Looking For What Boat I Need

R

RobLL

New member
I have been thinking I really would like to explore much of the Puget Sound and Hood Canal (and more of the Salish Sea should I like all of this). To do this I need a boat. And I think I would enjoy winter cruising (Avoiding storms). At first I was looking at Nordic, then Ranger Tugs. But upon thinking about it, I decided the first for sure and probably the second are just more boat than I want. While I preferred a diesel the next step smaller is a C-Dory, either the 22 or 25s with outboard(s).

I was talking with a broker who suggested I look at a sub-25 Bayliner. They do have much of what I want. Inside pilot house, bunk, small galley, and important if spouse is to join me a separate head. But I do not want to pay for or look after a huge V-8 engine, gas vapors, high fuel consumption and et cetera. It is also curious that used 25 foot Bayliners are just $25K or so, and 25 foot C-Dorys are a lot more. Any reason.

C-Dorys come with trailers, I can store one near Silverdale, and launch on the various borders of the Kitsap Pennisula. I think I would prefer a 25, but a 22 would do the trick except for no separate head. Has anyone fabricated a low compact tent to temporarily position one in the cockpit?

I am taking the USCG aux. classes this fall in Shoreline, and will decide toward the end of the year whether I go ahead with all of this. At this time the C-Dory looks much better to me. Suggestions and comments appreciated.
 
We looked at Bayliner 27's as we were in the boat shopping mode back in 2005. when we went out on the Bayliner we were struck by several things: all the bling, how high we were above the water, how unstable the boat seemed in pretty calm water, how big the fuel tank was and how small the range was with all that fuel. We looked at construction, resale, reputation, and...a very big thing for us...what kind of boating community we'd be joining. Last things first, the C-Brats were about 30-40% of our decision to get our 22, with the Bayliner we'd be pretty much on our own, no real community, no built in friends advisors, etc. Our 22 carries less than 1/2 the fuel and provides 1 1/2 times the range of the Bayliner. Construction reputation for the Bayliner: mass produced, cranked out with little expectation of useful life beyond 5-10 years at most; C-Dory more hand made, expected to last for decades, bulletproof, retains most of its value so much that older C-Dory's sometimes sell for more than they cost new. Seaworthiness: We've had our 22 in really big ugly water several times, water I'd never have dared taking the Bayliner in. We have complete confidence in our boat. The C-Dory is not as dressy on the interior, it is much more utilitarian but I can find and fix everything in it. To me, the Bayliner would be a good boat for Lake Washington, for Puget Sound in good to moderate weather, good for a day or two of "cruising"; we've been out in our 22 for a month and a half at a time and have no reservations about taking it to the Broughtons, the Inside Passage, etc. summer or winter. The Bayliner it is a good boat for sunshine boating in protected waters and if I bought one it would be with the understanding that it would have little value after just a few years. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it and...of course I'm completely objective!
 
Barry has got it spot on. When I was power boat hunting, I checked out one Bayliner. I think I was on and off in less than 5 minutes. "NFB", not for me thank you.
It would not surprise me if the earlier model C-Dory's fetched double the original purchase price. How many other boats can you say that about?

Martin.
 
C-Dory is not Bayliner....nor are Seasports, Osprey, and a handful of others. Why??? Quality is expensive. That isn't to say the Bayliner doesn't make a good boat. They are a decent quality boat that a lot of people like. In fact, there are tons of them around. When you spend your money on a C-Dory you get a great hull design, all the necessary features, excellent economy, a low profile sea worthy design, and a resale value that does not fall like a rock.

Bayliner puts a lot of focus on "bling" in hopes you don't notice the gel coat, the staples holding it together, the generally average construction, and the fit and finish. They also give you a LOT of horsepower and you can guess why. And that is because they are heavy as heck and take tons of power to operate.

Now that not to say I wouldn't own one as I have. It was a good little boat, but not in the same league as C-Dory. Sadly, even with care, it slowly fell apart over the years.
 
Welcome, Rob,

Your plans sound fun - there is so much to explore in your area, and off-season cruising has a certain magic to it, if one is comfortable (warm, etc.). It seems "natural" to me to consider the three boats you mentioned, as they have some similarity (in my mind). Or rather, it seems that the same type of boater might be attracted to all three, depending on the mission.

I think you are smart to at least consider the "least" boat that will do the job and make you happy (not in terms of quality, but rather in terms of avoiding complication).

RobLL":1cvj4c6c said:
I It is also curious that used 25 foot Bayliners are just $25K or so, and 25 foot C-Dorys are a lot more. Any reason.
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Without going into specific details, it's a bit like "A used 2008 Impala costs so much less than a 2002 Miata, why is that?" I don't mean that it's a silly question (and I pulled those car types out of a hat with no research), but just that bigger/newer isn't always "more," if you know what I mean. Or maybe sometimes less is more :D

RobLL":1cvj4c6c said:
I think I would prefer a 25, but a 22 would do the trick except for no separate head. Has anyone fabricated a low compact tent to temporarily position one in the cockpit?
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I have a 22, so you know where my preference lies. And from what I can tell, those with 25's love them, so to each their own. But I can say this (which is not always obvious to a newer boater). Boats go up in size and complication all out of proportion to their length. For example, a 25 "all up" on a trailer is about twice the weight (to tow) of a 22. No problem as long as it is not a surprise, and you are prepared to handle it. But you wouldn't necessarily expect that since it's "only" 3' longer. The 25 also has many more systems. This means more luxury, but also more complication. Tanks are more "built in," there are things such as water heaters, and holding tanks that you never have to worry about on a 22 (but then you have to heat water on a stove or by sun, and there is a porta potti to dump, so it is all choices).

Having worked on a lot of complicated boats in the past, I wanted simple. I also can't tow more than around 5,000# comfortably with my rig, and didn't want to have to change that (my all up towing weight a couple of months ago was 4000# on the trailer axles and 350# on the tongue; 25's are more like 7,500#-8,500#). And so it goes. Every boat is a compromise in some way(s), as there is no perfect one (for everything). So it's a matter of deciding which one suits you best (not always easy until you have tried one, so it's a bit backwards that way!)

I don't have as much experience on the 22 as many here, but I have done a couple of months on Powell (two separate trips). What we did was leave the Porta Potti in its spot (in the forecabin) during the day, so a person could have a private moment there; and then put it in the cockpit at night. That way no-one had to wake another person up, or worry about "sounds" while the other was sleeping. This worked well (but everyone is different). We'd usually leave it out in the cockpit until after morning routines were taken care of. This was in private locations (but then it is often private at anchor, since the cockpit sides are high). I could also see making a privacy tent in the cockpit (or just use the camper back) for porta potti or showering use. Sort of where there's a will, there's a way (presuming all aboard have the will).

Lots to think about. Fun times :thup
 
Too late to edit, but what I meant to add was that (with some exceptions) there are not so much "bad" boats, as mismatched expectations. The saddest cases I've seen are where people get into "too much" boat (or one that needs too much work) without understanding it. Then they are blindsided by how much time/money/etc. it takes (in fuel, in projects, in maintenance, in storage, etc.) and it becomes a source of stress instead of pleasure. Sad.

On the other hand, the most expensive, most complicated, most broken down, thirstiest, heaviest, smallest, cheapest, tippiest, slowest, fastest (choose any of the preceding) boat can be the perfect boat for someone who knows what they are getting into and wants whatever it is. Conversely, a big surprise mismatch can be a curse.

So you are smart to look at the various angles and do some research. Ultimately you can only guess at how a given boat will suit your needs (some guesses being more educated or luckier than others), and then see how reality matches up. Or sometimes even if you make the exact right choice, your desires or situation change (hence the string of boats many of us could put in our signatures :D). As long as you made a decent "guess," it's pretty much all fun along the way :thup Hard to beat being on the water for a person who loves it.
 
One point from reading other forums is Bayliner and other boat lines provide easy in-house financing just like car dealerships
 
RobLL":1c63431p said:
<stuff clipped> Has anyone fabricated a low compact tent to temporarily position one in the cockpit?
<more stuff clipped>
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I never liked the idea of peeing not too far from where my head would be in the V-berth. So, on my previous 22, I had the canvas camper back constructed with a privacy curtain that zipped onto the top. It zipped on to go from the starboard side of the bulkhead aft about 2' port about 2' and then back forward to the bulkhead. Velcro attached it to the bulkhead. A privacy screen could be snapped up on the bulkhead window and we'd put the porta potty in there. Here's an image of the privacy curtain. I worked great.
BoatWithExternalHeadCanvas.jpg.
 
Thank you all for your responses. Some things that were particularly helpful:

Comments regarding Bayliners, which confirmed and explained my suspicions. Another disadvantage which is pertinent to what I want, they are not a great slow speed boat. Also as someone noted (and I wondered about from pictures), they sit so high above the water, must attract a lot of wind!

"On the other hand, the most expensive, most complicated, most broken down, thirstiest, heaviest, smallest, cheapest, tippiest, slowest, fastest (choose any of the preceding) boat can be the perfect boat for someone who knows what they are getting into and wants whatever it is. Conversely, a big surprise mismatch can be a curse." Good comment

Roger's picture of the tent for a porta-potty - now that I know someone else has done it the 22 footer is looking more than adequate.

I am not wanting to add complications to my life. I am somewhat obsessive about maintenance, but also very careful about not taking on more than I want/can endure.

The broker who suggested I look at Bayliners did observe that it is easy to use a kerosene heaters and small propane burners in boats. I gather that there are appropriate safety considerations which would need to be followed. I remember outboards from my younger days (kind of headaches), and he was the first to tell me that modern outboards can be very reliable.

Something interesting as I looked more closely at the C-Dory site: The 25 has a better MPG at a slightly higher hull speed, but the 22 has a fairly flat MPG all the way up to 15-20 mph. Big plus if the 22 is big enough.
 
Something interesting as I looked more closely at the C-Dory site: The 25 has a better MPG at a slightly higher hull speed, but the 22 has a fairly flat MPG all the way up to 15-20 mph. Big plus if the 22 is big enough.
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Be careful about comparing MPG at low speeds. The methods of computation are often not accurate at these low speeds. Most owners who have owned both the 22 and the 25 would say that the 22 gets better "mileage" at low speeds. The difference in waterline length does not play a major factor as does the surface friction,surface area and weight. Base your decision on if the boat will do what you want it to do. We owned both the 22 and 25, then went back to the 22. Mostly this was because of ease of towing. The head was nice--but I don't think we ever took a shower in the head--where as we did in the Tom Cat 255. There are sun showers, swimming, and marinas/camp grounds which often offer far better showers than a very cramped head. (also depends on the size of the person, and I am 6'2" and about 180 lbs. Someone who was 5'6" and 120 lbs would have a different take.
 
I chose the c-dory because of its weight and draft mostly.

I wanted something I could easily tow anywhere with nearly anything, and not knowing how much cruising I was going to do I wanted fuel economy just in case. it was a smart move as we visit probably 6-10 different launches per season and cruise hundreds of miles.

other cabin cruisers have much sexier amenities, but right now I want economy and flexibility, that's what sold me.
 
Rob,

Don't forget to look at the C-Dory 23' Venture or a Cape Cruiser 23'. Both of these boats are pretty much identical. There is a loooong story about how the cape cruiser became a c-dory venture.

We purchased the Cape Cruiser because it is roomier, larger interior, larger cockpit and to us just felt more comfortable.

The. C-Dory factory site has all of the information you need to compare the size of the 22 vs the 23. You could also do a search for "Cape Cruiser" on the C-Brat site and find lots of information.

It just so happens that we have a very nice 2006 23' cape cruiser for sale. See the "Boats for Sale" section on the home page.

Whether you purchase our boat, a new boat or someone else's 23', you should check the boat out. We think it's a great boat.

Good luck in finding the "right boat."
 
I would try to arrange from a ride in both a 22' /23' and a 25' C-Dory.
For the most part the bigger the boat the more expensive and more systems to deal with like water heaters, holding tanks, showers and toilets.
The 22' is probably the most popular as it is well built, simple and the most economical to tow and run. The 23's handle a chop moderately better and have a larger feature set such as shore power electric water pumps water heaters. They are slightly larger and weigh about a 1000 pounds more than a 22'. Still they come with a porta Potty.
The 25' are more heavy but have toilets and a shower with a hot water heater. They require a heavier tow vehicle and have more complicated systems than it's two smaller sisters. There have been instances with fuel tanks leaking and needed to be repaired or replaced on some of the 25's. Because of where the tanks are located it is not an easy job or cheap. Fuel tanks in the 22' 23' are easily serviced as the sit at floor level under the motor wells. To each there own some people love the simplicity others have bathroom requirements. Take a ride in as many boats as are available. Going to a C-Brat gathering might be a good idea and a broad selection of boats. Good Luck.
D.D.
 
I would try to arrange from a ride in both a 22' /23' and a 25' C-Dory.
For the most part the bigger the boat the more expensive and more systems to deal with like water heaters, holding tanks, showers and toilets.
The 22' is probably the most popular as it is well built, simple and the most economical to tow and run. The 23's handle a chop moderately better and have a larger feature set such as shore power electric water pumps water heaters. They are slightly larger and weigh about a 1000 pounds more than a 22'. Still they come with a porta Potty.
The 25' are more heavy but have toilets and a shower with a hot water heater. They require a heavier tow vehicle and have more complicated systems than it's two smaller sisters. There have been instances with fuel tanks leaking and needed to be repaired or replaced on some of the 25's. Because of where the tanks are located it is not an easy job or cheap. Fuel tanks in the 22' 23' are easily serviced as the sit at floor level under the motor wells. To each there own some people love the simplicity others have bathroom requirements. Take a ride in as many boats as are available. Going to a C-Brat gathering might be a good idea and a broad selection of boats. Good Luck.
D.D.
 
bridma":hszhydq5 said:
Jazzmanic":hszhydq5 said:
<<stuff clipped>>

BoatWithExternalHeadCanvas.jpg.

Who's that mustachioed marauder? :D

Peter
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Is it Ned from 'The Simpsons' ?
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Hidely-ho there good neighbor! We had a good, good didly time on that 22 (and like Ned, I'm left handed). John R - sorry for extending the thread hijack. :-)
 
Dave (Will-C) makes some very nice points above to consider.

I'd like to elaborate on one of them.

Every time I read about someone with gas tank, fish box, bilge pump, toilet, macerator, or black water storage tank problems with a CD-25 or TomCat, I'm glad I have a simple CD-22 with all its systems simply mounted just on the inside of the single hull.

As boats get larger in the 20-26 foot range, a "double bottom" design becomes advantageous to work into the design, in which a floor is built up over the outer hull below to help shed water to the rear of the boat, and thence outward through scuppers that empty above the waterline.

This helps immensely to solve the bilge pump problem (when properly done), but introduces a who new set of problems in deciding where to place all of those items mentioned above.

Now, having choosen our double bottom design, most of those items have to be placed below the floor and, necessarily, in waterproofed/sealed spaces, and, worst of all, many of them are done so by boat builders without access hatches.

What is more, when problems occur, the hatches have to be opened or the floor cut up to get access to them to see why they're not functioning or to replace them outright. Now we get to do fun jobs like take out the toilet to see why the shower sump pump isn't working, or cut up your beautiful C-Dory to replace the black water tank! Things also get hidden down inside the sponsons of the catamarans, with the same result.

What a pain! / Gimmie a break! / Time to reconsider!

Designer's Delight = Repairer's Nightmare!

I think I'll stick with the single-hulled, serviceable, C-D models!

What's that phrase? KISS? Keep It Simple Stupid???

And just so you don't think I'm on the outside, criticizing the crowd, my Sea Ray 265 has these issues in spades, black spades, very black spades……….!

Just something to consider!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
All the preceding discussion have been helpful is sorting out my own thinking. 'Least Boat' for the job, simplification, and ease of towing are, I think, amongst my highest priorities

I don't have or want a big enough vehicle for towing. My brother has acreage and within 6 to 25 miles (mostly the former) of wherever I want to launch. He and other kin folks have pickups, and all of them are more knowledgeable about mechanical things than me. A small boat is towable by his and other relatives vehicles. And as a lower priced and simpler boat to maintain I will be comfortable sharing it with them.

I gather that most pickups are up to towing a 22 foot C-Dory those 6-25 miles, and that would not be the case for a 25 footer.

Another consideration in my mid-70s is that a 22 would be a lot easier should wife or I have to sell because of health considerations.
 
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