No more C-Dory Factory service, Seattle area
- Thread starter Falco
- Start date
I wanted to reply to a couple of questions that came up.
Before we even began discussions with Lake Union SeaRay we established several items that were very important to us. Excellent service center, ability to stock a good selection of product, willingness to paricipate in owners group events, and installing and servicing of the Honda motors were among a few of the items on the list. We have had an OEM agreement with Honda for many years. Honda has been an extremely good partner and we did not want to turn our backs on Honda or our local customers. Kevin, the owner of Lake Union SeaRay, did not hesitate one bit in his willingness to become a package Honda dealer and service center. It was also very important to him that our existing and future customers are taken care of. Honda motors will continue to be an option on C-Dory boats both locally and nationally.
We have had an OEM relationship with Suzuki for the last two years. Suzuki also makes a great motor. Over the course of the last year about half of the boats that we produced went out with Honda and the other half went out with Suzuki. We have also established an OEM agreement as of September 1st with Mercury Marine. Our service personnel and riggers have been going through the Mercury training over the course of the last couple of weeks. We are honored to have not only been considered as an OEM partner for these fine engines, but to have been chosen by all three industry leading brands.
We will be working with Lake Union SeaRay to provide service to all C-Dory owners regardless of the brand of engine. service or repairs. Between Lake Union SeaRay and ourselves every customer will be taken better care of than they ever have before.
For those of you who are in need of repairs that are beyond the scope of what a typical boat dealer is capable of. ie Sensei, whom we replaced the transom of on his 20+ year old C-Dory, we will certainly continue to offer our factory as an option for doing those repairs. Tyboo, you can rest easy.
As the C-Brats continue to grow, the feedback continues to grow accordingly. It is not that we have more issues with the boats, it is really that we have a better medium for discussing it. We are more aware of any issues today than we were even a year ago. I can also tell you that we have never built a better boat than what we are currently building. The boats get better and better each day and the feedback from our owners deserve alot of the credit. I have asked Tom Latham, our VP of Operations, to outline our QC process so I can post it here on the owners Group. I have also asked Tom to discuss the key personnel that we have brought on board and to outline some of the processes that have been implemented that have ultimately lead to a better built boat. We are continuosly striving to build a better boat. I will post this information next week.
Thank you,
Jeff
Before we even began discussions with Lake Union SeaRay we established several items that were very important to us. Excellent service center, ability to stock a good selection of product, willingness to paricipate in owners group events, and installing and servicing of the Honda motors were among a few of the items on the list. We have had an OEM agreement with Honda for many years. Honda has been an extremely good partner and we did not want to turn our backs on Honda or our local customers. Kevin, the owner of Lake Union SeaRay, did not hesitate one bit in his willingness to become a package Honda dealer and service center. It was also very important to him that our existing and future customers are taken care of. Honda motors will continue to be an option on C-Dory boats both locally and nationally.
We have had an OEM relationship with Suzuki for the last two years. Suzuki also makes a great motor. Over the course of the last year about half of the boats that we produced went out with Honda and the other half went out with Suzuki. We have also established an OEM agreement as of September 1st with Mercury Marine. Our service personnel and riggers have been going through the Mercury training over the course of the last couple of weeks. We are honored to have not only been considered as an OEM partner for these fine engines, but to have been chosen by all three industry leading brands.
We will be working with Lake Union SeaRay to provide service to all C-Dory owners regardless of the brand of engine. service or repairs. Between Lake Union SeaRay and ourselves every customer will be taken better care of than they ever have before.
For those of you who are in need of repairs that are beyond the scope of what a typical boat dealer is capable of. ie Sensei, whom we replaced the transom of on his 20+ year old C-Dory, we will certainly continue to offer our factory as an option for doing those repairs. Tyboo, you can rest easy.
As the C-Brats continue to grow, the feedback continues to grow accordingly. It is not that we have more issues with the boats, it is really that we have a better medium for discussing it. We are more aware of any issues today than we were even a year ago. I can also tell you that we have never built a better boat than what we are currently building. The boats get better and better each day and the feedback from our owners deserve alot of the credit. I have asked Tom Latham, our VP of Operations, to outline our QC process so I can post it here on the owners Group. I have also asked Tom to discuss the key personnel that we have brought on board and to outline some of the processes that have been implemented that have ultimately lead to a better built boat. We are continuosly striving to build a better boat. I will post this information next week.
Thank you,
Jeff
Pat Anderson
New member
Andrew was our "go to" guy for our CD25, just like Buck was for our CD22. Gene, Buck and Andrew know C-Dorys. There is no question about that. Whatever we think about the C-Dory / Cape Cruiser deal, it sounds to me like this is a legitimate repair / service option...this is valuable information to me.
acustis":1os2iqz2 said:
Byrdman":1x6wlk8h said:
Well put, Byrdman...couldn't have said it better myself. I didn't chime in on any of Andrew's posts earlier...I simply wasn't up for another thread turning into a CC discussion/debate.
Andrew - you, Gene, Buck and anyone else from CC are always welcome to participate here, and I'm glad you broke the ice. As the folks getting their hands dirty when many of our boats were built, you probably have some unique insights that would benefit folks reading here.
But Patrick is correct...we've always had a pretty firm policy regarding soliciting business around here. Since we are a C-Dory site, the factory and dealers are given a little latitude in this regard, but even then we try to keep them limited to posting ads for new boats in the appropriate forum.
I'm sure your service offer was sincere and made with the best intentions, and we really would like to keep hearing from those of you who built our boats. But please respect our wishes regarding soliciting in the future.
Da Nag":2p5uk9ua said:
Dang, I don't like to cross one of the crew on this site, but what if Andrew had a posting name like:
Acustis
Cape Cruiser Factory Representative
like Jeff has
FaC-Dory Guy
C-Dory Factory Representative
Heck, as an out of the area user, I don't know all the "behind the scenes" crap that went on, I only know that it's OK to contrast Arimas, Sea Ray, and even Bayliner boats with the C-Dory, but if somebody contrasts a Cape Cruiser in a thread they have to wear Kevlar armor!
:sad
Don
P.S. I edited out my misteak. "Fondling Father" you ain't, Bill. Sorry
You know I apologize to anyone who took offense to me posting on the site. All I am offering is my help and I think that is a fair offer for Jeff Mesmer and Scott Reynolds. Sometimes companys do not have the time for small little things and all I was saying is I do. Sorry for mixing up the pot. I will do you all the favors and delete my account. I will be at the SBS Brydman and look forward to seeing you there!
Mighty Bite
New member
Don, your view that Cape Cruisr is being picked on whereas the Arima, Bayliner and SeaRay get a free ride on this site seems to be a huge reach.
Byrdman's and Da Nag's point regarding the solicitation of business on the
C-Dory site is spot on.
Andrew and his comments are welcomed on the site, but solicitating business on the site is out of line. The exact same would apply to Arima, Bayliner, or SeaRay or other manufacturers and businesses should they take the same tack, which of course, they haven't.
As to Jeff posting on the C-Brat site as "FaC-Dory Guy". What could possibly be more appropriate? This is the "C-Brat" site, for C-Dory boats and their owners, and as such Jeff was invited and encouraged to participate. Largely to
enhance the flow of information between the factory, and the many C-Dory
owners. Jeff's participation has vastly improved the great resource of the
C-Dory site to the mutual benefit of C-Dory owners and the factory.
Byrdman's and Da Nag's point regarding the solicitation of business on the
C-Dory site is spot on.
Andrew and his comments are welcomed on the site, but solicitating business on the site is out of line. The exact same would apply to Arima, Bayliner, or SeaRay or other manufacturers and businesses should they take the same tack, which of course, they haven't.
As to Jeff posting on the C-Brat site as "FaC-Dory Guy". What could possibly be more appropriate? This is the "C-Brat" site, for C-Dory boats and their owners, and as such Jeff was invited and encouraged to participate. Largely to
enhance the flow of information between the factory, and the many C-Dory
owners. Jeff's participation has vastly improved the great resource of the
C-Dory site to the mutual benefit of C-Dory owners and the factory.
3rd Byte":2mw46dwt said:
Hmmm. I respectfully disagree, Mark. The Cape Cruiser has,since first marketed, caused more controversy on this board than any other marque out there. I recall that very little of it that was positive. The CC has it's good points even though I still prefer C-Dory, and again I see no reason why it still instantly raises the hackles of users on here. Even your comment could be construed as a knee jerk reaction by some. My old faithful writing mantra strikes again: It's easy to write to be understood but extremely difficult to write so as to not be misunderstood.
As for soliciting business, contrary to your interpretation of my post, I agree wholeheartedly. But was it a CC solicitation? I, for one, wasn't sure, just like sometimes Jeff has posted comments that could also be interpreted as marketing fluff, and a few dealers have advertised available C-Dorys. It's a grey area and IMHO should remain so, subject to the moderator's discretion not mine.
No, I don't defend CC. They had some folk who really didn't understand the power of the internet and user groups, and started out with a foot in their mouth. A month or so later they just swapped feet! Then came the Red Fox Stuberg debacle. Andrew might be a member of a conspiracy trying to get their foot in the door again OR he could just be Andrew, WYSIWIG. (What you see is what you get.) I am not about to be judge, jury, and executor. That's what Moderators get highly paid to do.
Yes, FaC-Dory Guy is appropriate. Did I say it wasn't? In my obviously inadequate way I was saying that if Andrew was, in fact, representing Cape Cruisers, he ought to indicate that up front just like every dealer/user and Jeff are required to do in every one of their posts!
I hope I cleared up some misconceptions without creating more controversy or anyone taking it personally (except Mike). When it comes to talking about CC and C-Dory in the same thread, knees get jerked and skins thin to almost nothing. It just ain't right!
Don
Don, here's the rub: the Bayliner, Arima, Sea Ray are different animals. No one "broke off" from C-Dory to start those companies (whether in fact or by association). The CC situation just "feels" like it's too close to the original concept. Having been in a business where people tried to duplicate my products, it feels like a rip. Had CC changed their design enough to at least have the appearance of an original product, I imagine the feelings would be different for most C-Dory owners.
I looked at their boat during the SBS; it was nice. Should be, since it was SO darn close to the "real thing." Much like the Japanese clones of a Harley: close. Much like the Chinese copy of a Honda EU2000i generator: close. My respect and loyality lies with C-Dory, and that's what this site is all about. Not something that's "close."
Close enough to make it feel like a copy, not an orginal. I also had a dear friend who had an employee who left and tried to solicit his clients (under the pretense that "it's the same." My friend put it well: "I taught him everything he knows; I didn't teach him everything I know."
Best wishes,
Jim B.
I looked at their boat during the SBS; it was nice. Should be, since it was SO darn close to the "real thing." Much like the Japanese clones of a Harley: close. Much like the Chinese copy of a Honda EU2000i generator: close. My respect and loyality lies with C-Dory, and that's what this site is all about. Not something that's "close."
Close enough to make it feel like a copy, not an orginal. I also had a dear friend who had an employee who left and tried to solicit his clients (under the pretense that "it's the same." My friend put it well: "I taught him everything he knows; I didn't teach him everything I know."
Best wishes,
Jim B.
Pat Anderson
New member
Mark, let me offer a little different perspective here. The C-Dory factory is not going to fix my scratches and chips any more. They are not going to service my Honda outboard any more. So I am interested in what resources are available around here. I don't see what is wrong with Andrew's post in the slightest. Whatever Bill and Mike decide about this, however, is of course fine with me.
3rd Byte":1ilm20nv said:
Hi Jim,
I would like to share a different perspective. Some of the folks at CC were involved in the original design and development of the C-D. C-D was sold to Scot Reynolds. Scot didn't design the boats, but rather took an existing company and expanded it.
The CC bears a strong resemblance to the C-D because it is designed and developed by some of the same people. There are subtle, but substantial differences between the boats. The CC is not a rip-off, but an evolution of a great boat. I visited the CC shop numerous times while they were developing the plug for the hulls and constucting the molds. There is an incredible amount of labor involved in the tooling of new hull and deck molds.
If the goal was to do a rip off, they could have purchased a used C-D and "spashed it". The good folks at CC have gone through incredible efforts to design and build the plugs and molds from scratch to create a boat that shares the heritage of the C-D, but is an excellent boat in it's own right.
The market is big enough for both builders, so owners of one brand should not be threatened by the presence of the other brand.
Best Regards,
Leo
I would like to share a different perspective. Some of the folks at CC were involved in the original design and development of the C-D. C-D was sold to Scot Reynolds. Scot didn't design the boats, but rather took an existing company and expanded it.
The CC bears a strong resemblance to the C-D because it is designed and developed by some of the same people. There are subtle, but substantial differences between the boats. The CC is not a rip-off, but an evolution of a great boat. I visited the CC shop numerous times while they were developing the plug for the hulls and constucting the molds. There is an incredible amount of labor involved in the tooling of new hull and deck molds.
If the goal was to do a rip off, they could have purchased a used C-D and "spashed it". The good folks at CC have gone through incredible efforts to design and build the plugs and molds from scratch to create a boat that shares the heritage of the C-D, but is an excellent boat in it's own right.
The market is big enough for both builders, so owners of one brand should not be threatened by the presence of the other brand.
Best Regards,
Leo
:beer :smiled
Sharing and learning the Jacksonville FL area today with another C-Dory owner and C-Brat... Donz. What a great day ahead.
This is what C-Dory ownership and this site is giving us....these opportunities to just show up ...and know ya have someone there with common interest.
Byrdman
Sharing and learning the Jacksonville FL area today with another C-Dory owner and C-Brat... Donz. What a great day ahead.
This is what C-Dory ownership and this site is giving us....these opportunities to just show up ...and know ya have someone there with common interest.
Byrdman
Greetings Leo,
I understand the heritage. What I don't understand is the intent of the CC folks by making a boat that is SO close. Down in our part of the country, boat builders are copyrighting their designs because copying a design is so rampant. Whether the CC folks copied or originated the design, the C-Dory name and rights were sold. They (CC) could have chosen to make something different, they didn't. My opinion is that is just not right.
When I sold my business recently, I signed a non-compete agreement. Realistically, I could go to just outside the miles specified and start a competing business. I wouldn't. I used the term "rip" and not rip-off; to me, a rip is an unfair situation. I certainly don't think CC is making a cheaper rip-off of the C-Dory (so, perhaps my comparison of the Honda generator and the Chinese product wasn't the best), but your use of "evolution" implies further development of an existing product, and that's certainly the way the CC comes across. There is certainly room in most markets for good competitive products. At what point does rounding a curve constitute a different product? I've just always believed that if you received your income from a man (or company), there should be some respect. If you were paid for your work (the design or other intellectual property included), it's not fair to take that with you when you go off on your own to compete.
I was cautioned privately to not turn this into another round of CD vs CC, and that is not my intent. The Honda Shadow is a well-engineered motorcycle, obviously "borrowing" many of its functions and styling cues from the Harley Davidson. It doesn't make it any less of a good bike; but you won't see the H-D faithful buying a Shadow. I don't think my boat is better than yours... or if I do, I wouldn't say that publicly (never insult a man's wife, boat, or his dog :wink: ). If you come to an H-D rally with a Shadow, you should expect some guff. I'm certainly NOT saying the CC folks deserve guff... just remember that you are in a C-DORY OWNERS' SITE. Promoting any other boat, or as in Andrew's case, himself (after gaining knowledge and experience while at C-Dory), IMHO isn't right here. There are lots of sites out there that are not brand specific... but this site has some of the most enthusiastic, friendly, sharing folks of any place (real or cyber) that I've had the pleasure to visit.
I would certainly enjoy the opportunity to buy you an adult beverage of your choice and trade "boat tours" if we ever have the opportunity to meet in person.
And in the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump: and that's all I've got to say about that.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
I understand the heritage. What I don't understand is the intent of the CC folks by making a boat that is SO close. Down in our part of the country, boat builders are copyrighting their designs because copying a design is so rampant. Whether the CC folks copied or originated the design, the C-Dory name and rights were sold. They (CC) could have chosen to make something different, they didn't. My opinion is that is just not right.
When I sold my business recently, I signed a non-compete agreement. Realistically, I could go to just outside the miles specified and start a competing business. I wouldn't. I used the term "rip" and not rip-off; to me, a rip is an unfair situation. I certainly don't think CC is making a cheaper rip-off of the C-Dory (so, perhaps my comparison of the Honda generator and the Chinese product wasn't the best), but your use of "evolution" implies further development of an existing product, and that's certainly the way the CC comes across. There is certainly room in most markets for good competitive products. At what point does rounding a curve constitute a different product? I've just always believed that if you received your income from a man (or company), there should be some respect. If you were paid for your work (the design or other intellectual property included), it's not fair to take that with you when you go off on your own to compete.
I was cautioned privately to not turn this into another round of CD vs CC, and that is not my intent. The Honda Shadow is a well-engineered motorcycle, obviously "borrowing" many of its functions and styling cues from the Harley Davidson. It doesn't make it any less of a good bike; but you won't see the H-D faithful buying a Shadow. I don't think my boat is better than yours... or if I do, I wouldn't say that publicly (never insult a man's wife, boat, or his dog :wink: ). If you come to an H-D rally with a Shadow, you should expect some guff. I'm certainly NOT saying the CC folks deserve guff... just remember that you are in a C-DORY OWNERS' SITE. Promoting any other boat, or as in Andrew's case, himself (after gaining knowledge and experience while at C-Dory), IMHO isn't right here. There are lots of sites out there that are not brand specific... but this site has some of the most enthusiastic, friendly, sharing folks of any place (real or cyber) that I've had the pleasure to visit.
I would certainly enjoy the opportunity to buy you an adult beverage of your choice and trade "boat tours" if we ever have the opportunity to meet in person.
And in the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump: and that's all I've got to say about that.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
Hi James,
I appreciate your response. Because I am a residential architect, I probably focus on the design aspect more than others. (and probably too much)
Many designers typically repeat certain design elements that over time become a "signature" to the designer's work. Edwin Monk Jr. is a very well respected naval architect on Bainbridge Island, WA. He has designed yachts for Roughwater, Tollycraft, Sunnfjord, and Ocean Alexander. While these boats are different from each other there are still common elements that give the boat a certain look where one can say: "That is a Monk design."
Around in the northwest, most boaters can identify designs by Bill Garden, Robert Perry, Ed Monk, Jack Sarin, Lynn Senour, and Dave Livingston, because each designer has their "signature" elements.
What I was trying to say in my previous post that the Tolands have their signature style of designing, regardless of who is building their boats.
I owned a Toland 18-8 cruiser for a few years, and it was an excellent boat. When I first saw it at the Seattle boat show in 1995, I thought: "Who would have the guts to copy a C-Dory and put it on display here?" When I learned that the boat was built and designed by Ben Toland, then it all made sense. I am currently between boats and when I get my next boat it will be a tough call between a CC and a C-D. They are both excellent boats.
I am not trying to re-kindle the boating equivalent of the classic "Ford-Chevy" debates, but rather share my perspective based on a design background.
Best Regards,
Leo
I appreciate your response. Because I am a residential architect, I probably focus on the design aspect more than others. (and probably too much)
Many designers typically repeat certain design elements that over time become a "signature" to the designer's work. Edwin Monk Jr. is a very well respected naval architect on Bainbridge Island, WA. He has designed yachts for Roughwater, Tollycraft, Sunnfjord, and Ocean Alexander. While these boats are different from each other there are still common elements that give the boat a certain look where one can say: "That is a Monk design."
Around in the northwest, most boaters can identify designs by Bill Garden, Robert Perry, Ed Monk, Jack Sarin, Lynn Senour, and Dave Livingston, because each designer has their "signature" elements.
What I was trying to say in my previous post that the Tolands have their signature style of designing, regardless of who is building their boats.
I owned a Toland 18-8 cruiser for a few years, and it was an excellent boat. When I first saw it at the Seattle boat show in 1995, I thought: "Who would have the guts to copy a C-Dory and put it on display here?" When I learned that the boat was built and designed by Ben Toland, then it all made sense. I am currently between boats and when I get my next boat it will be a tough call between a CC and a C-D. They are both excellent boats.
I am not trying to re-kindle the boating equivalent of the classic "Ford-Chevy" debates, but rather share my perspective based on a design background.
Best Regards,
Leo
Leo, I am no architect but if I were I suspect the most striking aspect in comparison for so erudite an eye should be the similarity. If you built a block full of houses with no more visual difference than in those two boats, you would probably have government subsidies helping you pay for the project. Signature, indeed. I am no designer, either, but I am certain that one can build a hull with the exact same positive virtues of the CD/CC hull and make the topside look different enough that they will not be confused. But it is the visual first impression that sells the most, and I think the impulse in the latest signature creation - conscious or not - was to stay rather than stray. I am not personally troubled by that because I don't have a penny invested in the comparison, but I am enough a slave to human nature to think. "Hey, wait a minute..."
I am quite tired of this bantering about CC/CD
IT MATTERS NOT what we think about any of it. It has been explained quite sufficiently in earlier posts what has transpired between these two companies and I am satisfied with that.
LET IT BE we have more to worry about in our lives
Acustis, Welcome aboard mate.
IT MATTERS NOT what we think about any of it. It has been explained quite sufficiently in earlier posts what has transpired between these two companies and I am satisfied with that.
LET IT BE we have more to worry about in our lives
Acustis, Welcome aboard mate.
Hey Roger,
We aren't through beating this topic to death yet!
Mike, I do agree with you that they could have made some changes to the cabin, perhaps a forward raked winshield as on the Sea Sport 24' explorer, or side windows in the trunk cabin as with the 25' Tomcat, but then again, they didn't ask for my opinion.
Best Regards,
Leo
We aren't through beating this topic to death yet!
Mike, I do agree with you that they could have made some changes to the cabin, perhaps a forward raked winshield as on the Sea Sport 24' explorer, or side windows in the trunk cabin as with the 25' Tomcat, but then again, they didn't ask for my opinion.
Best Regards,
Leo
Mark Toland
New member
I would like to respectfully remind the members that C-Dory Inc did not sell the design rights for the C-Dory molds it sold to C-Dory Marine. Only the production rights to some models were sold. If you search under my name as author you will find a previous thread on the subject.
Mark Toland Presedent of C-Dory Inc.