More on Navigation "apps" versus navigation electr

M

maryvmcclain

New member
Hi, I've been reading a lot about these Android apps here on C-Brats (and also the Ipad apps) for navigation. We have both a Raymarine c-70 with depth sounder and chart plotter) on the new boat. (We also have a handheld Garmin GPS for the car...which I'm not sure can be used for boating.. but I'm putting it out there.

I'm sure we don't have lakes chips for either of them... yet.

We will mostly be boating on Lake Mead at first, and hope to go to the Lake Powell gathering in Sept.

What is the first investment we should make and why? [/b]

I haven't researched this at all, but I personally hate buying a chip for some specific device if we can invest in a generic device instead. On the other hand, Rob believes in specific devices designed for navigation. But neither of us really know what our new-to-us Raymarine c-70 can do, or why there is so much positive "buzz" about the tablet app solutions as supplements/replacements.

Thanks!
Mary
 
Mary,

I'd buy an iPad with the GPS/3G installed and then buy Navionics. You might have to spend $700 for a newer iPad with the GPS installed (it isn't included without 3G but you can buy a cheaper iPad and get an external GPS puck). Navionic will cost around $20 and will include the option to download ALL U.S. and Canadian charts. That's one of the huge advantages of an iPad (or iPhone/Android) chart plotter. For what you spend on 3-4 mapping chips, you can buy the iPad and all the charts you'll ever need PLUS you have an iPad for email, music, videos etc. It's annoying to pay $100-250 per mapping chip when you can get all the charts for $20-25 in an App form (and download updates ones as they come out).
 
I use an Ipad with an external GPS puck. I downloaded Navimatics East Coast maps. I only use my Garmin GPS for backup now. I also bought a Ram Mount for Ipad w/ cover. The Navimatics charts are surprisingly accurate and I like it very much.
 
I have the raymarine c70 but seldom use it since I bought my iPad. I downloaded navionics and it works beautifully for us (remember to lock the screen so that it doesn't rotate when the boat bounces). As Roger said a bonus of the iPad is that you can search the web, post reports, and watch movies. When Penny and I spend the night somewhere we just move the iPad from where it was situated for navigation and watch a movie that we downloaded earlier.
 
Both the Ipad and the Android Pads each have their own advantages. Both use Navionics charts. The charts for N America, US and Canada Marine and Lakes cost did cost $49 for the tablet version and $15 for the smartphone version. Be sure you buy the right version. - Looks like there is a special on the apps on Itunes 2012-05-27 _ $7 and $27 for iphone and ipad respectively.

Ipad be sure you get the one that has 3 or 4G Wireless capability in addition to WiFi and don't buy the hype about aGPS which they call assisted GPS that uses the cell towers its not very accurate in S Puget Sound. You still need the wireless Ipad even if you don't sign up for wireless service to get the GPS. Or buy an external GPS that plugs into Ipad. I spend several hrs last weekend at TMobile, Verizon and ATT talking about this and no one really understood that GPS is from satellites [no charge from the wireless carrier] [paid for by our taxes in stead] -Every carrier in the Olympia mall insisted you had to have the service to use the GPS - and they kept telling me GPS would not work out of cell tower range. upsetting actually that they don't know their products. Quite a few mariners in our Marina use the IPad and the charts are amazing.

I chose the Android Samsung Galaxy 10.1 Tab second version - w the new Ice Cream sandwich OS that has 16 gb internal memory but also has micro SD slot where you can add another 32gb - The Galaxy tablet is available now at Costco I think it was $379 or $399, you can buy 16 gb card there for good price as well. Costco has 90 day return policy on the electronics - also have good warranty beyond that.

The Navionics web site [I think it was in the faq] indicated that GPS is more accurate w Android than IPad, for unstated reasons. Not sure thats an issue as my friends hear don't seem to have a problem.

Other considerations> If you buy a Navionics chip for your chart plotter, right now you get a free application that will download to Mac or PC [no gps] [5 devices] that is helpful for route planning on a big screen at home. Then if you register w Navionics you can sync that chart to their server, and it will sync charts w your iphone or Android device. This has been most helpful for me as two of us on different continents, plan sailing trip. Each can edit and sync to main server. Quite frankly the Mac version is not so stable so save often, the Android version seems more stable so on long routes I do it on the tab then sync.

Now on newer chart plotters like the RayMarine E7 you can have [iphone or ipad now and supposedly Android OS soon] sync the route directly on board via the built in local intranet wifi between E7 and Iphone ipad. or you can export from the the pc mac app to the micro sd card and then import to your chart plotter [be sure you don't use the navionics chip to do the import or you may override your new charts.] with the Raymarine E7 chart plotter, the iphone and android devices can also act as a dumb terminal - ie: you can be anywhere on the boat and see what is on your screen on the main chart plotter. Furuno actually has two way communication between handheld and the chart-plotter and that will probably eventually happen w most of the big chart plotter companies.

In any event, IOS and Android are both good systems, their competition is helpful to the end user. What is not available on one OS often becomes available in a few months.
Have fun
Jim
 
jstates":1bj50xvw said:
. . . -Every carrier in the Olympia mall insisted you had to have the service to use the GPS - and they kept telling me GPS would not work out of cell tower range. upsetting actually that they don't know their products. . . .
Click to expand...

Man Oh Man, does that ever hit the nail on the head! I had exactly the same experience in the same mall, probably at all the same stores, a couple of months ago. Unbelievable. It's right up their with the electronics department clerk at Freddy's who asked me, "Now, how many amps are there in a volt?" while "assisting" me in finding the right 12V phone charger. BTW, I am currently enjoying the heck out of my $9.99 TRACFONE with Verizon service, after being told by every mall phone store I visited that such a thing was not possible.

I would definitely rely more on what I hear on this site than what the average retailer is going to tell you.

My only comment on the larger question here would be about ruggedness. Depending on the area of use and extent of reliance, you might want to think about the relative robustness of your set-up. And, again depending on use and reliance, I definitely favor redundancy.
 
This year was our 10th trip to Lake Powell, and the first where we had charting or a App. (There are bouys about every mile, with numbers on them, and each canyon has a sign on a bouy which tells you where you are--the name of the canyon! In the past, we did save lat and long on favorite sites, so that we could easily return---if the water level was the same (never has been)

Here was my experience--I had detailed Topo charts on t he I pad, I had The Navionics i pad (it is a wireless, version I and works fine==with a very accurate GPS. _ I also have the Garmin inland lakes chips (SW I believe, which has most of hte lakes. Of the bunch, the Garmin was the most accurate. There were some places where there werre obvious errors on the Navionics charts! The Topo does not give you the level of water, but youc an trace the level more easily due to frequent contour lines).

All in all I liked the Garmin chart best--but when the Navionics was correct it was great--mostly becaue of a bearing line--and you can see just where you are headed into a canyon. The error showed land mass where there was none--ie an error in contours.
 
This year was our 10th trip to Lake Powell, and the first where we had charting or a App. (There are bouys about every mile, with numbers on them, and each canyon has a sign on a bouy which tells you where you are--the name of the canyon! In the past, we did save lat and long on favorite sites, so that we could easily return---if the water level was the same (never has been)

Here was my experience--I had detailed Topo charts on t he I pad, I had The Navionics i pad (it is a wireless, version I and works fine==with a very accurate GPS. _ I also have the Garmin inland lakes chips (SW I believe, which has most of hte lakes. Of the bunch, the Garmin was the most accurate. There were some places where there werre obvious errors on the Navionics charts! The Topo does not give you the level of water, but youc an trace the level more easily due to frequent contour lines).

All in all I liked the Garmin chart best--but when the Navionics was correct it was great--mostly becaue of a bearing line--and you can see just where you are headed into a canyon. The error showed land mass where there was none--ie an error in contours.
 
I have a question for all you app users. so what do you do about depth? I know the depth lines are on the chart but that is not reality, just a representation of reality. I have always kept one eye on my depth finder even with the best of chartplotters running. In lakes you can not trust just a chart plotter unless you know the elevation of the water on the day you are there. I am used to lake that are rising and dropping on a daily basic. Unlike the salt, where tides will go up and down up to 10ft, a west coast lake can drop 20 to 30 ft between visits. I have seen ski boats left high and dry over night on a falling lake and that tide is not coming back up until spring. :cry

So I know a few people have talked about going with just a tablet and nothing else. I just wanted to bring up the idea that a depth finder is still needed even if you don't fish.
 
Yup, we have a garmin depth finder that we use in addition to our iPad. You are right that it's a good thing to know exactly how much water is below the boat. When we run the iPad handles the charting, the raymarine does the radar, and the garmin does the depth. We also have an iPhone with navionics so we have multiple redundancies.
 
I really like my iPad for navigation. A good mount is a must (I use a RAM mount and it is very solid) and the screen can sometimes be a bit difficult to see when there are bright reflections. iPads have several choices for marine navigation, my favorite of which is iNavX which can use vector and raster charts from a variety of sources.

I have a basic sounder that just tells me the depth. I don't fish so I don't need a fancy sounder.

No way to get radar onto a tablet yet (unless it's streamed from a new MFD), but that shouldn't be a problem on inland lakes.

The iPad is also great for internet browsing, playing music and movies, etc. Much more versatile than an MFD.

Raymarine uses Navionics charts, so the issues that Dr. Bob found with the Navionics iPad app at Lake Powell would likely also be issues on the chart card you'd buy for your plotter. As far as I know Navionics chart data is the same across all their platforms.

I'd figure out what charts you want to use where you cruise and see if an app is available to get those charts on a tablet. If not, the MFD route may make sense.
 
Ok, I've heard all of you loud and clear and I really want to get a tablet.... But something confuses me...cell phone access is not required to get a GPS signal on a tablet that has GPS...but because these tablets actually have something called A-GPS, not the same as what is in a "real" GPS. I also read that, periodically, you do need to connect to a wireless signal to double "lock in" your location. For example, if you are driving around your own city you don't need to connect to wireless but for the first time... but if you are traveling long distances and arrive in a new area, you probably need to synch things up again. Does anything about this make sense to those of you who use tablets GPS WITHOUT 3G?

I am reluctant to pay for a dataplan because, except when we're boating, we always seem have wifi somewhere.

Mary
 
Mary,
I bought a "XGPS150" made by Dual. It communicates with the iPad via "Bluetooth". It is "approved" for iPad, iPod, iPhone. It gives your true GPS location to the software as you go. I have never needed Wi-Fi because I have the entire map I need downloaded on the iPad.

Mike
 
RobMcClain":2yy2oy0x said:
Ok, I've heard all of you loud and clear and I really want to get a tablet.... But something confuses me...cell phone access is not required to get a GPS signal on a tablet that has GPS...but because these tablets actually have something called A-GPS, not the same as what is in a "real" GPS.
Mary
Click to expand...

Mary, a tablet that has a GPS has a "real" GPS. What you need the wifi for (or 3G) is to display your position on a map. There are some "apps" that will display it without a 3G or wifi signal but these apps are very expensive (think $50) and come from places like Garmin and TomTom.

It's complicated.

Charlie
 
I am on the verge of buying a tablet myself - in my case probably an iPad. As far as iPads go, from what I understand (and please someone correct me if I am wrong), if you buy a 3G model (they all have w-fi as a "base," but 3G is an upgrade that must be in the model when you buy it), then you have a "normal" GPS, just like any handheld GPS would have. In other words, you only need to be able to "see" satellites (like any GPS needs to be able to do), and NOT any sort of telephone or 3G signal. Thus, you do not need any "plan" to use the GPS (satellites are "free" to use). Again, if I have this right, you also don't need to "initialize" the GPS, any more than any other GPS needs that (again, they all have to be able to detect the satellites).

So, you don't need any data plan to use the GPS. You also don't need any data plan to use wi-fi. It's built in (you just need a wi-fi signal, like any typical laptop does). Where you DO need a plan (Verizon or AT&T) is to use the 3G feature (i.e. cell phone type data signal for web surfing or etc). But you can stop and start the plan (it's not contract, but is month to month).

So, for iPads, when you buy one, you have to make certain choices that are "permanent."

1) Wi-fi only (basic model), or wi-fi plus 3G (only this latter model has "real" GPS and it works without any "plan").

2) If 3G service is desired, which carrier, Verizon or AT&T (Apple website shows basic outline of both carrier's plans)?

3) How much storage (16gb, 32gb, 64gb).

I do believe that if you have a wi-fi only model you can hook up a separate GPS puck, but if buying new, I can't imagine not just getting the 3G model with the GPS built in - plus of course you can use the 3G option. However I'm sure there are circumstances where that would be a welcome option - like say you already have a wi-fi only one, or someone gives you one, etc.).

Sunbeam :hot
 
Captains Cat":gk2uoci1 said:
What you need the wifi for (or 3G) is to display your position on a map. There are some "apps" that will display it without a 3G or wifi signal but these apps are very expensive (think $50) and come from places like Garmin and TomTom.
Click to expand...

Okay this is news to me. So if a person were out of cell phone range (i.e 3G), the charts would be less useful (basically like paper charts, although cheaper and easier to store)? It seems like a GPS signal should be enough to show one's position... no? Does an app like INavx show one's position without having a cell phone signal (i.e. 3G)? Could you elaborate on this a bit?

I'm glad you brought this up as I had not appreciated it prior to reading your post. It's something I should find out more about before I buy an iPad.
 
Sunbeam":3entc8sq said:
I am on the verge of buying a tablet myself - in my case probably an iPad. As far as iPads go, from what I understand (and please someone correct me if I am wrong), if you buy a 3G model (they all have w-fi as a "base," but 3G is an upgrade that must be in the model when you buy it), then you have a "normal" GPS, just like any handheld GPS would have. In other words, you only need to be able to "see" satellites (like any GPS needs to be able to do), and NOT any sort of telephone or 3G signal. Thus, you do not need any "plan" to use the GPS (satellites are "free" to use). Again, if I have this right, you also don't need to "initialize" the GPS, any more than any other GPS needs that (again, they all have to be able to detect the satellites).

So, you don't need any data plan to use the GPS. You also don't need any data plan to use wi-fi. It's built in (you just need a wi-fi signal, like any typical laptop does). Where you DO need a plan (Verizon or AT&T) is to use the 3G feature (i.e. cell phone type data signal for web surfing or etc). But you can stop and start the plan (it's not contract, but is month to month).

So, for iPads, when you buy one, you have to make certain choices that are "permanent."

1) Wi-fi only (basic model), or wi-fi plus 3G (only this latter model has "real" GPS and it works without any "plan").

2) If 3G service is desired, which carrier, Verizon or AT&T (Apple website shows basic outline of both carrier's plans)?

3) How much storage (16gb, 32gb, 64gb).

I do believe that if you have a wi-fi only model you can hook up a separate GPS puck, but if buying new, I can't imagine not just getting the 3G model with the GPS built in - plus of course you can use the 3G option. However I'm sure there are circumstances where that would be a welcome option - like say you already have a wi-fi only one, or someone gives you one, etc.).

Sunbeam :hot
Click to expand...

That's correct. A 3G (or now 4G with iPad 3) iPad has a built in GPS chip that functions entirely independently of any internet connection.
 
Sunbeam":850aziey said:
Captains Cat":850aziey said:
What you need the wifi for (or 3G) is to display your position on a map. There are some "apps" that will display it without a 3G or wifi signal but these apps are very expensive (think $50) and come from places like Garmin and TomTom.
Click to expand...

Okay this is news to me. So if a person were out of cell phone range (i.e 3G), the charts would be less useful (basically like paper charts, although cheaper and easier to store)? It seems like a GPS signal should be enough to show one's position... no? Does an app like INavx show one's position without having a cell phone signal (i.e. 3G)? Could you elaborate on this a bit?

I'm glad you brought this up as I had not appreciated it prior to reading your post. It's something I should find out more about before I buy an iPad.
Click to expand...

Apps like Navionics, Navimatics, and iNavX all store the charts on the device itself. There is no need for an internet connection for their operation.

Of course, when you initially purchase the app you'll need an internet connection to download it, and any updates also require an internet connection.
 
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