New Poo Regulations ??

My understanding is that it's already illegal to discharge untreated sewage in Puget Sound or any other inland waterway. Currently discharge of sewage treated with a Type I or Type II MSD is legal in Puget Sound. Vessels must be 3 miles offshore to discharge untreated sewage legally.

It seems the only thing that will change in Puget Sound if it is deemed a No Discharge Zone is that boats equipped with Type I and Type II MSDs will not be able to discharge treated waste.

Practically speaking, I don't think this regulation will make one bit of difference. It's very difficult to catch someone in the act of discharging sewage, since it's typically macerated and discharged quickly when underway. The people who are currently discharging illegally probably will continue to do so, and I suspect many of the people who currently use Type I and Type II MSDs will continue to discharge treated sewage with virtually no risk of getting caught.

I wonder how many vessels were caught illegally discharging sewage in Puget Sound last year?
 
rogerbum":9ftg8ati said:
... It's generally pretty sterile. ...
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It kind of depends on what you mean by sterile. The standard definition of sterile is "free from living germs or microorganisms". While this may be true with urine straight from the kidneys (if you don't have any sort of kidney infection), urine can be contaminated by bacteria in the bladder or by bacteria in the passages on the way out of the body. People can have active bacteria in their bladders without any ill effects.

Probably the bigger issue with urine is the metabolic byproducts that are excreted. In addition to the normal body waste products, this is includes excess vitamins and minerals if you eat a diet that contains excess or take supplements. Medications can also be found in urine, either excess unmetabolized medicine or metabolic byproducts. There is evidence that these sort of human byproducts can be harmful to the environment. For example, hormones used in human birth control pills are often found in fish. (See http://www.livescience.com/20532-birth- ... ution.html.)

Human bodies also excrete trace amounts of the industrial chemicals that we are exposed to everyday. Metabolites of BSPA can be found in urine.

While human urine can be "sterile", it is hardly pure.
 
The long-enshrined belief that urine is sterile is giving way to the notion that the urinary tract hosts a bona fıde microbiome, according to several investigators who spoke during the symposium, “How Knowledge from the Human Microbiome Projects Will Change the Practice of Clinical Microbiology,” convened last May in Denver during the 2013 ASM General Meeting.

Thus, they say, when urine specimens from healthy patients test positive for bacteria, it may no longer be acceptable for clinicians to dismiss those results as mere contamination or “asymptomatic bacteriuria.”


The microorganisms that one detects in urine depend on how it is analyzed. Because Escherichia coli accounts for upwards of 90% of all acute cases of urinary tract infections (UTI), clinical laboratories typically analyze urine under culture conditions that favor this well-known pathogen. Also, labs tend to reject any culture result that falls below an arbitrary threshold, which may be as high as 105 CFU/ml. Further, labs typically disqualify mixed growths because they are deemed more likely to reflect contamination or to contain bacteria that are not common pathogens of the urinary tract. No wonder so many doctors have little idea what might be hiding behind “negative” culture fındings from clinical lab urine analyses.

full article at
https://www.microbemagazine.org/index.p ... temid=1532
 
If it was ONLY "P" and "Poo" the problem might be manageable.

I have attended a number of lectures on the subject of plastic degradation and medical/pharmaceutical products which are not treated by waste treatment plants and it is downright scary. These things are very measurable in Puget Sound (and elsewhere) but the long term effects on the food chain are hard to quantify in a manner that people will believe.

Try this website and click on the Marine debris tag.
http://www.pugetsoundkeeper.org/aboutpu ... pollution/


Just waiting for some Baseball (or other sportsperson) to come up with the defense of "I swam in the ocean" when accused of having ingested illegal substances. :shock:

M
 
20dauntless":f55z5874 said:
It seems the only thing that will change in Puget Sound if it is deemed a No Discharge Zone is that boats equipped with Type I and Type II MSDs will not be able to discharge treated waste.

Practically speaking, I don't think this regulation will make one bit of difference. It's very difficult to catch someone in the act of discharging sewage, since it's typically macerated and discharged quickly when underway. The people who are currently discharging illegally probably will continue to do so, and I suspect many of the people who currently use Type I and Type II MSDs will continue to discharge treated sewage with virtually no risk of getting caught.
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I agree that this is the realistic outcome of these regulations. There are many harbors which put fluroscene dye tablets. Here is a summary of Avalon, Catalina Island's solution:

Dye Tablet Program
Starting in 1988, the City of Avalon has implemented a dye tablet program for all recreational boats that enter Avalon Harbor. All recreational boats that enter and moor in the harbor are boarded by the City’s Harbor Patrol and dye tablets are put in all heads (toilets) on the boat and then the head is flushed so the dye enters the boat’s holding tank. If a boat discharges any of their holding tanks into the harbor, the dye is immediately seen in the surrounding waters. If this type of discharge occurs, the boat is immediately removed from Avalon Harbor and prohibited from re-entering for one year. The boat owner is also fined by the City for the illegal discharge. The City has a “no tolerance” rule for this type of behavior and enforces this rule strongly. This dye tablet program has been a model for other similar programs across the nation.

Bird Exclusion Wires
In 2000, a microbial source tracking study that was small in scope concluded that there was no evidence of human fecal pollution in Avalon Bay. As a result the City focused efforts on birds because bird waste can be a source of the high bacteria levels in the Bay. Over the years the City has increased the number of bird exclusion wires throughout the City, especially near restaurants and shops near the waters edge and on the green pleasure pier. This helps to keep gulls and other birds off of places where they may normally perch. Also, signs have been put up throughout the City to encourage people not to attract birds by feeding them. In addition to dealing with the general bird population, pigeons were captured and relocated to the mainland by professional bird handlers to reduce their population and their possible impacts to water quality in the Bay.
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Also there is a reason that Coliform are used as a standard: They occur in human intestine, -it is easy and cheap to both grow and measure in the lab.
There are a number of other bacteria which have various survival times in salt water. However, the number of bacteria, amount of nitrogenous waste products, and even drugs etc are extremely small from what is put in the water from urine which is discharge from boats. (Agricultural and industrial amounts are many times greater). (If urine were a problem, then it might make the composting type of toilet illegal) There are a number of studies which show that amounts of both legal pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs (and their breakdown products) are found in the discharge from municipal waste water treatment.
 
A digression: talk of drugs detected in waters affected by sewage outfalls, etc. reminded me of a med tech who worked in a local facility served by a huge septic tank and drainfield ... no municipal sewer hookup available. Tidying up one day, he discovered a stash of outdated antibiotics. Rather than toss 'em in the trash, he flushed them all down the sink with plenty of water ... feeling virtuous ... until the next day, when the septic tank bacterial culture cratered and his agency had to foot the bill for a pump out and inoculation of fresh bacteria to get things flowing again. His uniformed superiors were pretty hacked off!

Tyboo will know where this happened if he thinks about the Port of Astoria Airport. :wink:
 
I'm no biologist, but even I know you don't flush antibiotics into a septic system. You need the good bacteria for the system to function. Same w/ salt water aquariums.

My FIL manages the the Lake Stevens sewer district and they just built a new multi-million $$ sewage treatment plant. One of the steps involves bacteria alive on long spaghetti-like plastic tubes over 6 ft long that hang down on racks by the thousands. The sewage passes through it and the bacteria "eat" it all. The end effluent is crystal clear and beats Nat'l clean water standards.

He will also regale you with stories of what should be flushed and what shouldn't, based on his 20+ yrs of experience. Dental floss is BAD; it creates nets which creates blockages, which creates 1' of "brown water" in your basement. The simple rule is this: w/ the exception of TP, if it doesn't "come out of you, it shouldn't go down the toilet". :wink:
 
Roger,

Thanks for the references. That is exactly what I heard along with some other alarming details like you can actually tell what day it is (sometimes) by doing water analysis in the Sound. Thanksgiving and Valentines day showed massive peaks of "relevant products".

Didn't see any evidence about opening day of Duck hunting so Tom is probably safe :-)

Not to go too far off topic but the issue with plastic in its many forms is also very worrying.

This article points out one fact that is largely unknown about "micro-plastic" particles getting back in to the food chain. Does anyone know how many of our "essential" products already contain micro-plastics??
Since it's still Winter and we know the answer to the Twins argument, Google it.

http://www.biwatershedcouncil.org/plast ... rever.html

M
 
It is quite a jump from "micro plastics" to "nano plastics", which might actually get into animal flesh/food stocks. The micro plastics probably are mostly coming thru the storm drains and run offs. We do not see any in our area where there is a quaternary treatment sewage plant putting out about 9 million gallons of water a day. (Near drinking water quality output)

However there is a problem in some areas with human cosmetics and cleansing products--as well as micro plastics as a break down product from washing of synthetic clothing--and the laundry water not being adequately filtered at the treatment plant.
 
Bob,

You are 100% right, and plastics are a real problem from the large chunks all the way down to the nano-plastics which can actually be ingested by some of the most basic life forms on the planet, and we know where that leads.

Being realistic I don't see any hope of reconciliation between "pure" commercial interests and long term (but really hard to demonstrate in less than 2 or 3 decades) effects on life. Sad but true.

It ticks me off to see us pumping nano-particles into the oceans via our toothpaste etc. in the secure knowledge that it will be harder to prove any wrong-doing than it is to convince people that the simple fact of our existence is a threat to ourselves and everything around us.

As was already said, "we have found the enemy" I doubt that we will ever admit it !!

"Nuff" said. My rant is done. My daffodils are budding and it will soon be time to go a wandering.

M

Now about them twins.......

M
 
ssobol said:
Doesn't Victoria BC still discharge untreated sewage into the Straight of Juan de Fuca (granted its pretty far down)?
Victoria does indeed dump their screened sewage directly into the straight of Juan de Fueca, however, the provincal goverment has mandated a sewage treatment plant be built at a cost of 1Billion dollars. The credible judgment of marine scientists, public health officials and engineers that the present discharge of the screened effluent into a unique marine receiving environment, through the two deep-sea outfalls, is highly effective in treating the effluent, has largely been ignored.
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Geez! Sounds like between Port Angeles and Victoria they're trying to change Juan de Fuca into Juan de Fecal………….

Actually, San Francisco has the same problem. The storm drain system and sewer system in San Francisco are one and the same over much of the city. That was the way it was set up years ago, and it's never been changed. Heavy rainfall overloads the sewage treatment plants, and the resultant overflow goes directly into the bay, Fortunately much of that goes out the Golden Gate on outgoing tides soon thereafter, but the overall problem still exists.

Other, less politically powerful entities would probably have been forced to correct the problem by the state or federal government, but San Francisco has a lot of clout and doesn't want to be forced to spend that kind of money…………...

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Just read to today that when Washington DC has an overflow after a storm, "The toxic brew is so bad that in the 24 hours after an overflow, it's dangerous to even touch the water." in the Potomac and Anacostia Rivers. Not a very good showing for the nation's capitol.
 
ssobol":19kpovlw said:
Just read to today that when Washington DC has an overflow after a storm, "The toxic brew is so bad that in the 24 hours after an overflow, it's dangerous to even touch the water." in the Potomac and Anacostia Rivers. Not a very good showing for the nation's capitol.
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Surprised? It's just a visual of what is coming out of Washington and supports an
old idea now confirmed.

Aye.
 
AstoriaDave":2mkuhbr9 said:
Roger, ever wondered how many of those older cabins along the Hood Canal have straight shots to the water?
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I would say close to zero. My grandfather's cabin has it's original gravity septic, but his cabin was built back from the water. His neighbor is on the water and has one of the last "grandfathered" septic system where both the tank and the drainfield are under the cabin and in the bulkhead at the high tide mark.

Both of these may still be allowed, but Mason County has been fairly aggressive in requiring updates if you apply for any county permit. Want a new roof? Put in heat? Electricity? You will need to pass a septic inspection. A neighbor put on a new roof and the county was out within a few months (aerial photos?) and explaining requirements. He now has a pressurized septic system just like mine. State of the art. The county even puts some kind of tracer chemical in the system and checks on the beach for signs of a failed septic. Mine showed evidence of effluent as far as 12 feet from the field, but it's 400 feet back from the water.

If you drive along the North Shore Road, you'll see a lot places where the pavement has been trenched across the road from the old cabins. That's where over the years the owners have put in pressurized systems that now pump waste under the road and up the hill the required distance for the drain field. I don't know what that distance is now, but they were discussing 800 feet a few years back. I put in my tank and drain field years before building to ensure that I wouldn't get caught having to pump hundreds of feet back and up. My septic pump would probably have had the same size electrical breaker as my stove.

Recent studies on south Hood Canal (because it doesn't "flush" enough) have indicated that run off from lawns (fertilizer and pet poo) is now the major threat. Those few remaining old cabins have lots of new competition.

Mark
 
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