Picked up an old 22 angler and need a new main

C

Closecall

New member
I've been lurking for quite a while, researching and this site has been a wealth of knowledge.

After looking at almost every cdory in the state I just brought home an old garage kept 22 angler. It's got some dings and age on her but it's in great shape.

The guy I bought it from (original owner) was out last week and threw a rod in the origina 89 suzuki 85. When he got home he priced out a new main and when he recovered from the shock he promptly put it up for sale as is.

So now I need a new main. Looking at the recent advances in some of the new 4 strokes the two standouts are the Suzuki df90a and the Yamaha f70.

I'd really like to go with the 257 lbs 70 but I wonder about performance. I'd be content to be able to run 20 in a flat calm but not at the expense of running the mill at 5500 rpms to make it happen. I've never seen any hard and fast rpm vs knots data on the f70 on a post Classic cdory 22. I tend to keep things light but a 1000 lbs load happens occasionally. Anyone?

The df90a is most likely 20 hp more than I need and 90 lbs overweight, but I know it's got the reserve for any heavy cruising I can fathom. It's lighter than the Honda, Yamaha, etec and tohatsu offerings and is the most recently upgraded and modernized of the bunch. Does anyone have anything negative to say about the zuk?

Thanks,

Close call
 
If you search for postings by "redfox," he has some information on running the Yamaha 70. However, he has the older "flat" bottomed boat, not the post-86 style like you have. So not perfect info, but at least something.

I think he had one thread when the engine was new, and then another one later after adjusting props and spending more time with it.

That light engine on the stern would be fantastic if all else worked for you about it. I really wanted one but wasn't able to find anyone who ran one with a "cruising" 22. So far still running my 2002 Yamaha 80, but it's nice to know what I would get if/when I did re-power, so I look into things.

I also think the new Yamaha 115 looks very interesting. At around 377#, it's not much heavier than a lot of the 90's, and is a current design (my 80 hp is 369#).
 
The problem I see with the Yamaha 70 is that it is the Yamaha 50 on steroids--996cc (60.8 ci) To get that HP you have to be running in the top of the RPM gauge (over 4000, and probably over 4500.

The Suzuki 90 is 1502 cc and 91.7 CI About 1/3 more displacement. I would definitely go with the 90. As for corrosion issues with Suzuki--overall less than with Yamaha (but corrosion issues have been present in all modern outboards to some extent), if you follow all of the boards. I have owned 4 Suzuki's and zero corrosion issues. I understand that the corrosion issue were in older motors, and not aware of these in the latest incarnation of this engine--but if MartyP has some documentation of this I am all ears!

A lot of the corrosion issue is how you care for the motors. I happen to flush my engines after salt water use, and I feel that is prudent in any aluminum block engine.
 
The infamous corrosion issues have been well-documented. A good summary is posted on another boating site. Below is the quote:

"It affects 2002-2007 model years DF 90, 115, and 140. There is a threaded hole there originally intended for an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, but it was not used in US models. Suzuki cheaped out and used a steel plug in an aluminum housing. Here is a good overview of the issue:

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/395845-suzuki-df140-engine-holder-corrosion-fix.html#b

If you catch early, you can either A) replace it with a cheap aluminum plug (less than $20), or B) have a welder grind the steel plug out and weld the hole shut. Much cheaper than replacing the holder.

From what I read about it, it seems like a major contributing factor is not staying on top of maintenance w/ the the internal zincs in the motor. My zincs are 40% gone at 400 hours, and I only run maybe 25% of the time in saltwater. IMO, these need to be inspected every 100-200 hours, and replaced when they look more than 50% gone." (quoted from Threeweight, Arima Owners Group)

I was lucky enough to be able to unscrew the steel plug 2 years ago and find virtually no corrosion. I then replaced it with the cheap aluminum plug referred above which I purchased on Ebay for approximately $10. We have also kept the boat stored indoors probably 8 out of 11 seasons which I think makes a big difference. In any case, it's a bad problem which Suzuki has never addressed. Engines 2008 or newer don't have this problem. Still love our Suzi.
 
I researched the corrosion issues with the Suzuki and it seems to be a 2007 and earlier problem.

You guys are confirming that for me.

The new df90a seems to be the best 90 out there today I assume Yahmaha will update their 90 shortly...ala the new f70 and f115.

Thanks for the feedback.

Closecall
 
Sunbeam":25zbwyzu said:
If you search for postings by "redfox," he has some information on running the Yamaha 70. However, he has the older "flat" bottomed boat, not the post-86 style like you have. So not perfect info, but at least something.

I think he had one thread when the engine was new, and then another one later after adjusting props and spending more time with it.

That light engine on the stern would be fantastic if all else worked for you about it. I really wanted one but wasn't able to find anyone who ran one with a "cruising" 22. So far still running my 2002 Yamaha 80, but it's nice to know what I would get if/when I did re-power, so I look into things.

I also think the new Yamaha 115 looks very interesting. It around 377#, it's not much heavier than a lot of the 90's, and is a current design (my 80 hp is 369#).
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I've read red fox's reports but he doesn't give specific numbers. His boat is also very different from mine so I have to take the reports with a grain of salt.

If I knew I could run 18-20 knots at less than 4000 rpms with say 800 or 900 pounds on board i'd go throw some cash at my local yami dealer and walk out with a new f70.

Closecall
 
Closecall":leluxcgc said:
I assume Yahmaha will update their 90 shortly...ala the new f70 and f115.
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That's what I'd really like. I mean sure, the new Yamaha 115 is only 7# heavier than my current Yamaha 80 -- and the current Yamaha 90. But a similarly designed new 90 should then be even lighter, which would be great (and 90hp would be fine for me). Right now the 90 is sort of a heavy old lump in between the 70 and 115. I contacted Yamaha and tried to get a glimmer of information, but their lips are sealed.

Closecall":leluxcgc said:
I've read red fox's reports but he doesn't give specific numbers. His boat is also very different from mine so I have to take the reports with a grain of salt.
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That's exactly why I didn't feel comfortable using that info to make a decision. I did also talk to a fellow who has "our" hull style and a Yamaha 70. He said it works fine for his lightish angler, but he still almost wishes he'd got the 90. I didn't get a chance to get many details though. All in all, I'd like a new-design, proportionately light, Yamaha 90 :thup Hurry up, Yamaha.
 
thataway":1s82we47 said:
I understand that the corrosion issue were in older motors, and not aware of these in the latest incarnation of this engine--but if MartyP has some documentation of this I am all ears!

.
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Hi Bob- Well, you're right again. Thanks for clearing that up. I remembered all the problems that Timflan had with his engine on Two Lucky Fish, his last posting being in 2013. . http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=19849

Then I saw that there are 407,000 posts re Suzuki corrosion on the net so there you go. Sorry if I misled anyone..
 
Yes, Tim's motor was a 2005 Johnson (Suzuki) 90. When you look up "Suzuki Corrosion" I get over one million hits, but by the second page, you start picking up things like motorcycle, cars, and nuclear plants. There were a lot of issues, due to a specific plug, which was fixed some time ago. But corrosion has been a real issue in all of the motors, and I suspect it will be cropping up again down the line.
 
I did also talk to a fellow who has "our" hull style and a Yamaha 70. He said it works fine for his lightish angler, but he still almost wishes he'd got the 90. I didn't get a chance to get many details though. All in all, I'd like a new-design, proportionately light, Yamaha 90 :thup Hurry up, Yamaha.[/quote]

No details on cruisng speed and wot performance?

There is no way a F70 would work on some of the 22 cruisers I've looked at, everything from microwaves to hot water systems.

My boat is a light angler with one cooler of ice, an inflatable kayak, 4 rods, 2 people, 2 deck chairs, 2 survival suits, 1 useless dog, 32 gallons of fuel & a 5 gallon jerry of water, two 40lb ditch bags with camping equipment for 2 and redundant anchoring systems (no windlass).

I'm coming from kayaks and a 20 foot open tiller skiff so this is luxourious for me.

The 70 May work fine for me, but I'd hate to make a 7k mistake.
The Suzuki df90a would probably be the safe bet, but it'll cost me more than the boat did.

Closecall
 
Closecall":1x5mb1ns said:
No details on cruisng speed and wot performance?
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No, sadly. Basically a Yamaha mechanic I was visiting mentioned it, and I had a very brief conversation later with the owner. I forget the details, but he was out of town or something (we talked on the phone). IIRC he offered to take me out on the boat, but wasn't going to be back until after I was going to be at Powell (this was in the PNW). However, even though he likes his 70, he didn't necessarily recommend it for me. My boat isn't super heavy, but it's a cruiser and his was a light day fisher.


Closecall":1x5mb1ns said:
The 70 May work fine for me, but I'd hate to make a 7k mistake.
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That was my feeling too. I decided that unless I tried one on a 22 Cruiser, or had detailed information from someone with one, I didn't want to take the chance (although I bet that ~260# on the transom would be nice).

If I were forced to re-power today, I think I'd choose the Yamaha 115, but I'd prefer a re-designed, proportionally lighter, Yamaha 90.

I hope you keep us posted on what you decide and how it works out :thup
 
Lots of good information and discussion here, but I come back to one major driving principle (for me, at least), then decide after that consideration:

There is no substitute for displacement". (='s torque, guts, and grunt.)

And you might be surprised how heavy your boat gets 3-5 or more years down the road (lake).

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
The Suzuki problem has been solved a long time ago.I think we can stop beating that dead horse now. I would not want to underpower a 22 with a 70 . You wont save fuel and your boat will be sluggish at best . You can always pull back the throttle .
The 90 H.P. is a great choice . Whatever brand you have service for and a good dealer locally makes sense .
Marc
 
Marc is right, better to have something throttled back and enjoy cruising at lower RPMs than running at higher (louder) RPMs. In addition, I would venture to say there are two other factors, selling a CD with a 90 is going to be easier than 70. I just purchased a Yamaha that has corrosion issues as well, however there are known fixes out there to resolve what is otherwise considered to be a bulletproof engine. I would elect to repower with what has a solid warranty, good dealer support, and balances economy with performance.
 
Although I think the reason many of us are considering (or have considered even if rejected) the Yamaha 70 is for the greatly reduced weight -- more in line with the original designed motor weight (2-stroke 70).

I spoke with someone who has run a lot of 22's, and he mentioned that running one with a "light' stern (as compared to most of ours today) was a real joy.

So, I considered the 70 for that reason, not to save fuel or etc.

Still, now that a 115hp is down to 377#, I have hope for a 90 closer to 300#. That would be a great balance of hp to weight for me.
 
So I was thinking I'm going to call my Suzuki dealer tomorrow and get the ball rolling on a DF90a and then I found the following at the bottom of the performance tab for 22 anglers on the cdory homepage:

22 angler with 800 lbs of people, fuel and gear:

Single 75 Honda:

2500 rpm = 8.5 mph
3000 rpm = 12.5 mph
3500 rpm = 16.2 mph
4000 rpm = 20.3 mph
4500 rpm = 24.7 mph
5000 rpm = 27.6 mph
5500 rpm = 30.4 mph

That's a 359lb outboard making 5 hp more than the 257 lbs F70 I'm eyeing. Granted it's a 1.5 liter engine vs the 70's 1 liter.

102lbs and 5 hp difference!

I could live with the above performance but just not sure the 70 can do within 1 or 2 mph of the above.

Well I'm hoisting the old main off tomorrow and looking at filling the transom holes so I've got a week to figure out what to do.

Close call
 
There are other brands of outboards than Suz or Yama's.
Have you looked at performance specs on any others??

My original classic 1983 started life with 115 Johnson 2 stroke and now has 90 hp Honda 4 stroke. THe Honda pushes the boat much easier with 1/3 the fuel usage.
 
Closecall":d2w9gcau said:
So I was thinking I'm going to call my Suzuki dealer tomorrow and get the ball rolling on a DF90a and then I found the following at the bottom of the performance tab for 22 anglers on the cdory homepage:

22 angler with 800 lbs of people, fuel and gear:

Single 75 Honda:

2500 rpm = 8.5 mph
3000 rpm = 12.5 mph
3500 rpm = 16.2 mph
4000 rpm = 20.3 mph
4500 rpm = 24.7 mph
5000 rpm = 27.6 mph
5500 rpm = 30.4 mph
<Some deletions>

Close call
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1. If that Table is from a C-Dory factory brochure, it's a very optimistic set of figures taken on a new, still stripped out boat without any extra equipment, and as lightly loaded as possible, etc. Be skeptical.....! It's a sales promo..! Caveat Emptor!

2. Don't over-think this decision into a quagmire of hopeless confusion and inaction.

Even this group as a whole cannot make a unified decision. Too many opinions and variables.

Back off, take a deep breath, let the hot air and endless details settle out, and go with your best overall gut feeling and your assessment of your best local dealer's anticipated service availability.

You want to be very comfortable with whoever your spending ~$10,000 with!

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Listen to what Sea Wolf is saying. The C-dory is a light boat and can get those mileage figures. Until you load it up for a trip. Then those numbers take a dive. We just came back from a trip to Santa Cruz island, off Santa Barbara. The seas were running, we were loaded by Judy who's now an expert on cramming everything into Journey On. Going over, we were struggling to maintain 11 knts at 4000 rpm and got 2 nmpg. Returning, we did 15 knts at 4000 rpm and got 2.3 nmpg. Smoother seas and less weight. And those were good numbers.

Remember, the figures you see on the internet are designed to sell. So they're run with light boats and smooth seas. I've never encountered those conditions.

I believe that of the 4 big outboard motors, they're all good. What's important is the price and dealer. And the care that you give the motor after you buy it.

Boris
 
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