Kayak death south of Seattle
- Thread starter TOGO
- Start date
The Seattle victim was in a paddle boat outside Burien (between Vashon Island & the "mainland") They encountered "rough weather" and used cell phones to call for help. Our Marine Unit assisted in the SAR mission. I don't know many details.
The weather has been unusually "nice" as far as winter goes, but the winds kicked up the last few evenings along with showers. Temps are not very severe, but the water is still cold. Why someone would go out, on The Sound, in a paddle boat this time of year...? Not very smart.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-dies-woman-critical-after-paddleboat-capsizes/
The weather has been unusually "nice" as far as winter goes, but the winds kicked up the last few evenings along with showers. Temps are not very severe, but the water is still cold. Why someone would go out, on The Sound, in a paddle boat this time of year...? Not very smart.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-dies-woman-critical-after-paddleboat-capsizes/
Another totally preventable boating fatality. The weather predictions were for increasing winds, up from 10 to 15, increasing to 20 to 30 with higher gusts. No PFD's and not wearing appropriate attire, as mentioned, a Dry suit or survival suit. She got lucky, their cell phone worked. Well, at least it alerted someone they were in trouble. They were in the water 30 to 60 minutes before being retrieved.
All preventable by taking common sense precautions. (Like on that day, stay home and read a book by the fire, or go for a hike in an open field. Sorry, and I know, I am probably preaching to the choir, but I guess I am just frustrated that people are sooooooooo ridiculously ignorant of natures basic rules, and nature always wins if you don't know what you are doing.
I guess it takes more but a good start is to make "adult" decisions.
Sorry for the loss to the families.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
All preventable by taking common sense precautions. (Like on that day, stay home and read a book by the fire, or go for a hike in an open field. Sorry, and I know, I am probably preaching to the choir, but I guess I am just frustrated that people are sooooooooo ridiculously ignorant of natures basic rules, and nature always wins if you don't know what you are doing.
I guess it takes more but a good start is to make "adult" decisions.
Sorry for the loss to the families.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Truly amazing--I suspect that the hypothermia (core temp of 77*) helped to preserve her vital organs, despite respiratory and cardiac collapse. Add in immediate CRP when the CG boat arrived, and not assuming that she was dead, and the "heart lung" machine, which supported her until she recovered!
If you are first on the scene, don't assume that someone without pulse or respiration is dead; do the CPR.
Also confirms that everyone of us who is a boater should know and be certified in CRP!
If you are first on the scene, don't assume that someone without pulse or respiration is dead; do the CPR.
Also confirms that everyone of us who is a boater should know and be certified in CRP!
AstoriaDave
New member
That is phenomenal. Face down, in the cold water, no air exchange, for an unknown interval. I have read accounts similar to this when the person (often a toddler) was similarly deprived of air, and achieved full recovery. But I cannot recall any for adults.
Bob, do you have any idea how many full recoveries are documented?
Bob, do you have any idea how many full recoveries are documented?
I don't know how many recoveries are documented after hypothermia--because even if we had a full accounting in the US, there would be many others in countries literature other than English. I feel that the hypothermia played a major role here. With a core temp. of 77* this is profound hypothermia.
There are some good studies that hypothermia after cardiac arrest outside of the hospital setting increases the survival rate, and the brain function. There are many times that hypothermia is used during procedures to preserve tissue function. However "Targeted" hypothermia is never as low as this 77*!
Normally 4 minutes is the length of time without oxygen before there is brain damage. There are a number of cases where hypothermia prolonged that time--Again, I don't know a total number.
If the woman truly did make a full recovery, then it is extraordinary--4 hours in 50* water, unknown time without cardiac or respiratory function. We cannot equate the 4 hours, since she may have stopped breathing / and had cardiac collapse some time after entering the water. It does not sound as if she had aspirated water, and that may have been a salvation.
The moral, (beside don't go out in a paddle boat in bad weather in the middle of the night)--is if you come upon someone who is unresponsive, do not assume that they are dead, even though you cannot find a pulse or respirations. Do CPR anyway--and it might be a positive outcome. There is no way to predict at the scene of an accident that the patient may not recover.
There are some good studies that hypothermia after cardiac arrest outside of the hospital setting increases the survival rate, and the brain function. There are many times that hypothermia is used during procedures to preserve tissue function. However "Targeted" hypothermia is never as low as this 77*!
Normally 4 minutes is the length of time without oxygen before there is brain damage. There are a number of cases where hypothermia prolonged that time--Again, I don't know a total number.
If the woman truly did make a full recovery, then it is extraordinary--4 hours in 50* water, unknown time without cardiac or respiratory function. We cannot equate the 4 hours, since she may have stopped breathing / and had cardiac collapse some time after entering the water. It does not sound as if she had aspirated water, and that may have been a salvation.
The moral, (beside don't go out in a paddle boat in bad weather in the middle of the night)--is if you come upon someone who is unresponsive, do not assume that they are dead, even though you cannot find a pulse or respirations. Do CPR anyway--and it might be a positive outcome. There is no way to predict at the scene of an accident that the patient may not recover.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... nd-rescue/
There was some pretty cutting edge medical technology (and engineering) involved with all of this. Pretty amazing.
There was some pretty cutting edge medical technology (and engineering) involved with all of this. Pretty amazing.
Part of our training is in the use of AEDs; defibrillators. I had some concerns about shocking a pregnant woman (an example). The instructor simplified it for me: if the unit says shock, shock. She's already "dead" so you're not gonna hurt her.
In other words, you and the victim have nothing to lose and only his/her life to save...this includes CPR. In the field we keep doing it until the medics arrive and take over. I've seen them whisk folks to the ER just as Dr Bob stated and somehow they survive.
My opinion is that she would not have survived. But there are so many variables, that this is almost like looking into a crystal ball...Entering in is the hypothermia, and the assumption that she had not taken significant water into her lungs. If she had, the chances of survival would have been far less, if any.RobLL":1dewxgiy said:
Generally if a person is under water over 10 minutes the chance of recovery is far less--minimal But there is a difference in salt water vs fresh water "drowning" physiologically. There is a case where a boy was trapped under fresh water for 42 minutes, and survived to totally recover.
The record for "breath holding is over 24 minutes (under water in starting in cold water, which is warmed--after breathing pure oxygen). Without oxygen berating it is 11 min 35 seconds. The depth record free diving (without breathing pure oxygen is over 253 meters! (of course this is riding a sled to the bottom, and going into a recompression chamber immediately after the dive.) The 253 meter dive was not accredited, but it was documented. The bad news is that the diver did have bends and suffered at least temporary damage....
Don't try this at home.
starcrafttom
Active member
Stupid to be out in the boat in this weather. Lots of luck involved here. Lucky she was found, lucky she was found in a city like Seattle with the equipment and trained Pros to take care of her. Other places time and distance would have played a bigger part as well as facilities available . Very lucky.
have a proper boat, have a life vest, CHECK THE WEATHER REPORT.
have a proper boat, have a life vest, CHECK THE WEATHER REPORT.
Side Note: Back in the late 70's when I was just a youngster in (back then) the "Inhalation Therapy Dept" in Portland Oregon there were several of us that were or had been involved in SAR and being in close proximity to Mt Hood where it was not uncommon for us to get hypothermic patients off the mountain. Being young, full of "can-do spirit" and interested in hypothermic resuscitation decided we were going to do something about it. There was a local Emergency Medicine/Cardiologist doc with some experience in Everest team medical management. We collaborated with him and developed a device called "Hot Oxygen Therapy" which consisted of a humidified, heated, closed-circle breathing circuit with a CO2 absorber and ability to add O2 into the circuit. We were able to monitor the circuit temperature and CO2 percentages and monitor the patients oxygen saturation level. The device was used via soft cushion mask held on via an anesthesia headset. (Today a Full Face CPAP mask would be perfect.) It was affectionately called the O2 Hotbox, was 10" square (footprint) and 14" tall.
With the help and contacts of Dr Bangs, we started using them, in transporting patients from the mountain to our facility in both air and ground transport. And it was working. The 304 Air Evac started carrying one on each of their aircraft (Huey's) and eventually we had 10 in local service, and had good results in each case with core temp resuscitations down into the low 80's. My recollection was that we did resuscitate a late 30"s female that was down to 75 core temp. I don't remember the lowest temp, or a lot of the other details. (Moving someone with that low a core temp has to be done very carefully because of the increased likelihood Ventricular Fibrillation due to clod shock syndrome). The initial warming could be done with the patient in the initially found position, before major moving.
The physiology was that inhaling warmed air (102 - 104 degrees) heated the core by having the warm air into the lungs and heating the blood thus warming the core. The warmed blood then perfused the body brain and periphery. It was faster than doing a peritoneal lavage with heated fluid, and less invasive so could be done in the field and during transport.
The US Coast Guard would not use them on their rescue craft due to the fact they could not be submerged or inverted 180 degrees, but they did have some on their helicopters for a while. We made about 200 IIRC and had them placed in Iceland, Norway, Montana, Idaho, and UK. Back then, it was easier to do that sort of thing. Now, there would be way too many lawyers in the way. I moved from Portland so lost track of what happened to the "HotBox" project before it ended.
So goes another "Back Then, Shoulda Woulda story.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
With the help and contacts of Dr Bangs, we started using them, in transporting patients from the mountain to our facility in both air and ground transport. And it was working. The 304 Air Evac started carrying one on each of their aircraft (Huey's) and eventually we had 10 in local service, and had good results in each case with core temp resuscitations down into the low 80's. My recollection was that we did resuscitate a late 30"s female that was down to 75 core temp. I don't remember the lowest temp, or a lot of the other details. (Moving someone with that low a core temp has to be done very carefully because of the increased likelihood Ventricular Fibrillation due to clod shock syndrome). The initial warming could be done with the patient in the initially found position, before major moving.
The physiology was that inhaling warmed air (102 - 104 degrees) heated the core by having the warm air into the lungs and heating the blood thus warming the core. The warmed blood then perfused the body brain and periphery. It was faster than doing a peritoneal lavage with heated fluid, and less invasive so could be done in the field and during transport.
The US Coast Guard would not use them on their rescue craft due to the fact they could not be submerged or inverted 180 degrees, but they did have some on their helicopters for a while. We made about 200 IIRC and had them placed in Iceland, Norway, Montana, Idaho, and UK. Back then, it was easier to do that sort of thing. Now, there would be way too many lawyers in the way. I moved from Portland so lost track of what happened to the "HotBox" project before it ended.
So goes another "Back Then, Shoulda Woulda story.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
AstoriaDave
New member
Harvey,
I remember these. USCG Astoria used them on their helos for a few years. They worked well, and were very highly regarded by the helo rescue folks. Lots of anecdotal support.
Cameron Bangs, MD, was likewise an icon in the SAR groups, with high visibility getting out the word on hypothermia.
Thanks for the contributions you guys made.
I remember these. USCG Astoria used them on their helos for a few years. They worked well, and were very highly regarded by the helo rescue folks. Lots of anecdotal support.
Cameron Bangs, MD, was likewise an icon in the SAR groups, with high visibility getting out the word on hypothermia.
Thanks for the contributions you guys made.
starcrafttom
Active member
I just read the story again and it gives a time of 3 AM??? why would anyone be out at that time of night??
I also have to wander if the paddle boat is really a paddle boat OR a peddle powered kayak? which would be a every so slightly better choice.
I also have to wander if the paddle boat is really a paddle boat OR a peddle powered kayak? which would be a every so slightly better choice.