Heater suggestions needed, East Coast/PNW boat

bshillam

Member
Well we finally picked out another CD. We just couldn't stay off the water, add the fact that our new to us house is going to have a boat lift and we knew a CD was in our near future. That started a search months ago, which leads me to my post. The boat has no source of heat and we are year round boaters. So, I've done as much research as I can online and have concluded the Sign 100 or Dickson Newport is probably the best fit. Do you have diesel or propane? Being we're starting from scratch we Dan go either way. I think it's a push cost wise as both will require about the same initial investment. Although the forced air units look great, cost eleminates them - that is unless someone has a real good source (inexpensive) for one.
Suggestions, feedback on what you have and how has it worked? Reliable?
Looking forward to seeing you all on the water again this summer!
 
Diesel is sure a lot safer than Propane. If the boat has a stove already, I'd go with the Webasto forced air. Congrats on the new boat and house with lift. Sweet set-up :thup
 
We use an Espar D-2 diesel forced air. Works well, cheaper than a Wallas pic's in our album about 2k after all said and done. Some have done the install cheaper, depends where you buy the additional items needed as most buy a truck kit and then shop for the items like the thru hull for the exhaust fuel tank etc. Some of these guys are some pretty serious shoppers. :) Propane requires a propane locker I heard that stuff can explode and it causes a lot of moisture. Diesel is usully easy to find while cruising.

D.D.
 
Propane is clean and simple.. The burner requires almost no maintenance compared to a diesel burner which requires a pump and electrical controls, cleaning the orifice, etc..
You do need an external mount for the propane tank... But the diesel heater needs a tank also...
Many of those who have the Wallas brand diesel heater have snatched themselves bald attempting to keep the burner functioning...
Espar, and others, seem to have a good reputation with the truckers...

For my boat, given that I have diesel fuel on board a diesel heater would be the easiest solution...
If I were starting from scratch I would go with propane...

I would NOT choose anything with an open burner that discharges the exhaust (CO) into the cabin...
Only damn fools play with fire (and CO)
 
When I was having trouble with the Wallis, I looked into the options for heat. Obviously there were 2 choices for fuel: propane and diesel. A mandatory feature was forced air heat. That V-berth gets cold and DAMP. Power draw was considered, for when we're anchored. And last (but very important,) was exhaust gas removal.

So to what conclusion did I come? Well, propane meant I had to install a propane tank and associated plumbing, which was inconvenient (and expensive,) though I found a small 2 1/2 gas tank I could fit in. The Wallas does not distribute heat throughout the boat, though it vents the gases overboard and doesn't draw much power. Also the Wallas need expert maintenance, beyond my pay grade. The Wallas had a diesel tank so I wouldn't need to buy another.

Looking at this post, Webasto Install, the installation didn't seem difficult, and it provided forced air throughout the boat. This post gave an idea as to price: Deal on Webasto Heater, or here:Webasto Heaters. All the prices mentioned are ~$1100, but everybody likes them.

I didn't find a cheaper heater that had an overboard exhaust and forced air. You can get a camping heater for ~$100, but then you have to listen to thataway, Dr Bob, about carbon monoxide poisoning.

Boris
 
I installed a Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater in my CD-22 for no more than $300 additional to the propane system already there for the Wedgewood 3-burner propane cook stove also seen in the photo below.

See installation details along with the photos that follow the one below.

Force_10_Cozy_Cabin_Heater_in_Sea_Wolf.jpg
Click on photo for subsequent ones and details of installation.

(The full description is so far back it was posted on the MSN site that preceded this one!) (circa 2003)

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe, That is a really nice installation. I just went through the whole thing, clear to the propane tank in the splash well. Just the thought of the propane scares the daylights out of me, but I know it works well for some. You did a great job of making it the most functional and beautiful too of all the propane systems I have seen.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Just for some perspective, those of us who have thousand gallon propane tanks for heating multiple buildings, hot water heaters, cooking stoves, and emergency generators feel that dire predictions about propane gas are vastly overblown... The majority of rural homes and farms use propane...
Even the tiniest propane leak is instantly smelled... Common sense goes a long ways
 
I am the proud user of a 300 gal propane tank. It's situated 300' from the house as required by building code. Also, propane is heavier than air, so that if there's a leak, it sinks to the ground and runs downhill. And, just as an aside, propane now cost $3.00/gal.

So using propane on an enclosed box floating on water needs some planning, since the supply tank is located a few feet from the living quarters, and instead of running downhill and away, a leak would gather in the hull. Our sailboat come with a propane stove and the installation had 1) a dedicated propane locker vented overboard through the bottom, 2) an electrical shut off valve and regulator, 3) flexible supply line. Catalina has built 1000's of boats like this with no problems.

So now translate this to a C-Dory, where the propane tank has to be installed so that it vents overboard, the shut-off valve has to be installed next to the tank and plumbing has to be run to the stove or heater. It's not trivial, or free. Joe did a great job of installing his heater, but I'd love to see pictures of his propane tank installation. Tank installation and plumbing was a major factor when I was looking at alternatives to the Wallis.

Once you install a propane supply, it's obvious that propane is the way to go, both for the stove and heater. I'd add the requirement of forced air into the V-berth, though. It gets awfully cold up there.

Boris
 
In the Sensei we mounted the Dickinson newport propane heater. it puts out some nice heat and it has a small fan that helps circulate the heat.


sensei_interior_018.sized.jpg
 
Roger/Sensi and Jim/SeaWolf;

I'd love (OK, make that appreciate,) to see pictures of your propane tank and supply installation.

Joe, I don't know who Billy is but I hope he had a vent from that locker directly overboard, because any leak would collect in the cockpit. Comment where I got that wrong?

Boris
 
I have used propane for stoves on my cruising sail boats. But I would not choose it for a C Dory. Takes too much propane to heat in cold weather, has to have the vented overboard tank, I won't have installed propane without a sniffer and remote solenoid valve to turn the propane off every time I use it--not to leave it on at night.

There is a lot of difference between propane in a house/farm or a boat. I have seen a number of boats go "boom"--first when I was about 10 years old. My close friend was badly burned in a propane explosion involving a boat stove--over a million dollars in burn unit and other hospital bills. No way for me. We are carrying cartridges for a portable propane stove on "thisaway" and they stay outside in the well which vents over board.
 
journey on":2gco5ixn said:
Roger/Sensi and Jim/SeaWolf;

I'd love (OK, make that appreciate,) to see pictures of your propane tank and supply installation.

Joe, I don't know who Billy is but I hope he had a vent from that locker directly overboard, because any leak would collect in the cockpit. Comment where I got that wrong?

Boris

Boris-

Here is the tank installation in my boat back in 2003 before I changed engines. I only use the system when I'm awake, cooking or heating the cabin, and with the propane and CO alarms turned on.

Billy's installation and propane locker can be found Here and in the subsequent photos.

I can't comment on how Billy's locker was vented from my memory, but you can see several holes drilled in the interior bottom of the wooden locker in one of the photos.

The Cabin Interior Photos Album is full of various heater installation photos, and fun to peruse.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I am not an opponent of propane. I converted a home to propane heat with a 1000 gal tank, 50 feet from the house as the code was there and then. (300 feet? That is a l o n g way from the house.) And like mentioned, propane in a boat is different, more contained or concentrated, in a smaller environment and closer to many possible ignition points. I have also seen where propane has gone wrong. (Launching a hot water heater out through a roof, blowing a boat next to my friends boat to smithereens, and burning a relatives house to the ground.) Propane may work for you, or some others on their boat, It does not work for me except in the cartridges for the BBQ, and it gets used rarely.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon
 
Edit: Well that got long once I saw it posted. Please feel free to skip it if you don't want to bother wading through it. It does not contain any world-saving information ;)

*******

I have used propane on a couple of boats and I'm comfortable with it as long as the installation is done properly. If not handled properly, it can be very dangerous. But then so can gasoline. Ironically (as compared to this thread), I avoided carrying gasoline -- just because it was one more volatile fuel to carry, and I didn't have a good option on the boat for properly stowing it.

I only used propane for cooking, as I couldn't carry enough for regular heating (in places where it was not possible to get tanks refilled on a regular basis, and the boat had more interior volume - thus used more fuel to heat - than a C-Dory does).

Even though I liked it, I wouldn't encourage people who aren't comfortable with propane to have it aboard because... why cause yourself worry/angst when there are alternatives available? But for those who are open to it, I think it can be "safe" aboard (I put that in quotation marks because I don't think any volatile fuel can be completely safe aboard, but you can minimize your chances for problems by doing things properly. (C-Dory gas tanks would be an example of that. They are installed properly, vented, grounded, supported, secured, etc.).

I don't see how a propane locker in the cockpit could be a "proper" installation. First, since propane is heaver than air, there is no way for any leaks to drain overboard (the cockpit is not self-draining as I understand it). Second, there is a good chance that any leaks could "drain" into the cabin because the sill is much, much lower than the sides of the cockpit. And third, it does not conform to ABYC guidelines (which are generally practical ones that make sense, not just rules for rules' sake).

Smaller sailboats have the same challenge: Where to put the propane tank? There is an added challenge because, due to heeling, it pretty much needs to be on centerline (otherwise the vent will submerge on one tack, which makes it not a vent). Sometimes it's just not practical to make a locker, and so the boat owner foregos propane.

I'm not completely familiar with the C-Dory 22, but from what I can see there would be a few possible options (but there is no doubt that to add a propane system you would be giving up some space and introducing additional components, which may not be desirable).

One would be either of the lazarettes, making sure they were sealed and had an overboard drain above the waterline. Two might be the motorwell (although that doesn't seem like a great place for a larger tank - I guess it may depend on whether or not you use a swim step and need to climb through it).

Three would be someplace above decks (some sailboats have a niche or open-bottomed box on deck or cabintop). That might be a bit clunky on a CD, although perhaps there is some possibility with one of the slender, tall 6" aluminum tanks - say strapped to a stern pulpit if anyone had one (these tanks should be vertical in use, otherwise one could have one lying down on the cabintop).

So, it seems to me that one would need to want to have propane. I think if someone were in doubt about it, they would resent the space being taken up by the system, and/or be nervous about it all the time.

I will say that I loved propane for full-time cooking (which is all it was used for). Instant on, good heat, easy to lower to a bare simmer, controllable oven for baking, no fumes, no cleaning of burners (had a diesel heater, so I am familiar with that), and an 11# tank would last for months (had two aboard). I think I would also love propane for heating if I were in a position where it made sense to heat with it (either not using the heater full time, or where it was convenient to re-fill the tank - as a furnace will be "thirstier" than a cooker. A heater with a window to see the flame is super cozy aboard (had a window in the diesel heater), and heaters like the P9000 have such a window.

(One note on the introduction of moisture to the cabin: The same heating fuel source that will introduce moisture in a non-vented situation (i.e. no "chimney") will not do the same if it is vented (i.e. has a "chimney"). A kerosene or diesel heater that was un-vented would also introduce moisture to the cabin. So a lot depends on the design of the appliance and its installation.)

All that said, I'm not sure I would choose propane for a C-Dory, simply for space reasons. I guess it would depend on my mission/circumstance for the boat. I would have to consider that specifically before choosing.

One more option is CNG. It is like propane but it is not heavier than air, so it does not "sink" and become concentrated on boats/bilges. The main disadvantage of it is that there are relatively few places to get a CNG fill, as opposed to the ubiquitous propane fill stations. However, if you live/boat in an area(s) that do have CNG available, it might be a good option.
 
the only proper place for apropane tank in a 22 is a lazarette totally sealed from the cockpit and draining overboard.

any system which drains into the cockpit is very dangerous!

compressed nat gas does not have a lot of BTU in in a tank. propane is a liquid, cng is not!
 
thataway":jxc1mq4l said:
compressed nat gas does not have a lot of BTU in in a tank.

Interesting - I never knew that, but I looked it up and I see what you mean. Good point. (I had never looked into it before since I knew I would not be able to reliably find CNG filling stations.)
 
At one time almost all of the marinas in S. Calif. had CNG exchange stations (not filling). I purchased a boat which had a tank. I got less than half the usage out of full time live aboard stove use.
 
After much research I have decided either the Webasto 2000 or Dickson Newport in diesel. Does anyone have the Dickson in diesel on their boat? How has it performed? By the sounds of it the Webasto might be a better bet with the savings of counter top as my wife and I do cook and stay out quite a bit.
My only concern is I don't want another system that requires attention like the wall as did. Is the Dickson as bullet proof as one would think?
We need a reliable source of heat as we have been known to stay out even with ice on the windshield.... :disgust
 
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