New Venture Hull Shape

NORO LIM":3b4xwoiq said:
C-Nile":3b4xwoiq said:
. . .

So in a 4 foot head sea, with those of you who have Permatrim, can you limit bow rise with Permatrim at slower speeds of 7 knots and maintain forward progress in a reasonable way. . . .

Rich

Permatrims and trim tabs have no effect on bow attitude (or anything else) when the boat is at rest. They have maximum (and potentially catastrophic!) effect at WOT. The slower the speed of the boat, the smaller the influence of the foils or tabs. They really start to make the most significance difference at planing speeds. Weight distribution is the only way to trim a boat at rest or at very slow speed. I pack for trips with this in mind, and have some things that don't need to be lashed down ready to be heaved forward or aft as circumstances dictate.

Going into steep chop at slow speed, I do not rely just on Permatrims. I move some weight forward. Likewise, in big following seas, I move some weight back. Head on into 4-foot seas that are at all steep is not going to be comfortable no matter what, however.

In the right (wrong) conditions, some deep V's riding slowly and bow-up in big waves can be wallowing nightmares, while corks like a C-Dory or Venture do better.

In following seas, we lift the bow up slightly using engine trim. Our boat is a little different than CD 22's due to its even weight distribution, so we don't need to move weight around to adjust trim. I certainly agree with you about speed and trim/Permatrim -- excessive speed can result in a nasty situation. You are right that the slower one travels, the less effective trim tabs are. But Permatrim is far more effective at slower speeds. What I'm really interested in is how people's CD22s with Permatrim perform in a head seas of 4 or 5 feet. How fast can you travel?
 
While we don't purposely go looking for big choppy water, if encountered, we won't try a strait on frontal assault on much over 2 1/2 ft at planing speeds. We can come off the wind a bit and take it off the bow some and speeds stay up. A wallow now and then and a toss of spray up the windows and one can make good time. On a long crossing like Georgia Strait you can "tack" your way across. Like I said prior our last GS crossing was calm at first then 3-4 ft for the last half(10) miles and we stayed on plane at 15+ with the wind and seas brought back 40 degrees or so. Easy ride. If I'd brought up to bow on to shorten the distance a bit we'd be slower and bumpier and my mate would get some cranky. Better to come off the wind some, just like sailing.
 
Weight is important on a C-Dory, both for performance and towing. So, lets be sure of the weights that we talk about.

I worked out a weight basis for Journey On as shown below. Since a lot of the weight is "cruising weight", the stuff we put on the boat when we go places, adjustments can and should be made. However, the basic weight remains realistic. Note that a 26 Venture is 500 lbs more than a 25 C-Dory (factory brochure.)

Also, I checked E-Z Loader trailer weights. For a 7500# ALUMINUM bunk trailer, the shipping weight is 1650 lbs, ~ 300 lbs lighter than a steel trailer. So, you can make that adjustment. The factory supplied a 7500# trailer as a minimum, several factories ago and I certainly agree with them. A trailer weighing 1000 lbs only is rated for 4000#, which is questionable even for a C-Dory 22. Also note that roller trailers seem to be ~200lbs more than a bunk trailer. There is a roller trailer under Journey On (most of the time.)

In summary, the weight shown below is reasonable. I've towed Journey On with both a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton. Both doable, steadier with a 3/4 ton.

Boat_Weight.jpg

Boris
 
When I first started cruising on the 22 Cruiser, it was with friends that had a 23 foot B-Boat . It weighed a little more than half again what SleepyC does, used twice the fuel, for the same distance and generally we cruised side by side and fueled at the same times, pumps and places.

The Bayliner had the deep V, and twice the power. I had the flat bottom and twin 40's with trim tabs and no Permatrim.

The cruising difference. In confused chop above 1.5 -2 feet, they did not need to slow down, so could continue to cruise at 20-25 knots. For us, at about 18 - 20, with the tabs engaged, and bow down that chop was about max. Above 2 ft we were down to about 12 knots.

I have crossed Juan de Fuca in 3-5 ft mostly quartering beam seas, and run in Strait of Georgia in 6-8 ft following seas. Neither of these situations are "comfortable" but I was never concerned about my boat being able to handle the conditions. It was primarily a matter of constant speed and direction control challenge. As was mentioned earlier, Seemed like a lot of exercise.

Yup, a big, deep v, loaded, will manage to smoothing things in the chop with the bow high because it is using that full length V to cut into the chop. Run a flat bottom in bow high attitude and you are going to pound the pudding out of the boat and riders.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

HH_Cal_09_02_Feb.thumb.jpg
 
Lot's of information in the last day on this thread! AK angler--yes, I meant Cape Cruiser--sorry.
Weight of the boat: Boris's has posted his information before--and since it is scale weight--and not too far from what I would have aboard, I will let his speak for itself. I also carry a chest freezer--with food that would be another 100 lbs, the 26 weight is at least 500# more than the 25. There is slightly more fuel (60#). If Boris's weight is correct, which I believe it is, then the CC/Venture 26 may weigh more than I estimated--Boris's weight about 7400 lbs ready to cruise--add 500 lbs, and you are at 7900 lbs.
Anyone have a certified scale weight on a 26? At what load level?

The trailer in question is a Pacific Boat Trailer G25 TW 5-10. According to both factory weight, and stickers on the trailer, the weight of the trailer is 1995#, there is a spare tire, and extra weight of side bunks--so if you were to weigh it, most likely over 2100#. Obviously AK Angler must have a much lighter trailer, if it weighs only 1000 lbs...I would prefer an AL trailer. But even an AL trailer which has this capacity would be over 1500 lbs.

Anyway you cut it--there is going to be at least 8,000 lbs, if you are loaded for cruising.

Foggy, having towed a C Dory 25 over 10,000 miles--pretty well loaded for cruising with a 3/4 ton diesel--I would be very reluctant to tow it with anything lighter--except short distances to a ramp. You can probably get by on the level with a half ton heavy duty towing package. My conclusion is that I would not tow the Venture 26 I looked at with my Yukon XL Heavy duty towing package, 4 x 4. I suspect that there are some folks who are towing them with a 1/2 ton.

Now, the permitrim and trim tabs and C-nile's comments: First you don't run an low dead rise boat bow up into the waves and have good ride. There is so much difference in the way that a deep V (22 to 26 degrees deadrise) and a flat bottom boat rides. Looking at a video of a boat in the distance does not give you any idea what the ride in that boat is like. Your boat was bouncing around pretty good. Hard to tell wave height in a video, or by description. There is also a very good reason that offshore racing boats have a helmsman, and throttle man. You are working the throttles as much as steering when going fast in moderate to heavy seas. There is also the experience and reflexes of an experienced driver which has a lot to do with how the boat rides in any specific sea state/speed.

My experience with a C Dory 22 with no trim tab and Permatrim vs a C Dory 22 with both is such that there is no question in my mind that the C Dory 22 rides much better with both. The bow can be trimmed down more with the combination--than with either alone, if necessary. The trim tabs can trim lateral trim in the boat--and these may need to be varied as the wind, waves, and weights shift in the boat (passengers move around for example). Both the Permatrim and Trim tabs are better at pushing the bow down (Lifting the stern). The reason I don't like to trim the boat with weight, is that at some point you may go from wanting the bow down--going into chop, to bow up, going down wind/seas.

To answer WillC's question about not seeing many 23 and 26 for sale? Yes there were far fewer 18 26 Ventures, and 56 23 Ventures, and they are more expensive. Are they better boats--yes in some ways.

A couple more comments on C-Nile's posts:
D) Confused seas of greater than 4 feet wave height: 4 to 6 mph...incredibly rough ride and can be dangerous as one can be broadsided if not alert
I normally run a little faster in those seas--and never felt that there was danger;
E) Head seas greater than 3.5 mph: 4 mph...need football padding, helmet and three point shoulder harness due to waves falling out from under our boat
Again, the place where you bear off to 45 degrees, work the throttle, and if there is a larger boat going your way, fall in behind--never had 3 point harness etc.
F) Following seas 3 to 4 feet: 12 to 18 mph...smooth ride, but constant throttle adjustments -- feels too much like exercise." We have run both the 22 and 25 in much higher following seas--and find the boat does very well--yes, you do have to work the throttle--and that should be part of almost every time we go out. It is "normal' for my to have a hand of the throttle.

"Finally, one word about speed: we have taken our Marinaut to 35 mph, which seems to be the limit for our 115 Honda at W.O.T. It feels dangerous at that speed -- like a car traveling on ice. One would expect this effect in a planing hull." Yes, these flat bottom boats are not designed for high speeds, but there are many planing hulls which are designed to go much faster, this is not the characteristic of a planing hull. It is a characteristic of a flat bottom boat, with little deadrise and little "grip" on the water.

"Our boat is a little different than CD 22's due to its even weight distribution, so we don't need to move weight around to adjust trim"
I don't understand what you are trying to say. That the C Dory 22 is poorly designed in its weight distribution?

"Why can we move along at up to 15 knots into a 3 foot head sea, but when it hits 4 foot head seas, we really can't make forward progress, and are lucky if we can go 3.5 knots? Having traveled on both coasts, I think Long Island Sound is worse in many ways than the waters we traveled in the PNW. Our waves our steep and of short periods, and at times can become so confused,"

Finally, You can go 15 knots into 3 foot seas? You really want to go directly into seas of 4 or higher? No way. As far as roughness--I don't think you can make such a generalization based on your exposure on the coasts. There are many factors--depth of water, fetch, wind direction/directions, currents, and many more.
 
Quoted from Rich "What I'm really interested in is how people's CD22s with Permatrim perform in a head seas of 4 or 5 feet. How fast can you travel"

Rich,

We have made many long & short runs into very short spaced waves at 4 feet plus during our Southeastern Alaska cruises & time spent on Yellowstone lake & other large lakes in British Columbia & the Yukon in Canada, with & without Permatrims on our twin Hondas. In these conditions, I have found no comfort speed zone & very little if any difference with trim tabs & Permatrims fully down, having still fallen off oncoming waves & slammed into the next with speed down to 2 knots when on top of the wave. Also there is a point somewhere around the 5 feet wave height where trying to quarter into them only makes it worse, creating a feeling in the boat similar to very confused seas in the 5 to 8 realm.

Some of the more memorable of these experiences were trying to go south from Haines, Alaska down the Lynn Canal & rounding Cape Ommaney the Cape that separates the protected inside waters & the open Gulf of Alaska, in both, conditions deteriorated to the point where we were forced to retreat & then a 40 mile run between Hoonah & Elfin Cove, Alaska that took 8 hours & a 13 mile run between Skagway & Haines Alaska that consumed 4 hours & us trying to make the highest speed possible. So Permitrims or not in conditions over 4 feet with very steep & short spaced waves, speed will be limited to 2-5 knots with still falling off many waves with the results of much pounding. Where it really gets bad is when riding the tide of a few knots into these waves where the speed cannot be reduced without losing control. You will not see improvement in the above conditions with the addition of Permitrims, but like others have said, they really are beneficial in the not much less chop where a much higher comfortable speed can be maintained with there addition.

We now avoid most carefully these kind of runs & most were made during a extended learning period of what we & the boat could do & wanting to see & experience the most possible on limited time adventure cruises, pre retirement.

The account of these experiences & many others are in my write ups of these extended cruises in the Grand Adventure Forum & I hope beyond entertaining a source to be mined for others considering similar adventure.

Jay
 
Gulp... Seems I may have to say goodbye to a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel (over 400 ft lbs torque, rated to tow 7400 lbs) before I pick out an acceptable color.

I agree with Bob about bow up in a chop. It's NG (read no good). And that's any boat will get pounded bow up in an oncoming chop including deep Vs. This position exposes much of the boat's wetted hull to oncoming seas, which don't particularly care about the shape of the boat's bottom, causing unpleasant hull pounding. Deep Vs take oncoming seas planed and leveled out and "on top" or they get pounded too. In fact, when riding "on top" in a deep V, an occasional much larger wave is 'softened' by adding throttle forcing the bow down to 'cut' it with the relatively sharp V of the bow.

Most all this thread is about seamanship. There's nothing like the helmsman who knows how to handle his boat in a sea and when to be out there to begin with. Safety is #1 which means waiting for a weather window before going out in the first place and decreases chances of getting 'caught' in the nasties. It also refers to handling the boat in a prudent matter, in all seas, not to harm it or its occupants. When cruising, adjust trim, speed and course for comfort. You may not mind some pounding but some passengers may get scared or hurt while you're oblivious working the throttle and helm with a smile on your face.

Grandpa used to say, "First control, then speed".

Aye.
 
thataway":38ebhq3u said:
...With the Venture 26, I suspect you are getting in the high 9,,000 lb weight on the trailer loaded to go cruising ...

Bob, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you here. I'm just trying to understand your logic. If a loaded 26-foot Venture weighs in somewhere in the high-9,000# range, wouldn't that put it at nearly 10,000 pounds? Then, assuming this is the "weight on the trailer", wouldn't you also have to add the trailer weight to get the total towed weight?

So, a load of nearly 10k pounds, sitting on a trailer with that much capacity would be pushing 12k pounds of total towed weight, wouldn't it? Are you really making the argument that a Venture 26 has a 'towed weight' of nearly 12k pounds? I just don't see it.

If you're saying the total towed weight would be about 9000#, I couldn't argue with that.

thataway":38ebhq3u said:
... Weight of the boat: Boris's has posted his information before--and since it is scale weight--and not too far from what I would have aboard, I will let his speak for itself. ... If Boris's weight is correct, which I believe it is, then the CC/Venture 26 may weigh more than I estimated--Boris's weight about 7400 lbs ready to cruise--add 500 lbs, and you are at 7900 lbs.

That's pretty close to the numbers I ended up with in my 'weight estimate' spreadsheet that I sent you a couple of weeks ago via PM.

Boris' spreadsheet shows 7027# for his CD25, loaded, but without crew. Adding in his trailer at 1980# provides a total towed weight of 9007#. But since my trailer weighs 1100 pounds less than his, and the published weight of the Cape Cruiser 26 (not the CD V26) is only 200# more than the CD 25, it doesn't surprise me that I estimated my towed weight to be just over 7800#. Simple differences in installed gear, rigging, and supplies could easily account for a few hundred pounds difference between boats.


Code:
Item        Weight  Description 

boat         3800   published hull weight 
motors        800   twin Honda 90's; wet, with props, rigging 
batteries     150   two, with rigging 
misc equip    200   electronics, rod holders, antenna, heater, 1st aid, life jackets, rain gear, dock lines, fenders, etc. 
fuel          715   110 gallons 
water         288   30 gal tank + 6 gal in water heater 
fishing equip 350   downriggers, balls, shrimp pots, pot puller, shrimp line, rods, net, tackle, bait, etc. 
anchors/rodes 125   two, w/chain/line rodes 
galley        125   cookware, dishes, grill, fuel, etc 
berth          50   bedding, toiletries, clothes 
camping       150   food, beverages, ice, cooler 
dinghy        100   raft, oars 
       
       
       
       
Load on trailer   6853   Boat loaded for cruising 
Trailer weight     955   880# Aluminum trailer + spare tire & straps 
       
Towed weight      7808

And, yes... my trailer is very light. It's an 8200# capacity aluminum trailer with a manufacturer's claimed weight of only 880#.
 
Hello Bob, thank you for responding.

First of all, it is not correct that the Marinaut is a flat bottom boat. Take a close look at the hull photos in Les Lampan's Facebook account. It even has a keel of sorts, and maintains a V, albeit slight, until it reaches the stern. As you stated to me over a year ago, "There is slightly more deadrise <in the Marinaut> than the C-Dory, and slightly more reverse chine." And you said that these characteristics "... tend to give... slightly more fuel consumption, but a slightly better ride..." Simply stated, the Marinaut is a great riding boat. An absolute, undeniable fact for me is that she averages 4.7 mpg in real world conditions of dividing total miles traveled by total gallons consumed. These results have been consistent for two years. This does not, however, negate what you stated. Perhaps the hull design is not as efficient than a C-Dory, but has a slightly better ride, and the reason for the Marianut's slightly better fuel efficiency could be that she weighs less than a comparably equipped CD 22. We all know that overall weight is a major factor I fuel consumption.

As for my feeling that 35 mph is too fast, that is my opinion. I am a conservative person who wants to feel that I am in total control. It is not just my life for which I am responsible, but also my passengers. I feel in total control below 30 mph; it is as simple as that. Others may not feel the same as I do. If the water was like glass, than 30 mph would probably be O.K., because there is a good bite to the water. However, she is not a deep V built for speed. Further, the C-Dory's and Marinaut ride low in the water, and we don't have the visibility of a Rosoborough, Ranger Tug, or many production boats in our size range. Traveling more slowly provides greater reaction time to evade objects in the water that are difficult to see.

When I state that I can't make forward progress in greater than 3.5 head seas, I'm talking about significant wave height -- not maximum wave height. At 3.5 feet significant wave height it is not uncommon to experience 6 foot maximum waves. Many of you are making an assumption that seamanship is the answer to my issue such as better throttle adjustments, quartering into the waves, and etc. It's frustrating, because I can't quite figure this out, which is why I am seeking help.

Imagine being in 3.5 footers at significant wave height with 4 to 5 foot maximum waves, and in shallow water. Winds are at 15 to 20 knots, and are coming out of the WNW. Due to the actions of the tides in the Sound, the current from the Connecticut River, 4 knot tidal moves coming out of the south from Plum Gut, the fetch, and wind changes, there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIRECTION ON THE COMPASS that you can point your boat to gain relief. Unless you want to tear the boat apart due to unnecessary roughness, you can barely make 3 knots. This is what it can be like in Central Long Island Sound, and we were in these conditions twice this year. I keep telling everyone that this year was vastly different from my other 5 years on the Sound. There is no way that any of you in a CD 22 Cruiser is going to make even 7 knots in the conditions I describe. In my movie, the 4 footer shown was an occasional maximum wave height, and significant wave height was around 2 to 2.5 feet. We actually made good forward progress -- at least 11 knots -- in these conditions, which you can see in the film. We could have traveled faster, but I don't like to punish my boat and its occupants. The reason that you can't clearly see the other Marinaut in the distance, is because he left me in the dust! The only real difference between our two boats is his Permatrim. When he passed me, his bow looked up, but not excessively. I really get what Bob is saying, so something else more subtle may be at play here.

As for danger in the above confused seas conditions -- if you are not alert, you can be broadsided by a big wave coming from the wrong direction, or you can be traveling too fast when such a wave hits you head on, or from the quarter, which can cause your boat to drop like a lead weight after that fast moving wave falls out from underneath you. That's why I am more than amused when people suggest they can go fast in those conditions. I would love to witness that some day, but from a solid vantage point on the shore through binoculars.

Regarding my comment that my boat is evenly balanced, I was not making a comparison between my boat and a CD 22. Let me put it in my terms: some people have boats that have greater weight in the stern making it difficult to get the bow down. So they have to shift their weight around in the boat. That was the case with my sold CD16 Cruiser. I had to bring a lot of weight forward to even the trim. Thanks to Dave's foresight, those saddle tanks do a great deal to keep the Marinaut nicely trimmed. Frankly, the boat handles so well, that in most conditions, engine trim is enough, but she does benefit from trim tabs, and we need them to hold the bow down at slower planing speeds.

I don't exaggerate. Earlier this year, I was traveling 15 mph into 3 foot head seas maximum wave height. Every third wave was 3 feet, with average wave height 2 to 2.5 feet. I had the trim tabs and engine trim down. She travelled smoothly. When the bow is forced down like that, a lot of water is displaced, and we got a lot of spray hitting the windshield. So we traveled like that for an hour thinking that we were going to make it to our destination in relative comfort. Once we reached Branford, significant wave height reached 3.5 to 4 feet, with 5 foot maximums. Then, while traveling at only 4 knots, a 6 or 7 footer ( as best I could estimate, because it looked level with my roof) sped into us, lifted us into the air, and dropped us like a hot potato. It was the biggest drop I have ever experienced in our boat. This was a rouge wave of sorts, probably caused by changes in bottom depth. Knowing that the conditions changed, I realized, as most prudent boaters would do, that I could not make the 30 miles to my destination. I quartered into the wave troughs going north, and then traveled east with following seas. In these conditions I exceeded 15 mph and travelled smoothly. If you look very carefully at the Marinaut's bow, you can see that it can easily slice through 3 to 3.5 maximum waves at a high rate of speed if you can keep the bow down. But when I make this type of comment, I usually make the caveat that the wave period as well as other factors are at work. So to universally state that the Marinaut can handle all 3 footers at high speed would be ludicrous of me to state.

Finally, I have a theory why Steve's Marinaut with his Permatrim installed went speeding past me. His Permatrim allowed him, without use of excessive trim, to keep his bow down enough to travel on top of the wave crests at around 10 to 12 knots. Not having Permatrim on my boat, 10 knots is not enough for trim tabs alone to keep the bow from bouncing up. To prevent pitch poling, I was forced to go slower. And as Bill commented, trim tabs lose their effectiveness at very slow speeds. Does this make sense?

Rich
 
Hunkydory":rakfgsld said:
Quoted from Rich "What I'm really interested in is how people's CD22s with Permatrim perform in a head seas of 4 or 5 feet. How fast can you travel"

Rich,

We have made many long & short runs into very short spaced waves at 4 feet plus during our Southeastern Alaska cruises & time spent on Yellowstone lake & other large lakes in British Columbia & the Yukon in Canada, with & without Permatrims on our twin Hondas. In these conditions, I have found no comfort speed zone & very little if any difference with trim tabs & Permatrims fully down, having still fallen off oncoming waves & slammed into the next with speed down to 2 knots when on top of the wave. Also there is a point somewhere around the 5 feet wave height where trying to quarter into them only makes it worse, creating a feeling in the boat similar to very confused seas in the 5 to 8 realm.

Some of the more memorable of these experiences were trying to go south from Haines, Alaska down the Lynn Canal & rounding Cape Ommaney the Cape that separates the protected inside waters & the open Gulf of Alaska, in both, conditions deteriorated to the point where we were forced to retreat & then a 40 mile run between Hoonah & Elfin Cove, Alaska that took 8 hours & a 13 mile run between Skagway & Haines Alaska that consumed 4 hours & us trying to make the highest speed possible. So Permitrims or not in conditions over 4 feet with very steep & short spaced waves, speed will be limited to 2-5 knots with still falling off many waves with the results of much pounding. Where it really gets bad is when riding the tide of a few knots into these waves where the speed cannot be reduced without losing control. You will not see improvement in the above conditions with the addition of Permitrims, but like others have said, they really are beneficial in the not much less chop where a much higher comfortable speed can be maintained with there addition.

We now avoid most carefully these kind of runs & most were made during a extended learning period of what we & the boat could do & wanting to see & experience the most possible on limited time adventure cruises, pre retirement.

The account of these experiences & many others are in my write ups of these extended cruises in the Grand Adventure Forum & I hope beyond entertaining a source to be mined for others considering similar adventure.

Jay

Thank you Jay, you make perfect sense. As I stated in my previous post, Steve's Marinaut may have gone a little faster with his Permatrim, but I don't want to travel that fast in those conditions, either. This probably is more of a seamanship issue -- not from the perspective of how one handles one's boat, but from an ability to read the weather and predict wave conditions. For some reason, it is very difficult to predict weather in Central Long Island Sound. I have spoken with people as experienced as just about anyone on C-Brats (not better, just very experienced) who have told me this. Yet, go out to the south shore of Rhode Island, and the forecasts are very accurate. So along the lines of what you said, we now do our best to avoid bad conditions. It is really that simple. For those of you who fly airplanes, you know all too well that too many private aircraft accidents occur, because of a need to get their attitude which put their lives at risk when flying in adverse conditions. A private pilot would not be so foolhardy to fly one's craft into a thunderhead, nor should a boater venture out in heavy seas characterized by the small craft warnings issued.

Rich
 
Ak Angler, we can agree that unless you put your boat on a certified scale, you will be guessing what the weight is. 9400 lbs including trailer, would be realistic for the Venture 26 I was examining. It might be more or less.

C-Nile":18729ja6 said:
First of all, it is not correct that the Marinaut is a flat bottom boat. Take a close look at the hull photos in Les Lampan's Facebook account. than a comparably equipped CD 22.

Rich

Rich, I am sure that your boat is superior in many ways.

Here is a photo of the Marinaut form Les Lampson's album:
321941_155513054536533_420049358_o.jpg


I cannot find a deadrise figure for the Marinaut, but with my protractor I measure 3 degrees of deadrise--that is a flat bottom boat.

I have run along side of Les's boat, in my 22 in a bit of chop and the boats were riding about the same.

There is no question that each person has his own comfort zone. That is fine and you should follow that. You missed my point: You stated " It feels dangerous at that speed -- like a car traveling on ice. One would expect this effect in a planing hull.
No, one does not expect this in a planing hull.

Rich, there are bad conditions in all waters of the world--Long Island Sound does not have a monopoly on currents, winds and waves from different directions. No one is suggesting that you go beyond your comfort level ever.

Just so we are all on the same page: NOAA definition:

" Waves are measured from trough to crest. Seas are the combination of both locally generated wind waves and distantly generated swell waves. Specifically, seas may be derived using the following formula where S is the height of the swell waves and W is the height of the wind waves.
SEAS = Sq root of S squared plus W squared.

Seas and waves are expressed in the terms of the significant wave height, the mean or average height of the highest one third of all waves in a swell train or in a wave generating region. It approximates the value an experienced observer would report if visually estimating sea height. When expressed as a range (e.g. seas 3-5 ft), this indicates a degree of uncertainty in the forecast and/or expected changing conditions (not that all waves are between 3-5 ft). Generally, it is assumed that individual wave heights can be described using a Rayleigh distribution.

Example: Significant Wave Height = 10 ft
1 in 10 waves will be larger than 11 ft
1 in 100 waves will be larger than 16 ft
1 in 1000 waves will larger than 19 ft of wave height is what is universally accepted:
"


I question that you can make 15 mph into 3 foot seas. You had earlier stated "Even in a 1.5 to 2 foot chop, we can still go 10 knots, because the bow really cuts into the on-coming waves, smoothing out the ride" You had stated that your boat "planes at 8 knots." You state that " Steve's Marinaut, with Permatrim went speeding past. You speculate that the Permatrim allowed him, without use of excessive trim to keep his bow down enough to travel on top of the wave crests at 10 to 12 knots. Not having Permatrim on my boat 10 knots is not enough for trim tabs alone to keep the bow from bouncing up. To prevent pitch poling, I was forced to go slower. "

To prevent pitch poling? Pitch poling is the boat tumbling end over end; stern thrown over the bow. For that to occur the seas would have to be 20 feet in height and you would be going down wind and seas. I have reviewed all of the videos on your photo album. It is hard to say what any one wave is from those videos. There are occasionally "summation" waves. These are several waves happen to build and reach their peak at the same time and space. See above as the probability by NOAA.

If the other boat did better with a Permatrim--res ipsa loquitur. As far as boat handling--if two years ago, you were feeling good about "Still going 10 knots in 1.5 to 2 foot chop" it would seem as if you have been making progress. As for trim tabs or Permatrims doing miracles--and "Keeping the bow from bouncing up" It will help the boat ride better. My opinion. Keep practicing. The more rough water you are in, the better you will learn to handle it.
 
thataway":2dh2wty0 said:
Ak Angler, we can agree that unless you put your boat on a certified scale, you will be guessing what the weight is. 9400 lbs including trailer, would be realistic for the Venture 26 I was examining. It might be more or less.

I would agree that, until you run your 26-footer across a set of scales, your guess is no better than mine. :wink
 
Not going to be buying a 26. So we are still waiting for someone to find out what the weight is--loaded as they are outfitted. --and with the specific trailer they have.
 
Bob,

Showing a picture of the stern looking downward is analogous to saying the world is flat as judged by my patio; it's non sequitur. I don't have my Stanley level handy, but my patio looks pretty flat to me.

There are planing hulls and displacement hulls. All boats that are planing hulls have speeds that make them unsafe, Bob. You know this more than I do, because you are an expert on boat designs.

We agree on the NOAA definition of wave height, the fact that it is measured trough to crest, and I often check my subjective assessment with the UCONN Central Long Island Sound station to verify my assessments. That site states: "the significant wave height is the average height of the highest one third of the waves. The maximum wave height is the maximum observed wave height during the sampling period. " I am a layman, so I follow their watered down explanation.

Saying I can go a certain speed does not necessarily mean I can't go faster with a smooth ride. I don't like to exaggerate and often provide minimum numbers. If I overstated or exaggerated, what credibility would I have? It is good to have people like me on your site, because people can get caught in the jargon and technical aspects of a field of endeavor and not see the forrest through the trees. A case in point is the Hubble Space telescope. One of my many interests is astronomy, and I was incredulous to learn they did not perform a Foucault test on the mirror to ensure that the mirror blank was properly parabolic. They had thousand's of pages of procedures on how to work on (and around) the mirror, and where did they screw up? They did not assemble the measurement device properly. They lost the forrest through the trees. So when a less experienced person makes observations, it offers a fresh perspective, because they are not looking through a lens of experience when they report their observations. It offers a wonderful opportunity for experts to re-examine their beliefs, assumptions, and the body of their work. Over the vast majority of time, the expert's knowledge will be validated, but occasionally, they may learn something, too.

Regarding planing at 8 knots, she does plane, but if you want to split hairs, it is on semi-plane, or semi-displacement? I don't know the exact answer, but to get more than 4 mpg at 8 knots shows we are significantly more on top of the water then in displacement. So you tell me: is a statement false if it is mostly true? Not by my book in this particular situation. If anyone is interested, next year I could go out on flat water with no current or wind, and test lower boat speeds in 1/2 knot increments, showing fuel flow and rpms.

I thank you for correcting me on my use of the term pitch pole. I thought it meant the bow shooting up into the air, and then heading nose first down the back side of the leading wave. Whatever you call that affect, that is what I was trying to say.

Don't assume that I don't know how to handle a boat. I may not have your experience, but I'm not a novice, either. You would not have faired any better that me in the conditions I described if our boats were similarly equipped. So that gets at the heart of our initial discussion: to what degree does a Permatrim help the boater in adverse conditions?

As I stated earlier, we can talk all we want about boat designs and boat handling techniques, but I think experience has more to do with knowing when to venture out to sea, understanding the weather, currents, bottom contours and a plethora of factors that we call knowledge. There is no royal road to this experience. I have learned a great deal about this, but have only scratched the surface. On the other hand, I and others on this website know enough not to travel out to sea in waters that experienced sailors fear to tread.

Thanks, this has been a lively and educational discourse.

Rich
 
Well, I'm going to jump in here.

First, AK Angler, I think that thataway's estimate is better than your guess. First of all, he's starting from a detailed estimate, which I listed. This includes a scale weight. He's also added the factory number for the difference in weight between a C-Dory and Venture. And he's using a reasonable weight for a trailer that would support a boat of the estimated weight, from E-Z Loader Trailers. I've spent a lot of time making sure things weigh what they people say they weigh, since I had to launch that weight. And the guesses I got were just that, guesses. Estimates based on a solid data base usually let us launch withing the required weight. That's why I developed that chart and it's a rational, reasonable set of numbers, not a guess. If you have a scale weight, I'd love to see it and would make any adjustments needed.

C-Nile, I've lived with a C-Dory 25 for 8 years now, and I certainly can't go 15 knots into 3-4 ft waves. I'll go down to 6-8 knts. That's because the C-Dory is light and has a flat bottom. I've also watched a 26' deep-V go by me splitting the waves with 500 hp sitting on the rear. They guy was in a hurry to get his customers out fishing and his boat did that. Now the Marinaut is lighter and shorter than Journey On and has a flat bottom, certainly not a V-bottom. And there aren't trim tabs or a fin on an outboard that will make it cut waves. So either you can take a lot more pounding than I want to, or several of your numbers are flawed. And this time I'll vote with Bob. I don't know it that makes him happy, but there you are.

And yes, Long Island Sound is shallower than the Pacific Coast, but what makes Long Island 4' waves easier? From what I know, having passed through Lake Eire, the waves should be steeper, giving an rougher ride. That ride through Lake Eire in a 36' sailboat was the roughest ride I've ever had; square waves since Eire is the shallowest of the Great Lakes I've never actually measured 4' waves, but they impress me.

And finally, since I've worked on several spacecraft with telescopes, I was interested in what went wrong with the Hubbel and I'll comment on that. A Foucault knife test is a good test and is used by amateur telescope builders. The Space Telescope mirror was probably the most precisely figured mirror ever made, with a variation of 10 nanometers. Thus, it needed a finer measurement. Perkin-Elmer used a standard null corrector to give the initial shape and then a custom built null corrector for the final configuration. The latter was assembled incorrectly, and we all know what happened. To compound the error, P-E made later checks which showed that something was wrong, but being behind schedule and over cost, ignored those results. One can't fight stupidity. And finally, Kodak built the mirror for the James Webb Space Telescope, to be launched in ~2015. NASA didn't do anything on the S/C until that mirror was finished. They were snake bit. And by the way, they got a good mirror.

Boris
 
journey on":2fa94qkg said:
Well, I'm going to jump in here.

First, AK Angler, I think that thataway's estimate is better than your guess.

As an engineer, I resent your assertion that my estimate is not valid. I didn't just pull random numbers out of thin air. My estimate is based on published data for the large/heavy components, as well as my personal experience regarding the loads we've typically carried for the past eight years of cruising.

journey on":2fa94qkg said:
If you have a scale weight, I'd love to see it and would make any adjustments needed.

Well, Boris, I'd like you to explain where exactly my estimate is so far out of line. You did see my detailed list, didn't you? What am I missing that would add an additional 1700# to my total tow weight?

I would certainly be open to discussing the validity of my calculation. But, I will not be talked down to, or summarily dismissed, simply because you have ONE data point that you seem to think makes your estimate more valid than mine. Maybe I am wrong in how I estimated the weight of my boat. But, did you ever stop to think that maybe the ONE data point upon which you base your estimate could be an outlier?

Indeed, the fact that you dismiss the weight of my trailer as invalid, simply because your trailer is substantially heavier, indicates that you are wearing blinders when looking at the data - seeing only what you want to see, not what may actually exist.

With that said, I concede the fact that I will likely never convince you (or Bob) of anything, simply because I don't have a scale ticket to refer to, and I won't be getting one anytime soon. My boat - yes, I actually own a 26-footer, unlike a lot of the speculators in this thread - is under shrink wrap 1600+ miles away. But, since this is shaping up to be just one more contentious "Real C-Dory's vs C-Dory's step-children" thread like all the other comparison threads on this site, I have made the decision to remove myself from this discussion. There's just no sense arguing about it.

Have a nice day.
 
Like people, boats gain weight with age. It's not a static measurement.

That is one reason I've been pleased with never under powering a powerboat.

And it is also the reason my wife is going to be displeased with the new diesel tow 3/4 ton truck vs her choice of diesel Cherokee.

C-Dory posted 5300 lbs for boat, fuel, engine for the 26 Venture...

Aye.
 
I moved the discussion of the nature of the Marinaut's design to the Marinaut forum. Unfortunately, what started out as a sincere desire for advice from the C-Dory site degenerated into a needless and pointless discourse on the comparison of the Marinaut to CD 22. I personally like both boats, and each one has its pluses and minuses. What matters is what is right for each one of us. Both boats are very beautiful and wonderfully constructed.

I think, too, that it might be best for me to stay out of the C-Dory forum, and in the future, I will relegate all my activity and comments to the Marinaut forum. The last thing I want to do is to create hard feelings by others who would misinterpret my comments, because you are all a great bunch of people.

The last thing I want to say, is that the Marinaut will never be a high production boat as it currently exists today. Don't be threatened by it -- embrace it as a cousin in a proud lineage of wonderfully conceived and built boats.

Rich
R
 
Hey guys. Conch queen's original question was about how much difference the two boats had re the bottom, and how much better would the Venture go. We all know a few degrees dead rise is still "flat" in comparison to deep vees like Grady's. Dory's by design history were flat bottom boats. Mostly so they could stack them easily on schooners. Just so happens "flat" is great at sea. I'm happy with a "flat" bottom that is what made old dory's so spectacular. So the boats are close cousins. But not hugely different. Just like in 22's Rana Verda I figure is maybe a 750 pounds lighter than Kerri On. I have more stuff! I can hardly run with him on Powell. I asked Scott at Triton about the waterline on the 22 when it was in build regarding where it might end up when loaded for full time. He said "who knows?" These boats were built for fishing. "Then you guys started living on them and dragging them all over the country having adventures!" ( I paraphrase). The factory waterline is for a single engine light boat. It could come up a couple inches for the way a lot of us run them. Two batteries, two engines, gen sets etc 2 inches is a load! Dory ancestry shines with a load. Just like a Tomcat looks enormous out of the water and wants a Truck I think the 26 will want a Truck. The boats are all cousins and c Brats are special. We can have a good discussion and enjoy our various boats. George :lol:
 
Boris,
If memory serves me correctly, the less precise knife edge test was initially proposed, but was ultimately rejected due to monetary constraints. And you are right: it was the most perfect myopic mirror ever made.

Thank you for your insights on traveling in heavy head seas. If you can't do it with a boat your size, then why should I with a smaller boat think otherwise?

Rich
 
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