Ooops

Patrick has some good insight.

Keep in mind that these trailers are built as generic trailers to fit a wide variety of boats, and that modifications may need to be made depending on the boat put on the trailer.

We have rolled a lot of Kings out of our shop, and have not seen issues with the winch bracket moving when the bolts are properly tightened and the trailer properly set up. I will be mentioning this thread to our service department to be extra diligent that this bracket is tightened down.

On extremely large boats, or with odd geometry of the bow / winch stand connection, I would add two bolts through the bracket and winch stand.

An additional brace from the winch stand to the frame could be fabricated and installed, and I don't believe that would void any warranty.

Let's not jump to conclusions before this is examined by the adjuster and surveyor to determine what the actual problem is, especially to begin attacking a company that we feel has been responsive to customer issues in the past.

And if someone has not had a problem with their King trailer, don't become worried that you suddenly have a problem. Examine / tighten bolts as needed (part of a regular maintenance program) and don't lose any sleep.
 
A few years ago I noticed this picture of C-Voyager in Oldgrowth Dave's album. Since I have the same model boat and trailer, I copied his use of the bow strap. C_Voyager_2.jpg.

Thanks Dave!!
 
Matt Gurnsey":2s2kfd8w said:
On extremely large boats, or with odd geometry of the bow / winch stand connection, I would add two bolts through the bracket and winch stand.

An additional brace from the winch stand to the frame could be fabricated and installed, and I don't believe that would void any warranty.


And if someone has not had a problem with their King trailer, don't become worried that you suddenly have a problem. Examine / tighten bolts as needed (part of a regular maintenance program) and don't lose any sleep.
Click to expand...

Well Matt, I would have to say that I appreciate the first two comments quoted above and for the boat and trailer involved in this event, both of these fixed modifications would be a good idea. I would also offer, that it would be a service to this community if a dealership like yours would offer a price to do these modifications and or a price to supply a kit of sorts for folks out of your area.

I will take strong exception to your last comment, however. Every owner of that boat and trailer set up has an urgent and proven need to make significant changes and it is just wrong to suggest that folks should continue on under a fog of false security until they find their boats on the road.

Owners should not expect King to jump at the chance to modify its trailer design since this could be viewed as an admission that the old design was (as we all know) inadequate. I expect the first thing they will do is strengthen the limitations of liability and warnings contained in trailer documentation. This is the world we live in after all. Existing owners should lake maters into their own hands and good dealers will do the same thing prior to delivering new boats with the same flawed setup.

This thread has highlighted issues with King and other trailers and the C-Dory 25 as well and those should be addressed.
I will say that my King trailer does not have these issues and is matched well for the C-Dory 22. Even so, I will be adding a heavy strap from the bow eye to a rail point down and forward and for longer trips will add a strap over the cockpit as well.
 
I cannot tell from the general descriptions of various bow stop setups described here how they are actually set up, but the only proper way to set one up is for the winch line (cable, strap etc) to go below the stop. The photo here shows how Notayot and all of my previous boats have been set up, with the winch strap and eye going through the "hole" in the support arm made by the roller and the opening in the arm. This eliminates the possiblity of the boat rising without taking the support with it. This drastically limits the boat motion while underway. It may require adjustment or different parts, but in my opinion, this will eliminate all but actual bending forces on the upright, which of course can occur during hard stops or collision, but then no trailer is designed for collision.


100_7017.jpg


This is a King trailer too (2006 roller double axle), and my stop arm is held to the upright with 4 bolts, not 3. (And yes, we got 7" of snow last night.)
 
Dennis, your set up is an approximate match with mine and I agree that it is proper. For longer trips though, adding a strap from the bow eye down and forward would do no harm and may just help keep everything where it should stay as you go down the road.
 
Capital Sea":153cd1yz said:
I will take strong exception to your last comment, however. Every owner of that boat and trailer set up has an urgent and proven need to make significant changes and it is just wrong to suggest that folks should continue on under a fog of false security until they find their boats on the road.
Click to expand...

The comment was addressed to the gentleman who has a 22 Cruiser and was now very worried about towing it home. While I agree he (and any trailer owner) should inspect the trailer, I don't believe that that he has any real concerns, considering the trailering he has already done.

I will add that we see a lot of misadjusted trailers, and that the photo by Notayot is the way we set up these trailers, with the bow stop directly above the bow eye. This helps lock the boat into place and help prevent it getting forward momentum beyond the trailer's.

If the Bow stop is too high, in an extreme braking situation, the boat can slide forward on the trailer, which can cause things to break and fail. WIth the bow stop at the bow eye, that should keep the boat in position on the trailer.

I don't feel that C-Dory owners should go into panic mode. Prudent inspection, yes, but not panic. Owners of Rosboroughs should obviously be more concerned, but that is not the usual focus of this board.

Also keep in mind that the C-Dory has a different hull shape, weight and other considerations than the boat in this incident. Which is why I await further details before determining what the appropriate response by C-Dory owners should be.

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.
 
A comment on the bow strap from the eye to the frame. When we have done this on boats that the bow eye could not be directly under the bow stop, we have gone from the bow eye aft to the frame.

The reason being, we want to keep the boat from moving forward in an emergency braking situation.

The strap going forward would be useful if the winch were to fail. and prevent the boat from sliding back.
 
Matt, I appreciate your comments. We should all be so lucky as to have a dealer as engaged as you are.
Regarding straps, I see your point, though in my case, with the proper set up, adding a redundant strap is intended to hold the bow eye against the roller/stop and take some stress from bouncing off of the roller. I have twice started out with the eye tight to the roller only to find it two inches back when I stop for gas. It could be that the rachet has given up ground but I doubt it. What I think is occurring is the cloth strap is growing more tight around the drum due to being yanked on. So by placing the strap forward, my intent is to prevent any bounce and eliminate what I would call the yank effect. This is not a civil war reference.
 
Matt,

Thanks for your comments and concern on this thread.

The Brat with the trailering concern is Pat Anderson and he has a CD-25, not a CD-22.
 
Again, I should not trust my memory. :(

It does seem that in towing the C-Dories (C-Dori?) that there is more movement of the boat on the trailer than some other similar sized boats. This may be a weight issue, or hull shape, or who knows.

Redundancy is a good thing, and I thing straps going for and aft would not be a horrible expensive addition, that would give an extra margin of safety.

Funny that we were just in our shop talking about a 27 Shamrock and the trailer set up, and for a boat that size and weight, the typical 2" straps are not enough to stop the boat in a severe maneuver. As weight goes up, bigger is better.

I'll also note that anytime a towed rig does an emergency stop, the trailer should be checked to be sure things don't get moved around. The bigger boats are pushing around a fair amount of weight.

One way to keep an eye on things would be to draw a line along a bracket's edge on the frame rail with a permanent marker. If anything shifts, the line will become more visible. Don't draw the lines until you are sure everything is set up correctly.

Hope this helps. It's a little slow today at the office with the snowfall last night, so I've had some time to pound the keyboard! I think the one good thing about all of this is that all of us will be more aware of our trailers, and give them a little extra attention in our checks of our rigs.
 
A general comment about trailering; We stop every two hours religiously and do a "walk around" the trailer. This includes a temp measurement of each axle hub, temp of each tire, looking at the fender and tire clearance, hitch, safety chains, straps and all bolts. Each morning we check all of the bolts before we start off, as well as check tire pressure.

Merv makes a good point about not strapping down too much--but I still prefer chains for the front safety down to an eye bolt. straps are more likely to chafe and may not take the same amount of load. The loads of the eye bolt are in different planes, so I am not sure that a strap from the winch, from aft and forward on the trailer frame may not be appropiate. As noted before, I prefer a shackle over an "S" hook, forged hook or carribiner to the tie down chain.

I also agree with Matt's point about both the geometry of the C Dory hull and perhaps the center of gravity being different than the Rosborough.
 
Since there haven't been a lot of photos posted, here are a few more to help people visualize two of the things discussed in this thread; the bow eye tie down and the transom tie down. You will notice some deficiencies, which I will describe. These photos are from my CD25 with King trailor.

strap_right.sized.jpg


strap_left.sized.jpg


Note here that the chain and the strap are attached with S hooks. Spring hooks or screw shackles would be better. However, there are four hooks attached to the bow eye, and space is limited which might affect what one can use.

Second item: The strap is too light weight at two inches diameter and it is secured with a cam buckle. Is this buckle different than the ratchet type buckle that has been mentioned previously? Another thing: Perhaps the chain should be attached tightly without any slack with a turn buckle.

Transom:
transon_left.sized.jpg


transon_right.sized.jpg


Problems: same issues with the S hooks and light weight straps.
Any comments would be appreciated.
 
Jay,
The chain on your boat--and many others is mainly to keep the boat from slipping aft off the trailer, not from coming forward or upward. It has to be fairly loose to allow attatching, but could be tighter. The turn buckle would be a chain pulling straight down, or one slightly forward and one slightly aft. I would want a high tensile strength chain not a welded link chain as shown (which most trailers have).

One large "D" screw pin shackle can allow several smaller shackles to attatch to a single bow eye.

the ratchet strap is much stronger attatchment points, with multiple wraps around a core, and double bars which keep the ratchet from slipping. (But it can fail). Good idea to have two. (we have 3 for hurricane tie down).
 
OK, today's the day Daydream comes home from the boat electrician. Plan will be to try to get the winch arm up where it belongs and tighten the nuts, and to try to run a strap from the bow eye down to the trailer frame. So, is this strap a NAPA item or a West Marine item? What length would you buy? We of course have the safety chain. We also have a big strap across the motorwell, and that is about it. Motors will be UP. Later I will check with a welding shop about a brace for the winch arm...Anything else I should consider for today, just really for the trip home?
 
Pat,

Tie down straps can be found at a wide variety of locations - auto part's stores (like Schucks), RV outlets, West Marine, and hardware stores. If you buy the ratcheting kind, they can be tightened quite well. Make sure that you get ones that will handle the expected load (most are rated in lb's). I can't hurt to buy heavier duty than you think you will need. As for length, buy longer than what you think you will need. You can cut them down and flame seal the end like you might for some kinds of line.
 
Pat,

Home Depot has many different kinds of ratcheting and cam tiedown straps including really heavy duty ones used by truckers. The latter as I recall are rated to about 20,000lbs and should be way overkill but make you comfortable as the tiedown from the towing loop on the front of Daydream. There are also slightly less muscular ones that ratchet and would probably be quite adequate. They are in the hardware dept. by the rope, chains, etc. I'd get the longest one available, they are nylon and very easily shortened.
 
Merv,

None with pelican hooks, some have doubled steel hooks that are pretty strong but right next to them are the kind of carabiners that you unscrew to connect and then thread back together. Those are very strong and stainless is rated for more weight that the regular ones. If I wanted a connection that is pretty much bulletproof and stonger than even a pelican hook I'd use those. Just make sure you get a large one as the opening when unscrewed is not overly large and you need to fit the bow towing loop through that. I don't think you could use an anchor shackle as the space for the shackle pin is only about 1/2 inch wide and the nylon strap wouldn't fit through. As for me, I need to remember that this is my backup system and not go overboard. No matter what system we come up with it will always have a weak point so at some point one has to say enough.

One thing about nylon straps; if you have them under much tension, it is a very good idea to stop after an hour of travel or so and check them because the inherent stretch in nylon may have loosened them. I've had to do that but never twice as the initial stretch seems to max out quickly.
 
Barry,

Thanks. Sounds like the one I already used with double steel hook.

Also that is the sort of carabiner I used to shorten up the safety chain. It works well but you have to keep it clean and lubed.

I think I will be changing the safety chain to Hi-Test with a carabiner as the "last resort". Putting two bow straps (or chain) going aft on one carabiner for anti-bounce and "go foreward" limit stops plus two new ratchet ties on the stern which will add some fore/aft and provide sideways restraint.

In the end you can only deal with things up to the level of an emergency stop. If you hit something it's going to be a big mess anyway.

Merv
 
As Barry on C-Cakes mentions there are heavy duty tiedowns, for use by truckers and people hauling heavy loads. The tiedowns in several earlier pictures appear to be light duty tiedowns, similar to the ones I use on the kayak. If one is using tiedowns to hold the boat in an emergency, only the trucker tiedowns should be used. The others, as Grumpy found out, will not hold a 7000# boat when it decides to move.

Here's a web site which has 4" CHP approved ratchet tiedowns:

Tiedown

Boris
 
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