I have a C Dory 22 that I enjoy very much but my complaint is the slamming you get in chop unless you slow down to "sailboat" speed. I have read that the new Venture hull shapes are more of a "V" hull, which should allow faster speeds with a more comfortable ride. Does anyone have any experience with the new boats? I was in Whidbey Island for 3 years and now I'm in Pensacola, Fl.
New Venture Hull Shape
- Thread starter Bryant
- Start date
I have one of the original Venture hulls. If you are looking for a marked departure from a C-Dory in terms of ride comfort and speed, the Venture should not be your first choice. Any use of the term "V" with respect to the venture hull is really a stretch. It's about 5 degrees deadrise at the stern.
The Venture is probably somewhat better going into the chop and can probably do a few MPH more top end than the C-Dory. (Personally, I wouldn't want to do more than 30 in mine, anyway.) My optimal cruising speed is probably a little higher, and my gas mileage probably a little lower than a C-Dory. The Venture is a little bigger, a little heavier, and little more expensive.
Both the Venture and the C-Dory are great boats.
The Venture is probably somewhat better going into the chop and can probably do a few MPH more top end than the C-Dory. (Personally, I wouldn't want to do more than 30 in mine, anyway.) My optimal cruising speed is probably a little higher, and my gas mileage probably a little lower than a C-Dory. The Venture is a little bigger, a little heavier, and little more expensive.
Both the Venture and the C-Dory are great boats.
I agree with Noro that there's a slight improvement in chop with the Venture but it's not huge. However, on either boat, you can get significant improvement with trim tabs and/or a permatrim (or similar) on the engine. This will push the bow down some and that makes a significant difference. Do you have trim tabs or a permatrim on your boat? If not, you might want to give that a try.
That said, there's only so much you can get by forcing the bow down and the relative flatness of the C-Dory/Venture hull requires relatively slow speeds in larger chop. The tradeoff (of course), is much high fuel costs for those nice V-hulls that cut through the chop and land more gently.
That said, there's only so much you can get by forcing the bow down and the relative flatness of the C-Dory/Venture hull requires relatively slow speeds in larger chop. The tradeoff (of course), is much high fuel costs for those nice V-hulls that cut through the chop and land more gently.
Bryant,
I am sending you a PM with my phone number in Pensacola, where we live (part of the year).
The dead rise aft is a couple of degrees more than the C Dory 22 or 25. There is a bit sharper V in the forefoot.
Most of the time you will not notice a lot of difference. Boats like a Regulator, or Contender will have dead rise of 24 to26 degrees. The C Dory 22 has dead rise of about 3 degrees, the 23 Venture (Cape Dory) will have about 6 degrees of dead rise. Both boats have a variable dead rise as you go forward.
I have ridden in both a 23 and a 26--neither ride like a boat with 24 to 26 degrees dead rise, so they are likely to pound if driven hard into a heavy chop. My estimate is that the 23/26 is about 10 to 15% better ride.
To get the best ride in a 22/25, you need both trim tabs and a Permatrim foil. After you learn to run the boats, you will find the groove where the boat will run the best in chop, or swells. Is it worth trading up? In my opinion no--but those who did trade up, mostly will say yes. The weight of the boat is also an issue--With the Venture 26, I suspect you are getting in the high 9,,000 lb weight on the trailer loaded to go cruising
The newer 26's are going to be heavier, with a cabin sole, rather than using the upper surface of the bottom as a floor. They also have a vinyl and foam headliner. Yesterday I looked at a 2009 Venture 26, was sold in 2011. There was mold on the headliner--and I fear that there might be mold behind the headliner. The top headliner had come "Unglued" and was sagging down by a about 4 to 6".
T
I am sending you a PM with my phone number in Pensacola, where we live (part of the year).
The dead rise aft is a couple of degrees more than the C Dory 22 or 25. There is a bit sharper V in the forefoot.
Most of the time you will not notice a lot of difference. Boats like a Regulator, or Contender will have dead rise of 24 to26 degrees. The C Dory 22 has dead rise of about 3 degrees, the 23 Venture (Cape Dory) will have about 6 degrees of dead rise. Both boats have a variable dead rise as you go forward.
I have ridden in both a 23 and a 26--neither ride like a boat with 24 to 26 degrees dead rise, so they are likely to pound if driven hard into a heavy chop. My estimate is that the 23/26 is about 10 to 15% better ride.
To get the best ride in a 22/25, you need both trim tabs and a Permatrim foil. After you learn to run the boats, you will find the groove where the boat will run the best in chop, or swells. Is it worth trading up? In my opinion no--but those who did trade up, mostly will say yes. The weight of the boat is also an issue--With the Venture 26, I suspect you are getting in the high 9,,000 lb weight on the trailer loaded to go cruising
The newer 26's are going to be heavier, with a cabin sole, rather than using the upper surface of the bottom as a floor. They also have a vinyl and foam headliner. Yesterday I looked at a 2009 Venture 26, was sold in 2011. There was mold on the headliner--and I fear that there might be mold behind the headliner. The top headliner had come "Unglued" and was sagging down by a about 4 to 6".
T
thataway":of1niurz said:
I'm sure you meant Cape CRUISER, not Cape Dory.
thataway":of1niurz said:
In my opinion, that estimate is way, way high. I have yet to actually scale mine, but even using generous numbers for everything we load on the boat for 3-4 day cruises, plus a bit more, I came up with the load on the trailer of under 7000#. Adding in the weight of my trailer doesn't even get me to 8000# tow weight. I don't know what else I could possibly carry that would get the boat up to 9000#... a bunch of gold bullion, perhaps. :shock:
thataway":1pw87y9g said:
Dr. Bob,
Your statement interests me a lot. When you state that a person in a 22/25 needs Permatrim, is it to keep the bow down or keep the bow up? I know this sounds like a stupid question. When we had our stern-heavy CD 16, we had no problem kicking the bow way up into the air, but could not keep the bow down at slow speed; clearly we needed Permatrim. When we test drove Dave's prototype Marinaut, he did not have trim tabs, but had a home-made Permatrim that was so effective that I almost submarined the bow not realizing he had one installed. I thought he had diving planes on his boat. It was incredible and very responsive. As I stated a month ago, Long Island Sound was really rough this year as we were whipsawed by alternating cold and warm fronts, which was very unusual. At any rate, people with deep-V hulls kicked up their bows when going into four foot head seas, and used the weight of their boats to power through this heavy chop. In our Marinaut, I have no problem keeping the bow down, but have the opposite problem in not be able to kick the bow way up into the air like these deep-V hulls. Steve installed a Permatrim on his Irish Queen, and if you looked at my movie of our traveling in heavy seas, that boat in the distance was Steve's boat (see link below.) He seemed to be able to get his bow up higher and travel much faster and smoother than we did in that heavy chop.
So I'm particularly interested if you think a 4,000 pound (loaded) boat would benefit from a bow up position using Permatrim in a heavy chop in head seas.
Thanks!
Rich
I'm more than a little interested in this weight debate. I'm on the books for a tow vehicle which can handle, reportedly, about 7500 lbs. If my 26 Venture, with headliner (dry, no mold), twin 90s, fuel, water, ground tackle, electronics, pots 'n pans, and 23 cases of New Zealand sauvignon blanc, I'm figuring less than 7000 lbs. Kidding about the 23 cases - make that 2 cases max. If, in deed, the goliath tops the scale at 9000 lbs, I'm in for a 3/4 ton diesel truck which my wife will hate, so she says.
About this "V" on the Venture series. Coming off a 28' 24 degree deep "V" w/twin 502 cu in MPI magnums, I can tell you these hulls are wave busters and they can take more than the occupants. There are more than a few broken bones to support this statement. I found taking 3' - 4' seas quartering or straight on at 45 - 60 mph was significantly more comfortable than going 30 mph. This is called "Getting on top" where the boat and props just hit the wave tops without the up and down of riding up a swell and then descending in a trough with the resultant slamming. This is where the true deep "V" shines, on top.
I realize a Venture C-Dory, being more "V'd" than the Classic series, is not apples-to-apples comparison. A C-Dory is not an "on top" boat. How much more "comfortable" in a chop will the 26 Venture be, with it's slight "V" modification, compared to the 25 Classic? Leave this one up to those who test boats or your imagination. Two to four degrees "V'd" aft and more forward may be appropriate for a 25 mph boat, or less in any significant sea, but at these speeds, the aforementioned deep "V' would not be on plane yet. To plane a true deep "V", it takes a lot (read a lot) more HP/weight ratio than found in any C-Dory.
The good news is construction of my 26 Venture starts Monday, Nov 4. Ron agreed to send occasional photos which saves me gobs of driving.
Aye.
About this "V" on the Venture series. Coming off a 28' 24 degree deep "V" w/twin 502 cu in MPI magnums, I can tell you these hulls are wave busters and they can take more than the occupants. There are more than a few broken bones to support this statement. I found taking 3' - 4' seas quartering or straight on at 45 - 60 mph was significantly more comfortable than going 30 mph. This is called "Getting on top" where the boat and props just hit the wave tops without the up and down of riding up a swell and then descending in a trough with the resultant slamming. This is where the true deep "V" shines, on top.
I realize a Venture C-Dory, being more "V'd" than the Classic series, is not apples-to-apples comparison. A C-Dory is not an "on top" boat. How much more "comfortable" in a chop will the 26 Venture be, with it's slight "V" modification, compared to the 25 Classic? Leave this one up to those who test boats or your imagination. Two to four degrees "V'd" aft and more forward may be appropriate for a 25 mph boat, or less in any significant sea, but at these speeds, the aforementioned deep "V' would not be on plane yet. To plane a true deep "V", it takes a lot (read a lot) more HP/weight ratio than found in any C-Dory.
The good news is construction of my 26 Venture starts Monday, Nov 4. Ron agreed to send occasional photos which saves me gobs of driving.
Aye.
Bob's estimation of 10%-15% "better" ride in chop is about accurate. I own a V23 and 15mph in slop, 20mph in med chop, 25mph in light chop, 30mph+ on glass are about what we run (current/tide dependent)...all pretty smooth and at 3.5-4.0 mpg
Trim tabs help immensely.
Top end cruising speed on smooth water is where you are going to see the biggest difference in performance vs. a CD22.
Trim tabs help immensely.
Top end cruising speed on smooth water is where you are going to see the biggest difference in performance vs. a CD22.
I own a Venture and I think there is a big difference on any boat as to how it's loaded when comparing one to another. We have cruised a few different areas with 22' cruisers. The Ventures are quieter I think maybe because of the foam core as opposed to the lighter Balsa core. The two boats in a chop the Venture will walk away from a 22'. I've had a number of people say that own 22's we can't do what your boat can do. I'm not sure how to equate that to a percentage. There is no way they can run in heavy seas with a true deep V style hull. They like an in between. If you raft a 22' and a 23' Venture together and put one foot on each and walk in either direction there is a big difference in the effect on each boat. The Venture is much less affected. Our boat is probably transom heavy because of what we carry. We also have a 150 hp Yamaha that weighs in at about 465 pounds. Only about 60 pounds heavier than a 115hp. We have a Permatrim which helps get the rear end up higher in the water at speed thus less boat in the water. I usually trim the motor all the way down and then bump it back up a little. Because of the Permatrim I think I get better fuel mileage running at 25mph. Because I'm almost 65 years old I seldom run past thirty mph, reflexes not what they used to be. 
I agree above that above thirty is not where this type of hull really shines. The rear of the hull is pretty flat as is 22' cruiser. I almost never use our trim tabs except in a hard cross wind or seas bouncing off the front quarter. Because of the weight we get anywhere from 2.7 to 3.2 mpg the best mpg is about 4500 rpms usually faster than I really want to go. The Venture/ Cape cruisers in the front have a V configuration that transforms into a pretty wide chine on each side as you look toward the rear of the hull. At the rear of the hull it's pretty flat. Because of the way the hull is designed they do center themselves on a trailer pretty well and stay put. I know they have made a lot more 22's and 25's. But you don't usually see 23'/26' Venture's/Cape Cruisers in the for sale area too long. I wonder why? :wink:
D.D.
I agree above that above thirty is not where this type of hull really shines. The rear of the hull is pretty flat as is 22' cruiser. I almost never use our trim tabs except in a hard cross wind or seas bouncing off the front quarter. Because of the weight we get anywhere from 2.7 to 3.2 mpg the best mpg is about 4500 rpms usually faster than I really want to go. The Venture/ Cape cruisers in the front have a V configuration that transforms into a pretty wide chine on each side as you look toward the rear of the hull. At the rear of the hull it's pretty flat. Because of the way the hull is designed they do center themselves on a trailer pretty well and stay put. I know they have made a lot more 22's and 25's. But you don't usually see 23'/26' Venture's/Cape Cruisers in the for sale area too long. I wonder why? :wink: D.D.
Folks,
1) According to Webster's Online Dictionary, a chop is "a short, irregular motion of waves." People often characterize chops as light, medium and heavy.
2) According to thefreedictionary, a confused sea is "a highly disturbed water surface without a single, well-defined direction of wave travel."
3) According to Wikipedia, "In boating, a following sea refers to a wave direction that matches the heading of the boat"
4) Also according to Wikipedia, a Head sea is "a sea where waves are directly opposing the motion of the ship."
So in our Marinaut, which I imagine is similar to those with CD 22's, 25's and the Venture Series, here our my experience:
A) Light chop of 6 inches: 25+ mph...smooth ride, but with vibrations
B) Medium chop of 1 foot: 22+ mph...ride a little rough
C) Heavy chop of 1.5 to 2 feet: 15 to 18 mph....bow must be brought down; boat rides rough (must wear our mouth guards)
D) Confused seas of greater than 4 feet wave height: 4 to 6 mph...incredibly rough ride and can be dangerous as one can be broadsided if not alert
E) Head seas greater than 3.5 mph: 4 mph...need football padding, helmet and three point shoulder harness due to waves falling out from under our boat
F) Following seas 3 to 4 feet: 12 to 18 mph...smooth ride, but constant throttle adjustments -- feels too much like exercise.
A deep-V may ride smoother, but is not as economical nor as spacious as our class of boat. In my opinion, our boats are perfect for protected waters, but on open water? -- on the open ocean, 40 foot deep-V yachts can be tossed around like corks in a bathtub. One of the major things my wife and I learned this season was not to make any plans as to where we specifically travel. We drive our boat out into Long Island Sound, and if the wind speed exceeds are parameters for comfort, our destination decision will be determined by the direction of the wind and waves. What makes it difficult is that our return trip may not give us the same conditions. While our class of boat may not be comfortable when conditions are very rough, it is certainly safe. And we always have a choice not to venture out when conditions exceed the safety limits for our boat.
Finally, one word about speed: we have taken our Marinaut to 35 mph, which seems to be the limit for our 115 Honda at W.O.T. It feels dangerous at that speed -- like a car traveling on ice. One would expect this effect in a planing hull. We normally travel around 22 mph, and feel safe up to around 28 mph in flat water.
Rich
1) According to Webster's Online Dictionary, a chop is "a short, irregular motion of waves." People often characterize chops as light, medium and heavy.
2) According to thefreedictionary, a confused sea is "a highly disturbed water surface without a single, well-defined direction of wave travel."
3) According to Wikipedia, "In boating, a following sea refers to a wave direction that matches the heading of the boat"
4) Also according to Wikipedia, a Head sea is "a sea where waves are directly opposing the motion of the ship."
So in our Marinaut, which I imagine is similar to those with CD 22's, 25's and the Venture Series, here our my experience:
A) Light chop of 6 inches: 25+ mph...smooth ride, but with vibrations
B) Medium chop of 1 foot: 22+ mph...ride a little rough
C) Heavy chop of 1.5 to 2 feet: 15 to 18 mph....bow must be brought down; boat rides rough (must wear our mouth guards)
D) Confused seas of greater than 4 feet wave height: 4 to 6 mph...incredibly rough ride and can be dangerous as one can be broadsided if not alert
E) Head seas greater than 3.5 mph: 4 mph...need football padding, helmet and three point shoulder harness due to waves falling out from under our boat
F) Following seas 3 to 4 feet: 12 to 18 mph...smooth ride, but constant throttle adjustments -- feels too much like exercise.
A deep-V may ride smoother, but is not as economical nor as spacious as our class of boat. In my opinion, our boats are perfect for protected waters, but on open water? -- on the open ocean, 40 foot deep-V yachts can be tossed around like corks in a bathtub. One of the major things my wife and I learned this season was not to make any plans as to where we specifically travel. We drive our boat out into Long Island Sound, and if the wind speed exceeds are parameters for comfort, our destination decision will be determined by the direction of the wind and waves. What makes it difficult is that our return trip may not give us the same conditions. While our class of boat may not be comfortable when conditions are very rough, it is certainly safe. And we always have a choice not to venture out when conditions exceed the safety limits for our boat.
Finally, one word about speed: we have taken our Marinaut to 35 mph, which seems to be the limit for our 115 Honda at W.O.T. It feels dangerous at that speed -- like a car traveling on ice. One would expect this effect in a planing hull. We normally travel around 22 mph, and feel safe up to around 28 mph in flat water.
Rich
AK Angler":2cio8k3w said:
I remember reading here - when I was reading here prior to deciding what model to buy - that a 25 loaded for cruising (specifically Jim and Joan's) was something like 8500# all up. Based on that, and the fact that the 23 Venture is heavier than the 22 C-Dory.... wouldn't 9,000# for an all-up, loaded-for-cruising 26 be in the ballpark? 'Course that's not to say everyone's "all up" is going to be the same, due to variances in loading/equipment.
(My 22, loaded and on the trailer, weighs in at around 4600# (including the tongue weight); so I figure 5,000# to be on the safe side.)
I figure my towing weight at 5100 for a 22. That may be high but add up all the components and variables and trailer and spare tire etc it gets up there. Whatever water and fuel we have, groceries gear etc. we're pretty heavy and steady compared to light 22's. We don't carry anything forward other than a spare prop, anchor and some books. We routinely run 12 knots or just a good plane into 2 ft Georgia Strait chop without much pounding. As Bob and others in other threads suggest, it is important to trim bow down. Tabs and motor. This puts more v into the water. Your 22 can take a lot and it's easier to trim the boat than buy another boat that won't be a lot different. We've crossed Georgia Strait in 3-4 foot chop 40 degrees off the bow and 15-17 knots for 1 1/2 hours Smuggler Cove to Nanaimo with very little pound or fuss. No one else out there at the time. No big deep vees or trawlers.
A poorly timed transit of Queen Charlotte strait with some heavy current/wind induced close spaced 6-7 footers had me down to 7 knots one time but when it smoothed out to 2 ft back on plane You should have tabs at least. I don't have Permatrim but do have tabs. The key is bow down in chop. It'll pound once in a while but it is amazing how smooth it can be. George
A poorly timed transit of Queen Charlotte strait with some heavy current/wind induced close spaced 6-7 footers had me down to 7 knots one time but when it smoothed out to 2 ft back on plane You should have tabs at least. I don't have Permatrim but do have tabs. The key is bow down in chop. It'll pound once in a while but it is amazing how smooth it can be. George
I appreciate all the good discussion. Lots of good info and perspective.
The fact is, every boat is a compromise in some way. I'm looking for a boat that's a little faster and a little more comfortable at 15 to 20 mph than my C Dory 22 in moderate chop that's light enough for a 1/2 ton pickup, easy to single hand, enclosed head w/shower that is affordable to buy and economical to operate in Pensacola/North Carolina type mostly protected waters. Having said all of that and having read everything I've read, it almost looks like I need to gravitate towards the C Dory 25. The next closest thing in a deep V is a Sea Sport which fully fitted out is almost twice the price to buy and operate.
The fact is, every boat is a compromise in some way. I'm looking for a boat that's a little faster and a little more comfortable at 15 to 20 mph than my C Dory 22 in moderate chop that's light enough for a 1/2 ton pickup, easy to single hand, enclosed head w/shower that is affordable to buy and economical to operate in Pensacola/North Carolina type mostly protected waters. Having said all of that and having read everything I've read, it almost looks like I need to gravitate towards the C Dory 25. The next closest thing in a deep V is a Sea Sport which fully fitted out is almost twice the price to buy and operate.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Rich, I will chip in on your question to Dr. Bob. In a boat like ours, you do not want a bow up attitude. That will have you pounding your kidneys, and the boat. Since you have used a permatrim, you're already aware of the ability to keep the nose down and cutting into oncoming waves.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Bryant":1wj52ak5 said:
Something I see here in Oregon are boats like old Glassplys and Olympics that have had the I/O removed, the transom beefed, and an outboard mounted on an extension bracket. Probably a quarter of the cost of a Sea Sport.
George and Constant Craving got me thinking. Why can we move along at up to 15 knots into a 3 foot head sea, but when it hits 4 foot head seas, we really can't make forward progress, and are lucky if we can go 3.5 knots? Having traveled on both coasts, I think Long Island is worse in many ways than the waters we traveled in the PNW. Our waves our steep and of short periods, and at times can become so confused, that there is no smooth direction in which to travel. This is due to swift wind changes, complex tidal movements, heavy currents, and very shallow water. Once past Long Island Sound, the waves are of longer periods and higher, but much easier to navigate.
So in a 4 foot head sea, with those of you who have Permatrim, can you limit bow rise with Permatrim at slower speeds of 7 knots and maintain forward progress in a reasonable way. I think that it is the heart of the question. I can tell you that most of the boats in the Sound are deep-V, and they don't keep the bow down -- they keep it up, but of course, their boats way two, three or even four times as much as ours.
So in a 4 foot head sea, with those of you who have Permatrim, can you limit bow rise with Permatrim at slower speeds of 7 knots and maintain forward progress in a reasonable way. I think that it is the heart of the question. I can tell you that most of the boats in the Sound are deep-V, and they don't keep the bow down -- they keep it up, but of course, their boats way two, three or even four times as much as ours.
George and Constant Craving got me thinking. Why can we move along at up to 15 knots into a 3 foot head sea, but when it hits 4 foot head seas, we really can't make forward progress, and are lucky if we can go 3.5 knots? Having traveled on both coasts, I think Long Island Sound is worse in many ways than the waters we traveled in the PNW. Our waves our steep and of short periods, and at times can become so confused, that there is no smooth direction in which to travel. This is due to swift wind changes, complex tidal movements, heavy current velocity, and very shallow water. Once past Long Island Sound, the waves are of longer periods and higher, but much easier to navigate, and much more like the PNW.
So in a 4 foot head sea, with those of you who have Permatrim, can you limit bow rise with Permatrim at slower speeds of 7 knots and maintain forward progress in a reasonable way. Does it keep you from pitch poling? I think that it is the heart of the question. I can tell you that most of the boats in the Sound are deep-V, and they don't keep the bow down -- they keep it up, but of course, their boats way two, three or even four times as much as ours.
Rich
So in a 4 foot head sea, with those of you who have Permatrim, can you limit bow rise with Permatrim at slower speeds of 7 knots and maintain forward progress in a reasonable way. Does it keep you from pitch poling? I think that it is the heart of the question. I can tell you that most of the boats in the Sound are deep-V, and they don't keep the bow down -- they keep it up, but of course, their boats way two, three or even four times as much as ours.
Rich
C-Nile":o0aj3px4 said:
Permatrims and trim tabs have no effect on bow attitude (or anything else) when the boat is at rest. They have maximum (and potentially catastrophic!) effect at WOT. The slower the speed of the boat, the smaller the influence of the foils or tabs. They really start to make the most significance difference at planing speeds. Weight distribution is the only way to trim a boat at rest or at very slow speed. I pack for trips with this in mind, and have some things that don't need to be lashed down ready to be heaved forward or aft as circumstances dictate.
Going into steep chop at slow speed, I do not rely just on Permatrims. I move some weight forward. Likewise, in big following seas, I move some weight back. Head on into 4-foot seas that are at all steep is not going to be comfortable no matter what, however.
In the right (wrong) conditions, some deep V's riding slowly and bow-up in big waves can be wallowing nightmares, while corks like a C-Dory or Venture do better.
We have owned the 16,22 and we still have a 23 cape cruiser (venture) hull . We have a f-115 yamaha with trim tabs no permatrim . with our 22cd cruiser we had trim tabs and a florida permatrim (alum fin similar to permatrim)The weight difference is about 800lb same equipment . and the deadrise is a few degrees difference . The cc-23 has a higher sweet spot about 20knots 23mph at about 4600rpm . the cd-22 had a 16-18 mph sweet spot . The mileage was about the same on both boats 3.8-4.5 mpg for both boats . We live and boat is sw florida so the Gulf is very shallow So when we go with our cruise club I usually stay behind one of the bigger boats 65ft searays etc . This produces big swells which are a lot easier to navigate then short chop. If i find myself out in 2-3 ft I slow down put trim tabs down and trim engine down and enjoy the 18-20mph ride no problems .BTW the 23 rides a lot better then the cd22 in any sea . and a lot more cockpit room 4 chairs vs 2 chairs . Once you ride a 23 its hard to go back down to a 22 . Like Dave said they dont stick around that long when being sold .