older c-dory
- Thread starter retfish
- Start date
The '88 should be very well built, as is my '87.
It will feature:
1. Teak cabin top and bulkhead handholds rather than stainless tubes. Though they require occasional refinishing, the teak handles are larger, safer, and are better and more nautical looking as well.
2. A wooden (Decagard) cabin door, rather than plastic or glass.
3. Interior cabinetry of Decagard (3/4" marine plywood surfaced in wood-grain Formica), rather than molded fiberglass. (Easier to modify and customize.)
4. The center cockpit window will be fixed, rather than openable, though that can be changed.
5. The cockpit floor will be the inside of the 1-1/2" thick hull itself, rather than the raised floor inserts of considerably later models. Many of us prefer standing {down) on this rather than (up) on the raised floor, as you feel more secure with your center of mass lower in the boat in rough weather.
6. The lazarette doors are different, and, though very adequate, do not seal as well as later models. If this is a problem, they can be changed out easily. Several threads on this.
7. The gas tanks will be 18 gallons each. In later boats, these were changed in stages from 20 to 25 gallons each. You'll rely on gas gauges to determine the fuel levels. Later tanks are translucent, and can be read visually.
8. Later editions were available with optional raised cabin tops called High-Top models that featured 4-6" of extra headroom inside. Nice if you're 6'-2'' or taller. I like the looks of the lower cabin top better, aesthetically, however, because the high top looks bulged out in proportion to rest of the boat.
9. Later models were first available then came standard with a reversible front passenger seat. TyBoo Mike developed this, and then the factory copied it, adding at first as an option, then making it standard equipment. It's a fun modification project that can be done to an older model.
10. Hull shape is unchanged since 1987, a testament to its design quality and correctness.
11. I've owned mine since '98, and have not found any manufacturing or structural flaws yet, which speaks for the quality of these 1987-1990 models.
That's it for now!
Good Luck!
Joe. :teeth :thup
It will feature:
1. Teak cabin top and bulkhead handholds rather than stainless tubes. Though they require occasional refinishing, the teak handles are larger, safer, and are better and more nautical looking as well.
2. A wooden (Decagard) cabin door, rather than plastic or glass.
3. Interior cabinetry of Decagard (3/4" marine plywood surfaced in wood-grain Formica), rather than molded fiberglass. (Easier to modify and customize.)
4. The center cockpit window will be fixed, rather than openable, though that can be changed.
5. The cockpit floor will be the inside of the 1-1/2" thick hull itself, rather than the raised floor inserts of considerably later models. Many of us prefer standing {down) on this rather than (up) on the raised floor, as you feel more secure with your center of mass lower in the boat in rough weather.
6. The lazarette doors are different, and, though very adequate, do not seal as well as later models. If this is a problem, they can be changed out easily. Several threads on this.
7. The gas tanks will be 18 gallons each. In later boats, these were changed in stages from 20 to 25 gallons each. You'll rely on gas gauges to determine the fuel levels. Later tanks are translucent, and can be read visually.
8. Later editions were available with optional raised cabin tops called High-Top models that featured 4-6" of extra headroom inside. Nice if you're 6'-2'' or taller. I like the looks of the lower cabin top better, aesthetically, however, because the high top looks bulged out in proportion to rest of the boat.
9. Later models were first available then came standard with a reversible front passenger seat. TyBoo Mike developed this, and then the factory copied it, adding at first as an option, then making it standard equipment. It's a fun modification project that can be done to an older model.
10. Hull shape is unchanged since 1987, a testament to its design quality and correctness.
11. I've owned mine since '98, and have not found any manufacturing or structural flaws yet, which speaks for the quality of these 1987-1990 models.
That's it for now!
Good Luck!
Joe. :teeth :thup
Sea Wolf":3hb96wbf said:
Just curious what changed in 1991?
One other note on the boats up to around sometime in the early 90's (not sure when this changed, but sometime after 1990) is that the window frames are a bit different. Cosmetically, they are silver (aluminum colored) vs. white. Functionally, the two big side windows don't have the added track that has the sliding screen in it, if that's something that matters to you. There is also a "larger" rubber molding piece on the outside that can deteriorate, but some people have found new ones that will fit in its place. It's just something I noticed when I looked at a 1990 boat and then researched the windows while I was considering that boat.
But basically, I'd say it's just a long series of minor changes (from 1987 through the current day). Some of them may be improvements to you, and some may not be. Mostly it's a matter of taste. My main feeling is that with a used boat (presuming the basic design is what you want) it's all about condition. The older the boat, the more chances its had to either be maintained superbly, half-heartedly, or not at all (or somewhere in between).
When I was shopping I looked at quite a few 22's, from many different years, and I didn't notice any fundamentally better or worse built boats. What I did notice is three things:
1) Condition
2) How the boat was rigged and outfitted (gear, engine, electrical, etc.)
3) Which set of evolving detail changes I liked vs. which ones I preferred an older/different detail (this covers many things, from the cockpit sole, to the interior cabinetry, to the cockpit side pockets, and on and on). I don't know that I could say across the board that any were "best," but more just individual preference.
I found the early 2000's to be my "sweet spot" in terms of feature changes that I liked. But I looked at a 2009 and would likely have bought it if it hadn't been a high top (I wanted a regular top). There were some "improvements" by 2009 that I didn't care for; but then there were also some improvements that I did like (detail/features, not basic build). I also looked at a 1990 that I would happily have bought except for a couple of "non-build" (outfitting) and condition things I didn't care for. But the basic boat would have suited me just fine.
As to your question about what has changed (from 1988 to the present), it's not the basic hull or cabin shape, and I can't think of any major "structural" changes (just a few minor ones); but there have been a LOT of "detail" changes over the years, so it would be a huge post to try to list them all. There are threads that contain a good bit of this information, if you were to search for them (things like "changes years" or something like that). My feeling is - as noted above - that whether or not one likes these changes is a matter of personal taste. I can't really think of anything that has made the boat better in an absolute sense. My guess is that most owners would find many of these detail changes they like in their boat; but if they had a magic wand they might change some of them to details from other years. Just personal taste. Like maybe someone likes the fixed/raised cockpit sole that came in around 2007, but they might like the larger cockpit side storage compartments from earlier boats. Or maybe they like the raised lip fiberglass lazarettes from the mid-90's, but then they like the fiberglass interior furniture that started in the late 2000's. Or they just buy the boat that comes up when they are looking, is in the condition they want, and go with whatever mix of features it has. That's likely most common.
Sunbeam":3k6cad4y said:
Sunbeam- Nice post, good thinking.
As to your question, I just wasn't sure how far to extend the comment about the early years models forward, so just stopped randomly at 1990.
I should have said
".... which speaks for the quality of these 1987- to somewhat later models."
This still seems to imply that the later models featured some faults upon occasion, but if you've been reading the comments about the entire production period from about 1981 to the present, a few of the many manufacturers had occasional quality control problems.
And no, I don't have a list of all of those dated and specified in my head, just a general observation reading the threads over the years. This observation is also probably influenced by my own bias toward my own boat and my positive experiences with it.
Take Care!
Joe. :teeth :thup
There is one change in the well between the V berths between 1993, and 2006--I don't know what year. The newer boats have the porti potty set further forward, and the filler over it, is also further forward, with a enough room to put your derrière on and makes access onto the bunk easier--at least for us big guys.
Our 1993 had an "ice box" under the helm seat. It was worthless--We used it for dry storage--but the 2006 boat has a nice two shelf storage locker under the helm seat far better.
Also there are some "customizations" that prior owners have done, which are good, and some not so good. I prefer a boat which has had no customization, and then I can do my own thing..be it good or bad.
Also there is the fiberglass molded interior, which replaced the DecraGuard (correct spelling, and link) plywood. (I always have trouble finding the link and the spelling. But it is still available) The overlay is polyester, not "Formica"--I had also thought that it was a from of Melamine, but it is not. My personal feeling is that the DecraGuard is easier to modify than fiberglass.
These are all minor issues, and Joe hit the major ones.
Our 1993 had an "ice box" under the helm seat. It was worthless--We used it for dry storage--but the 2006 boat has a nice two shelf storage locker under the helm seat far better.
Also there are some "customizations" that prior owners have done, which are good, and some not so good. I prefer a boat which has had no customization, and then I can do my own thing..be it good or bad.
Also there is the fiberglass molded interior, which replaced the DecraGuard (correct spelling, and link) plywood. (I always have trouble finding the link and the spelling. But it is still available) The overlay is polyester, not "Formica"--I had also thought that it was a from of Melamine, but it is not. My personal feeling is that the DecraGuard is easier to modify than fiberglass.
These are all minor issues, and Joe hit the major ones.
thataway":eackycbv said:
Oh man! Right on about that ice box. I have a 1993 and I really love that vintage but that ice box is code: no joy. I actually tried to use it, even with dry ice. Worthless. I'll remove it eventually when I repair and improve our decraguard (thanks Dr. Bob!) cabinets. I agree that these are easy to modify and customize, but I'm not too happy with the general construction of the decraguard interior. The pieces are all well cut and fit, but the entire rig is held together by angle irons, not a through fastener. I also am dealing with the disintegration of the material down low where it gets wet often.
I bought our boat with a legacy leak in the stove pipe, evidenced by about two dozen discreet layers of 5200 piled one on top of the other in a consistent, but unfruitful attempt to hold back the tide. I've since had the roof modified to have the stove pipe exit through a slightly elevated area. It works great, but the cabinets got wet, and now leave debris on the companionway whenever touched.
So, while the decraguard is more flexible, the FG interiors might have longevity benefits if mistreated.
Kushtaka":3jh5i7jf said:
The "easy solution" to the angle irons is to tab the interior together with glass cloth and epoxy--quick and easy to do, then remove the angles. But it is amazing how well the boats do hold together (in lack of water intrusion). Even the 25 that I had which had been abused, had a solid DecraGuard interior.
I've never had any problem with the DecraGuard interior or the angle iron brackets, but then, I've never had any water inside the boat, either, thanks to inland lake use, dry storage and/or covered berth moorage.
Another difference in the CD-22's from 1987 onward is in the bilge water removal system. All of the boats have had bilge wells in the rear of the boat next to the transom to remove bilge water.
However, there is a problem with bilge water accumulating when the boat is at rest due to the rocker (curvature) of the boat from fore to aft. The lowest point in the resting boat's cockpit is at the front of the cockpit by the cabin door, not back at the transom.
Thus, rain water or water that has come in otherwise collects in the boat at rest up next to the cabin door, and cannot be removed by the bilge pump in the rear without getting under way, usually requiring full plane to completely get it all back to the pump.
Moored boats that sit out in the rain must have a cockpit cover or some other means to deal with this problem. Otherwise, finding your boat with 6 inches or more of water in the cockpit is a real likelihood.
Most early solutions utilizing a pump to remove the water used an additional bilge pump centered just inside the doorway, and later ones moved the pump over into the galley cabinet to get the pump and it's catch basin out of the way of foot traffic.
Both these forward bilge pump solutions worked, but a later solution was to add floor boards in the cockpit, the later versions of which were sealed at the edges to force the water to the rear to the waiting main bilge pump.
Which of these solutions you may prefer may be a matter of individual choice based on your intended boat use pattern, but may well not be the main deciding factor in choosing one model over another.
Joe. :teeth :thup
Another difference in the CD-22's from 1987 onward is in the bilge water removal system. All of the boats have had bilge wells in the rear of the boat next to the transom to remove bilge water.
However, there is a problem with bilge water accumulating when the boat is at rest due to the rocker (curvature) of the boat from fore to aft. The lowest point in the resting boat's cockpit is at the front of the cockpit by the cabin door, not back at the transom.
Thus, rain water or water that has come in otherwise collects in the boat at rest up next to the cabin door, and cannot be removed by the bilge pump in the rear without getting under way, usually requiring full plane to completely get it all back to the pump.
Moored boats that sit out in the rain must have a cockpit cover or some other means to deal with this problem. Otherwise, finding your boat with 6 inches or more of water in the cockpit is a real likelihood.
Most early solutions utilizing a pump to remove the water used an additional bilge pump centered just inside the doorway, and later ones moved the pump over into the galley cabinet to get the pump and it's catch basin out of the way of foot traffic.
Both these forward bilge pump solutions worked, but a later solution was to add floor boards in the cockpit, the later versions of which were sealed at the edges to force the water to the rear to the waiting main bilge pump.
Which of these solutions you may prefer may be a matter of individual choice based on your intended boat use pattern, but may well not be the main deciding factor in choosing one model over another.
Joe. :teeth :thup
Sea Wolf":2jzc1zdz said:
My '08 22 cruiser has the flat floor in the cockpit. Originally water could run into the gap between the flat floor and the aft cabin wall. This led to water intrusion into the cabin. With the addition of the flat floor, the bilge pump that was at the back of the main cabin (under the step at the door) was removed. Any water that got in the cabin had to be manually removed.
The PO sealed the gap between the floor and the cabin with 3M 5200 to stop leaking.
Recently we were out overnight when there was a good rainstorm (same storm that flooded Ellicott City, MD). In the morning there was about two inches of standing water in the cockpit up by the cabin wall (due to boat loading over night, 2 people in the berth). I had to stand on the swim step and sort of bounce up and down to get the water to the bilge pump back under the motor.
ssobol":3n41szlj said:
Ssobol-
Sorry you had so much trouble!
This problem and the various solutions have been a work in progress seemingly forever!
I'm not really sure how perfect any of the solutions have really been, either!
Just something inherent in the basic design without an easy fix, as demonstrated.
Take Care!
Joe. :teeth :thup
Most early solutions utilizing a pump to remove the water used an additional bilge pump centered just inside the doorway, and later ones moved the pump over into the galley cabinet to get the pump and it's catch basin out of the way of foot traffic.
How does this work if the bilge pump is inside the cabin and the water is outside in cockpit?
Do you know what the factory set up for your 87 was w respect to bilge pump?
How does this work if the bilge pump is inside the cabin and the water is outside in cockpit?
Do you know what the factory set up for your 87 was w respect to bilge pump?
homerjack":4espkt7q said:
Two of the later iterations had the pump just ahead of the cabin bulkhead inside the boat. First under the galley and then in the passageway in a little compartment.
In both cases a "slit" was formed in the fiberglass to allow water to flow into the sump/compartment where the bilge pump sat. this compartment had fiberglass walls high enough that water could not go over them. I think I have a photo of mine - will come back and post if so.
Okay, here is a photo of the "sump" in my boat - this is the version that is under the galley. The one in the passageway (centerline of boat just inside door) is similar but is covered by a little wooden "step" so you don't see it.
By the way, I later answered my question: The hull core is completely closed out here. It has been removed (when built) and completely glassed around. This makes the sump around an inch deeper than it would otherwise be. And the bulkhead core ends where the bulge ends, so that is closed out as well.
A little hard to see in this photo due to the Dri-deck, but the dark area is a molded in "slit" that allows water to flow into the sump pictured above. It is flush with the cockpit surface. This is doable because the core was removed in this area during the build, hence making a deeper place possible.
Here're a couple of photos (not my boat) of the passageway version of the sump. I believe it has the same type of "slit" leading in from the cockpit to allow the water into it as the under-galley one does.
Overview. The actual sump is a fiberglass "dish" inside this wooden step/Starboard™ lid.
Inside the step:
Overview. The actual sump is a fiberglass "dish" inside this wooden step/Starboard™ lid.
Inside the step:
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Hmmmm, a Springer Spaniel, Cabernet uhpolstry, almost looks like my boat. Wait, that is my boat, and the famous "Weaselchester" boat dog.
Thanks for great pics. Very strange, my 88 has neither type of forward bilge arrangement. Best I can tell previous owner rigged up an RV water pump in galley and ran a hose with pick up to outside corner of cockpit just other side of cabin wall. Trouble is those pumps have to have water in them to work.
homerjack":st5phe2p said:
I don't know when they first moved that "bilge" into the cabin, but I have seen a number of the earlier 22's ('87 to....?) that simply had a pump in the cockpit up against the galley bulkhead and then a strum box by the door (outside) at the deepest point. Sometimes I've seen a metal box over the pump there ("no step"). That may have been an owner addition.
Just didn't want you to think your boat was an odd anomaly or something. Just one of the many ways they've done it over the years.
By the way, if you took a notion to add one, the album for the 22 "Foggy Dew" has a photo essay on moving the bilge sump to the center area just inside the door.
IMO though none of the ways are perfect. It's just the nature of the dory shape in a boat that is large enough to have an enclosed cabin, but not really big enough to have a true self-draining cockpit.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Sunbeam":1zlnmmlt said:Thanks for letting me know that was your boat (and your Weaselchester) . I should have made a note back when I saved that photo (was interested in the sump arrangement).
The now past spaniel was really named Winchester, but we started calling him Weasel because of some of his idiosyncrasies. Even our vet knew him as Weasel. Quite a love bug, but a strange little guy.
journey on
New member
Hey, Joe, do you think that your year is the best year?
I read your summary and thought wow, that guy found the right boat.
Boris
I read your summary and thought wow, that guy found the right boat.
Boris