group who can make additional suggestions, and these are only my opinions. As I have been upgrading the electrical in this home, I've found watching the resistivity of the ground system is critical to ensuring a good ground. I'm not sure I'd agree about the bad pipe, just my opinion - I still think it's heavy-duty electrolysis just in examining that hot water pipe alone. If the cold water pipe is fine and demonstrates no corrosion after 8 years and (in the picture) it's buried in the same area as the hot water pipe, I can't imagine the hot water pipe was manufactured in China, and the cold water pipe was manufactured in the USA. Perhaps they came in on different boats. That last statement was intentionally designed to be humorous, not offensive. :mrgreen:
 
Norm, I have also both rewired and built houses, including the full electrical. (Plus more boats than I want to think of). I do appreciate your comments and they stimulate my investigation of what is involved in this house.

What we have found on our houses in this part of Florida (ground water is very shallow), is that there is some "leakage" of power to the ground and neutral when the wires were run in conduits or directly in specificly designed 2 wire/ground ensheathed in plastic designed to be buried. I have seen as much as 3 volts in one run. (different house) After putting a second ground rod, the voltage abnormality disappeared. When you look at each of the circuits to the pumps, Jacuzzi and boat dock, there is a copper wire ground to each units. Where there was 220, 3 wires plus ground were run. This is perhaps a bit of overkill.

The area of corrosion of the pipe is remote from where the conduit or Romex type NM wire is buried.

The cold water pipe is fine--slight surface dulling, but on scratching is bright copper just under the surface oxidation. (and is buried about 3" from the hot water pipe). My plumber (and I talked to my AC contractor who has also seen bad copper) has seen bad coils of the copper tubing. A coil is 60 feet. We will eliminate about 80% of in ground hot water copper tubing when this is finished. Certainly this specific roll will be eliminated.

Did one roll come from china and the other not? I have no idea. Did both rolls come from the same manufacture or same lot--quite possibly not. Large contractors buy multiple rolls of copper at once. I would guess that my house has at least 6 rolls of 3/4" copper tubing used in its construction, and certainly one could be bad (bad alloy).

On the other hand, if there is something I can do to avoid further electrolysis/corrosion, then I will do it. I am considering at least one anode on the water heater pipe. I am not sure if what we have would warrent the installation of a "copper knight" anode--cost $650. But what we see is not the typical "pin hole" type of electrolysis.

As always, thoughts are appreciated.
 
Bob I hate to beat a dead horse but just because you read continuity between your cold water and hot water pipe doesn't mean they are electrically/mechanically connected. Your hot water pipe in the ground is in itself a ground and probably at a different resistive value than your service entrance driven ground rods. Thats why I suggest a jumper connecting the two. On a sub panel accroding to the National Electrical Code you must run four conductors two hots a neutral and a ground going back to your service entrance ground. At a sub panel the ground and neutral must be isolated from one another unlike your main panel where the ground and neutral bus is tied together. So what you describe on your 220V circuit isn't really overkill it's code. Electrical codes are somewhat different in each county but they all must adhere to the NEC as a minimum. You probably already know this but I figured I'd mention it.
 
Bob,
Here in Nevada there is a ten year window for builder defect lawsuits.
If you have a problem with your new home within ten years of purchase you have the option of filing suit. This created quite a lot of business for lawyers during the boom years.
I don't advocate suing just thought I'd mention it. The homeowner sue's the Contractor, and then the Contractor sue's all the sub's.
Unfortunately during the boom years work is rushed thru and problems occur.
I've always thought a schematic of electric lines, water, etc. should be provided for all homes. It would alleviate many headaches down the road.

JT :smiled
 
Has anyone built a head compartment on a C Dory 22? I'm talking with Gold Star Marine in Port Townsend, Wa and they can build one behind the cabin in the cockpit but I'm wondering what other people have done.
 
Bryant, Yes, one C Dory 22 owner gave up part of the dinette and put in a head. Make a separate thread for information about that.

Marvin, you are correct. Most texts say that the brass shower mixing valves do give a continuity between the hot and cold pipes. I have 5 mixing valves where the copper pipe goes directly to the brass mixing valve. But It probably would not hurt to put a bridge at the heater itself. I'll check with our local experts. Thanks!

Brent, you must keep a catalogue of "Tom Cat" mistakes! I still have 4 tubes of Bostik out of the 6 that the factory sent me to seal the end grain balsa on the back of the Tom Cat cabin.

Due to the weekend, we are still showing in the RV--no work over the last two day. It boils down to breaking up more slab, vs going overhead down thru plenums and behind stoves and cabinets etc....Plus figuring out why a reducer from 3/4" to 1/2" was buried under the slab....unless there is some stub out where there is no plumbing...
 
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