Captains Cat
New member
patrick and linda":1bbi0ggj said:
I was NOT. I don't have a political bone in my head... :roll:
Nordic Tug furloughs workforce
- Thread starter Doryman
- Start date
I was NOT. I don't have a political bone in my head... :roll:
Matt Gurnsey
New member
Here's something that's been rattling around in my brain for awhile-
C-Dory
Arima
Nordic Tug
All of these companies have had sales tumble.
One common demoninator among them is that they haven't changed much (if at all) since their introduction. A late 1980's C-Dory looks like a new 2010 C-Dory. Some minor trim modifications, and interrior components are slightly different, but the hull mold is unchanged. Even the stripes are unchanged!
Same for Arima. They have changed color schemes slightly, and went to starboard panels in the boat instead of decaguard, but otherwise the 1985 we sold last month looks exactly like the 2001 we have listed right now.
So- are these companies struggling because buyers can buy almost the exact same boat as their new offereing, for a whole lot less when buying used? And a well cared for 26 (or 32) Nordic Tug looks just like a brand new one, but for half the price.
In other words- are there a limited number of buyers for a Nordic Tug, and have they reached the point of market saturation.
Same with C-Dory. I understand that the best year C-Dory sold something like 30+ boats at the Seattle Boat Show. Last year we sold one or two. Sure there are a ton of factors affecting the marketplace right now, but part of me wonders if most of the people wanting a 22 Cruiser already have one, or will snap up one of the used ones as they become available.
If there are 1000 people who would be C-Dory 22 Owners (owners, not buyers), and there are 990 of that model in the marketplace, then how many new boats could be sold?
That 1000 owner number is just a number for discussion purposes. But when you consider that every year a certain number of people will sell their 22 Cruiser (moving up, getting out of boating, death, lifestyle change) and a certain number of people moving into ownership of a 22 Cruiser, there will be an overlap of the two groups.
Which leaves people who want to own new and won't consider used of any year or condition, or those that can't find used because demand outstrips supply as possible buyers of new 22 Cruisers.
Since sales are so slow, I have to assume supply is greater than demand, and since there is no great reason for the current owner of a 22 Cruiser to move up to the "new" model, sales are stagnant.
Say what you will about Brunswick, but the owner of a 15 year old 28' Bayliner or Sea Ray looks at the new boats and sees numerous changes in decor, style and layout, as well as engine technology upgrades, and Brunswick may be able to get some of those owners to move up to newer boats.
Anyway, that's my thinking right now as to some of the forces that will restrict C-Dory, and Nordic Tug and Arima sales for the forseeable future.
C-Dory
Arima
Nordic Tug
All of these companies have had sales tumble.
One common demoninator among them is that they haven't changed much (if at all) since their introduction. A late 1980's C-Dory looks like a new 2010 C-Dory. Some minor trim modifications, and interrior components are slightly different, but the hull mold is unchanged. Even the stripes are unchanged!
Same for Arima. They have changed color schemes slightly, and went to starboard panels in the boat instead of decaguard, but otherwise the 1985 we sold last month looks exactly like the 2001 we have listed right now.
So- are these companies struggling because buyers can buy almost the exact same boat as their new offereing, for a whole lot less when buying used? And a well cared for 26 (or 32) Nordic Tug looks just like a brand new one, but for half the price.
In other words- are there a limited number of buyers for a Nordic Tug, and have they reached the point of market saturation.
Same with C-Dory. I understand that the best year C-Dory sold something like 30+ boats at the Seattle Boat Show. Last year we sold one or two. Sure there are a ton of factors affecting the marketplace right now, but part of me wonders if most of the people wanting a 22 Cruiser already have one, or will snap up one of the used ones as they become available.
If there are 1000 people who would be C-Dory 22 Owners (owners, not buyers), and there are 990 of that model in the marketplace, then how many new boats could be sold?
That 1000 owner number is just a number for discussion purposes. But when you consider that every year a certain number of people will sell their 22 Cruiser (moving up, getting out of boating, death, lifestyle change) and a certain number of people moving into ownership of a 22 Cruiser, there will be an overlap of the two groups.
Which leaves people who want to own new and won't consider used of any year or condition, or those that can't find used because demand outstrips supply as possible buyers of new 22 Cruisers.
Since sales are so slow, I have to assume supply is greater than demand, and since there is no great reason for the current owner of a 22 Cruiser to move up to the "new" model, sales are stagnant.
Say what you will about Brunswick, but the owner of a 15 year old 28' Bayliner or Sea Ray looks at the new boats and sees numerous changes in decor, style and layout, as well as engine technology upgrades, and Brunswick may be able to get some of those owners to move up to newer boats.
Anyway, that's my thinking right now as to some of the forces that will restrict C-Dory, and Nordic Tug and Arima sales for the forseeable future.
Matt,
I think you are pretty much correct in your thinking. Used C-dory's don't stay on the market for long. I would just as soon purchase used and repower if necessary. When I see another C-dory I have no idea what year it is and could care less. The auto industry makes major changes every three years. But even yearly they might change the grill or headlights. Even the VW Bug had changes during their production in the 50s through 70s. I see no reason to sell my boat for a new model. It doesn't leak!
I think you are pretty much correct in your thinking. Used C-dory's don't stay on the market for long. I would just as soon purchase used and repower if necessary. When I see another C-dory I have no idea what year it is and could care less. The auto industry makes major changes every three years. But even yearly they might change the grill or headlights. Even the VW Bug had changes during their production in the 50s through 70s. I see no reason to sell my boat for a new model. It doesn't leak!
Matt,
I think you're on to something that, like a lot of good ideas, has already been discovered by a previous generation of boat builders.
I read an article quoting "Tolly" Tollefson who built the Tollycraft line of boats for over 40 years. He said that he really put himself out of business, because he built many popular boats that were stout and didn't change much over the years. There were too many 26's made and that someone could buy a good used Tolly 26 for much less than he could build a new one.
This cycle has been seen before, and it will take a while before the supply and demand balance out.
Lyle
I think you're on to something that, like a lot of good ideas, has already been discovered by a previous generation of boat builders.
I read an article quoting "Tolly" Tollefson who built the Tollycraft line of boats for over 40 years. He said that he really put himself out of business, because he built many popular boats that were stout and didn't change much over the years. There were too many 26's made and that someone could buy a good used Tolly 26 for much less than he could build a new one.
This cycle has been seen before, and it will take a while before the supply and demand balance out.
Lyle
Matt raised the point of minimal Nordic Tug changes over the years. Having owned an NT32 and an NT37, they actually made some very significant changes over the years, much more than C-Dory made in the comparable time period. I know of a number of people who were repeat owners of NT32s or of NT37s which is an indicator of the level of change. I think that Nordic Tugs problems are a bit different. They never found a way to continue the NT26 and took the same route as Grand Banks in abandoning their smaller boats as their fleet size crept upwards. That allowed Ranger to fill that vacuum and doomed NT when it finally decided to reintroduce the NT26. The end result was that their feeder boat was an NT32 which was not a cheap boat. They spent a lot of money at the wrong time in the economic cycle on the NT54 and then on the NT49 and, I would bet, never recovered those model start up costs from sales. Long and short of it is that they unfortunately were not well prepared for the sales downturn which has hit them and all builders hard.
I watch the boating space very closely and it seems to me that there are 3 types of builders who will survive. The big boys like SeaRay who can crunch down on costs and units while still addressing what market there is. Their world will be different but they are in a different class than the smaller builders. The smaller shops who just concentrated on the recreational market and whose overhead and facilities cannot be supported by sales are in trouble. Nordic Tug certainly falls in the category. The jury is still out on C-Dory. Those that will certainly make it are those that are nimble in one way or another. Recreational lines and commercial lines (Rosborough) or a series of boats exquisitly tailored to the market (Ranger) esppecially coupled with a unique support of and rapport with its customer base who completely understands that its customers are its extended sales force (think Jeff Mesmer) or those that do new build and major rebuild. Nordic Tug tried to reposition itself into this space but it did not make it. The one that comes to mind here is Zimmerman Marine on the east coast. It runs a marina with major repair and rebuild services and builds new boats as it sells them on a custom basis. All will have to be lean and nimble to survive. Run of the mill builders without an exceptional product and without customer service will suffer.
I disagree that the market for C-Dorys is saturated. The first day I launched mine this year in June, I had two families turn off the road because they saw my boat and both were quite sure it was a C-Dory and wanted to see it. I told both about the C-Brats and one said, "Yup, I read the site regularly." The attention my boat gets tells me that there is pent up demand. In these economic times, people may delay their dreams and also, may well downsize their dreams. Lots of people want to go cruising. When they realize that they do not want the expense of larger boats like Nordic Tugs and think about the reduced costs due to trailering, boats like the C-Dory, Ranger Tug and Rosborough are attractive options to those who originally set their sights on larger boats. Couple that with all of us ambassadors for small cruising powerboats. People are amazed when they hear what we do and the relatively (all things are relative) modest cost. That gets people thinking. Dreams become achievable when people revisit their criteria as this recession is forcing people to do. I have probably talked seriously to 30 people this year about our decision to downsize and the fact that we will be able to do everything that we did in larger boats and more and at a vastly reduced cost. We are having a ton of fun with small trailerable boat cruising and it is letting us do things that were not even a remote possibility with larger boats. I am not unique. Each of us talks to people at the dock and is enthusiastic about what we are doing. I can't tell you how many of the 30 people with whom I have had serious talks will act on things but I am pretty sure the number will be higher than zero. The level and intensity of interest I find convinces me that the market is not saturated. Builders have to figure out a way to tap that market which requires a very different approach than in the past 15 years where they could just pump out boats and let the dealers worry about selling them. Good dealers are also a key piece of the equation but they cannot expect the dealer to stock large numbers of boats. There has to be a rebalancing of the dealer/builder relationship.
Finally, an aging population in or approaching retirement with reduced circumstances but dreams that remain will look for a way to achieve those dreams.
Just my 2 cents based on a lot of talk with people and observations.
I watch the boating space very closely and it seems to me that there are 3 types of builders who will survive. The big boys like SeaRay who can crunch down on costs and units while still addressing what market there is. Their world will be different but they are in a different class than the smaller builders. The smaller shops who just concentrated on the recreational market and whose overhead and facilities cannot be supported by sales are in trouble. Nordic Tug certainly falls in the category. The jury is still out on C-Dory. Those that will certainly make it are those that are nimble in one way or another. Recreational lines and commercial lines (Rosborough) or a series of boats exquisitly tailored to the market (Ranger) esppecially coupled with a unique support of and rapport with its customer base who completely understands that its customers are its extended sales force (think Jeff Mesmer) or those that do new build and major rebuild. Nordic Tug tried to reposition itself into this space but it did not make it. The one that comes to mind here is Zimmerman Marine on the east coast. It runs a marina with major repair and rebuild services and builds new boats as it sells them on a custom basis. All will have to be lean and nimble to survive. Run of the mill builders without an exceptional product and without customer service will suffer.
I disagree that the market for C-Dorys is saturated. The first day I launched mine this year in June, I had two families turn off the road because they saw my boat and both were quite sure it was a C-Dory and wanted to see it. I told both about the C-Brats and one said, "Yup, I read the site regularly." The attention my boat gets tells me that there is pent up demand. In these economic times, people may delay their dreams and also, may well downsize their dreams. Lots of people want to go cruising. When they realize that they do not want the expense of larger boats like Nordic Tugs and think about the reduced costs due to trailering, boats like the C-Dory, Ranger Tug and Rosborough are attractive options to those who originally set their sights on larger boats. Couple that with all of us ambassadors for small cruising powerboats. People are amazed when they hear what we do and the relatively (all things are relative) modest cost. That gets people thinking. Dreams become achievable when people revisit their criteria as this recession is forcing people to do. I have probably talked seriously to 30 people this year about our decision to downsize and the fact that we will be able to do everything that we did in larger boats and more and at a vastly reduced cost. We are having a ton of fun with small trailerable boat cruising and it is letting us do things that were not even a remote possibility with larger boats. I am not unique. Each of us talks to people at the dock and is enthusiastic about what we are doing. I can't tell you how many of the 30 people with whom I have had serious talks will act on things but I am pretty sure the number will be higher than zero. The level and intensity of interest I find convinces me that the market is not saturated. Builders have to figure out a way to tap that market which requires a very different approach than in the past 15 years where they could just pump out boats and let the dealers worry about selling them. Good dealers are also a key piece of the equation but they cannot expect the dealer to stock large numbers of boats. There has to be a rebalancing of the dealer/builder relationship.
Finally, an aging population in or approaching retirement with reduced circumstances but dreams that remain will look for a way to achieve those dreams.
Just my 2 cents based on a lot of talk with people and observations.
The charge of any business is to identify their market or their "nitch," and then remain in that nitch recognizing that the world around them may so change that the nitch is no longer viable. VW bug did that for years until changes in technology made the small Japanese imports a better buy. I think Matt is right in that those boats he listed have a defined place and the the market is only so big. A small "nich" manufacturer that recognizes that he has a limited market can do ok as long as he doesn't think he is going to sell hundreds of boats a year. (Unfortunately, if the manufacturer is successful he is subject to a hostile takeover by CEOs whole goal is to sell a lot of boats, not to build a few good boats.)
The trouble with cosmetic changes is that they are often more than cosmetic. Then the product (boat) changes and it is no longer in it's nitch. How much change can a C Dory endure before it's no longer what we think of as a C Dory. I was introduced to C-Dory as the "VW Camper" of boats. That is quite a narrow nitch. I wonder if Triton will continue to built to that nitch or abandon it for some other market segment.
Chuck Raddon,
The trouble with cosmetic changes is that they are often more than cosmetic. Then the product (boat) changes and it is no longer in it's nitch. How much change can a C Dory endure before it's no longer what we think of as a C Dory. I was introduced to C-Dory as the "VW Camper" of boats. That is quite a narrow nitch. I wonder if Triton will continue to built to that nitch or abandon it for some other market segment.
Chuck Raddon,
I don't think the market for C-Dory's is saturated per se based on the relative lack of these boats in many big-time boating areas. The Chesapeake Bay, for instance, doesn't have a C-dory dealer within 200 miles. You'll have to go to NC or Long Island to purchase a new one. There used to be one in Annapolis but they stopped carrying the brand because "ownership kept changing and warranties were lost." To my knowledge C-Dory isn't even represented at the Annapolis Power Boat Show, one of the biggest in the country. The C-Dory would be a great Chesapeake Bay boat.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
I would agree that the lack of dealers in areas that we boat in certainly has an effect on demand. We have unbelievable interest in our boat when we are traveling around. EVERY time we are out on the boat, we have someone stop by to ask questions. We had the Electrical Supervisor for the Erie Canal call us on the radio to inquire about our boat (he was retiring in a few months). We also had a gentleman "find" us along the canal to get dealer info (I gave him Marc's info). And I have many more stories.
I'm sure most are just tire kickers, but the interest level is large.
I'm sure most are just tire kickers, but the interest level is large.
Interesting topic, and it's migrated from the original NordicTug lay-off thread to a broader discussion of the recreational boating industry in these economic Times. ...quite interesting.
I thought the previous comments were very informed and they clearly speak the marking/sales lingo; I don't.
Recreational boating probably comes in a variety of flavors, but from my perspective you'll find those who are drawn to the sleek and sexy, and those who are drawn to the salty and seaworthy. I'll let you decide which boat appeals to which group. The first group finds interest in casino's and yacht clubs - the second group seems to enjoy book shops and boat stores. It's just the way folks are - different.
As for Matt's comment about C-Dory's looking the same now as they did twenty years ago, I think you have to recognize those who populate your Market. SeaRay sales gain new appeal if they change the color of the interior lay-out; that doesn't work for C-Dory's. Bayliner's appear to give the buyer a lot of boat for the money, and have that sleek/sexy look; that doesn't work for C-Dory.
From my perspective, because of who we are, new C-Dory buyer's (or current owner's who are upsizing) need to see substantive refinements in the boat itself. Simply changing the interior colors or the color of the bootstripe won't make a difference; and they'll look at the used market. Actual refinements to the hull that improve performance or fuel mileage WILL make a difference. Improvements garnered from the input of hundreds of current owners WILL make a difference (ie. the Barber Chair). Vessels that are seaworthy, get (even better) fuel mileage, and address buyer's sense of Adventure WILL sell boats.
Making "fluff" changes to a boat only requires the input of a designer. Making changes in the substance of a vessel requires a lot of engineering and field-testing. It's an R&D thing, and it's Expensive. (On that topic - if the current owners of C-Dory aren't corporate-level contributor's to the C-Brat website, they're missing the boat [no pun intended]). The vast majority of C-Brat's are only too willing to share their experiences and perspective, right or wrong - and do it for Free (well, maybe an occasional C-Dory hat). In many cases we'll even finance the modifications (ie. PermaTrims or graphite props) and field test them ourselves. Going through the myriad C-Brat comments must be tedious and time consuming, but we represent a pretty economical R&D Division.
And when it comes to Advertising - C-Brat's are so fanatical about their vessels their boats we actually chum-in folks who are interested, and we Love to talk and show-off our pride and joy's. Is there a C-Brat that hasn't invited a random looky-lou aboard at a gas station, for a quick look-around? I doubt it.
We're a different lot. What moves us is not sleek and sexy; but show me truly improved performance, or a better prop-choice, and I'm your's Forever. There are not hundreds of thousands of us; but we DO represent a viable market (even in these times). But you gotta recognize who we are, what we want, and how to get through to us.
There ... I've gone on too long (but that's my style). I'll leave it to the folks who really know marketing to make it work.
Best,
Casey
I thought the previous comments were very informed and they clearly speak the marking/sales lingo; I don't.
Recreational boating probably comes in a variety of flavors, but from my perspective you'll find those who are drawn to the sleek and sexy, and those who are drawn to the salty and seaworthy. I'll let you decide which boat appeals to which group. The first group finds interest in casino's and yacht clubs - the second group seems to enjoy book shops and boat stores. It's just the way folks are - different.
As for Matt's comment about C-Dory's looking the same now as they did twenty years ago, I think you have to recognize those who populate your Market. SeaRay sales gain new appeal if they change the color of the interior lay-out; that doesn't work for C-Dory's. Bayliner's appear to give the buyer a lot of boat for the money, and have that sleek/sexy look; that doesn't work for C-Dory.
From my perspective, because of who we are, new C-Dory buyer's (or current owner's who are upsizing) need to see substantive refinements in the boat itself. Simply changing the interior colors or the color of the bootstripe won't make a difference; and they'll look at the used market. Actual refinements to the hull that improve performance or fuel mileage WILL make a difference. Improvements garnered from the input of hundreds of current owners WILL make a difference (ie. the Barber Chair). Vessels that are seaworthy, get (even better) fuel mileage, and address buyer's sense of Adventure WILL sell boats.
Making "fluff" changes to a boat only requires the input of a designer. Making changes in the substance of a vessel requires a lot of engineering and field-testing. It's an R&D thing, and it's Expensive. (On that topic - if the current owners of C-Dory aren't corporate-level contributor's to the C-Brat website, they're missing the boat [no pun intended]). The vast majority of C-Brat's are only too willing to share their experiences and perspective, right or wrong - and do it for Free (well, maybe an occasional C-Dory hat). In many cases we'll even finance the modifications (ie. PermaTrims or graphite props) and field test them ourselves. Going through the myriad C-Brat comments must be tedious and time consuming, but we represent a pretty economical R&D Division.
And when it comes to Advertising - C-Brat's are so fanatical about their vessels their boats we actually chum-in folks who are interested, and we Love to talk and show-off our pride and joy's. Is there a C-Brat that hasn't invited a random looky-lou aboard at a gas station, for a quick look-around? I doubt it.
We're a different lot. What moves us is not sleek and sexy; but show me truly improved performance, or a better prop-choice, and I'm your's Forever. There are not hundreds of thousands of us; but we DO represent a viable market (even in these times). But you gotta recognize who we are, what we want, and how to get through to us.
There ... I've gone on too long (but that's my style). I'll leave it to the folks who really know marketing to make it work.
Best,
Casey
Ah, Casey, my friend, you said what we all believe. These boats are different. The owners are different. I don't think the market is saturated; I truly believe there are plenty of "uneducated" buyers who haven't been shown the virtues of these vessels... yet.
Those of us here get it. Not sure about the last couple manufacturers. Not saying they don't, just saying they haven't participated with those of us who do. We have a few dealers who participate here who definitely get it. Do you have to post here to get it? Nope. But, I haven't met any C-Dory folks (not the same as boaters) who don't enjoy sharing their passion.
Thanks for sharing your passion.
Best wishes,
Jim
Those of us here get it. Not sure about the last couple manufacturers. Not saying they don't, just saying they haven't participated with those of us who do. We have a few dealers who participate here who definitely get it. Do you have to post here to get it? Nope. But, I haven't met any C-Dory folks (not the same as boaters) who don't enjoy sharing their passion.
Thanks for sharing your passion.
Best wishes,
Jim
Captains Cat
New member
Chester":2gzng81q said:
If they'd improved it they would have made a 4" X 2". Actually, they have made a great boat!!
charlie
Speaking of the business...There's an article about the Lindhout brothers and Triton Marine in today's Bellingham Herald.
[KATIE GREENE | THE BELLINGHAM HERALD: Shane Potter masks off sections of the interior of a C-Dory 25-foot Cruiser so he can paint it Thursday, Aug. 26, at Triton Marine.]
[KATIE GREENE | THE BELLINGHAM HERALD: Shane Potter masks off sections of the interior of a C-Dory 25-foot Cruiser so he can paint it Thursday, Aug. 26, at Triton Marine.]
starcrafttom
Active member
read what was posted at tims site but if you go to the link to the bellingham paper you get a lot more out of the article.
seems that they were not allowed to build the seasport anymore. It was not their choice. and id they had not financed the c-dory buy out then that would not have been their choice either. looks like we are luck the dory's are still being built at all.
seems that they were not allowed to build the seasport anymore. It was not their choice. and id they had not financed the c-dory buy out then that would not have been their choice either. looks like we are luck the dory's are still being built at all.
turtleblues
New member
If you walk the dock at Cap Sante you will see more Nordics than I have ever seen. Their inventory and flooring (a car dealer term) must be enormous.