Here's an interesting short video on Glen Canyon from National Geographic. It's a interesting watch as it talks a little about the archeological salvage operation that was undertaken prior to flooding the canyon and those who ran the river prior to it being dammed (and damned). Warning - it contains a little bit of artistic nudity so it might not be appropriate for all.
Glen Canyon (now Lake Powell)
- Thread starter rogerbum
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potter water
New member
The great thing about the dam is that now, at age 71, I can also explore and do all of the things the rough old lady in the film did when she was young. However, I can't go around naked because I burn badly, but that doesn't stop a lot of people. I love the last scene. Someone enjoying the lake on a boat, just the way I do. Whether or not Glen Canyon Dam was good or bad, there are millions more people now who have and do enjoy slots and hanging gardens and picto graphs etc. than would have ever been able to enjoy such things if the lake had never been created. People with disability can see Rainbow and sites that they would never have seen otherwise. Still, there are hundreds of miles of other canyons that haven't been damed along the Colorado. Maybe they aren't as spectacular for nude walking, but the Glen Canyon, pre-lake crowd is dying out and millions of others are experiencing the same awestruck wonder as they cruise the lake from end to end that the earlier folks experienced as they walked the pre-lake canyon. Elite and only elite access is what many of these films are about. But, that's just my opinion and fortunately, in this nation, for a while at least, a person's opinions can be expressed.
AstoriaDave
New member
Interesting video. Fascinating footage of the canyons and the archeological sites. I see both sides of this, the value of Lake Mead, and the value of the archeological sites. My bottom line is we will change our surroundings. The question is how, and how much.
That's an interesting take on things. I don't really see it as elite vs non-elite access but rather as leaving the canyon in it's natural state vs creating a lake and burying it under water. One could make the same argument about the grand canyon, Bryce canyon or any one of a number of other canyons - they'd all be more accessible to boaters if filled partway with water. It's also hard for me to determine who's more elite - the young hiker who can afford a pair of boots and a tent or the middle age guys like me who can afford a boat. We probably have different definitions of "elite".potter water":3q8ywbd8 said:
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Thanks for posting this interesting bit of history.
Katie Lee is quite the woman. What a hoot!
Katie Lee is quite the woman. What a hoot!
colbysmith
Active member
Oops! Duplicate post. The post above is about opening the Gates at Glen Canyon dam and draining Lake Powell.
Hard to address this type of article. New York Times, environmental issue, water rights issues, power generation issues, recreational issues, and political issues. I believe that there are a number of questionable statements in the article.
Lake Mead yesterday was at its historic low since filled--that is going to be a problem. Prediction is that it will fall slightly more, and then more water will be released from Powell.
I suspect that are a lot of effects to the Grand Canyon, and down stream water rights, plus recreational use--which are also not addressed, but will play out in any attempt to let all of the water drain out--pass thru the Glen Canyon Dam.
I was unable to post the graph of levels:
http://graphs.water-data.com/lakepowell ... graphing=1
Basically it shows that this year is slightly better than last year.. It is far better than 2014 water year. 2005 was far worse. The snow pack/rainfall is cyclic, and we have been at a lot level with drought thru out the SW. Add in the increased water demand down stream.
Lake Mead yesterday was at its historic low since filled--that is going to be a problem. Prediction is that it will fall slightly more, and then more water will be released from Powell.
I suspect that are a lot of effects to the Grand Canyon, and down stream water rights, plus recreational use--which are also not addressed, but will play out in any attempt to let all of the water drain out--pass thru the Glen Canyon Dam.
I was unable to post the graph of levels:
http://graphs.water-data.com/lakepowell ... graphing=1
Basically it shows that this year is slightly better than last year.. It is far better than 2014 water year. 2005 was far worse. The snow pack/rainfall is cyclic, and we have been at a lot level with drought thru out the SW. Add in the increased water demand down stream.
RobMcClain
Member
Very good article, thanks for posting it Colby. It will be fascinating to see what, if anything, is actually done. This past Wednesday Lake Mead hit an historic low, the lowest level it has been since it was being filled. It is expected to continue dropping thru June. It will then stabilize somewhat and fill slightly through the rest of the year - supposedly.
Rob
Rob
I do occasional predictions when I post (call them Wobin's wacky wedictions).
Dams will be reconfigured in the future. They will be somewhat closer to run of the river. Almost the same amount of power will be produced, silt problems will be solved by moving it down stream ala nature. They will not block salmon runs, they will flush young salmon down stream, again ala nature. Water storage will be solved by having more smaller dams. A river may have a few major water storage dams, but not all of them will store water at the same time.
The PacificNW is taking a lead in this, but New England has also done a lot.
Dams will be reconfigured in the future. They will be somewhat closer to run of the river. Almost the same amount of power will be produced, silt problems will be solved by moving it down stream ala nature. They will not block salmon runs, they will flush young salmon down stream, again ala nature. Water storage will be solved by having more smaller dams. A river may have a few major water storage dams, but not all of them will store water at the same time.
The PacificNW is taking a lead in this, but New England has also done a lot.
potter water
New member
California has missed the boat over the decades by NOT building many small dams to collect lost water. Thank the environmentalists for that. Ditto, Utah and Idaho.
The problem with Lake Meade is too many land hustlers overbuilding with support from the Nevada political machine. There was little or no thought to water, rather it was ignored, so the developers could continue to line their and the politicians pockets.
My son is currently in the Netherlands with a group of students working water issues as part of his Professorial responsibilities at BYU. They ware going to have combinations of U.S. and Dutch students take sides and debate Lake Powell and other reservoirs. I'll pass anything along that may be of interest to those of us who love the Lake.
There is virtually nothing that is printed in the New York Times that is not politically motivated and slanted. Yes, the rare accurate article will come through, but I don't see this in that category. The NYC is basically against anyone having fun as far as I can tell.
I don't think we will see any lake draining in my lifetime. If there is, it is more likely to be Lake Meade. But all of this is pure speculation as it will be the politicians who will be making these decisions based upon politics, not science or what is best for the people.
The problem with Lake Meade is too many land hustlers overbuilding with support from the Nevada political machine. There was little or no thought to water, rather it was ignored, so the developers could continue to line their and the politicians pockets.
My son is currently in the Netherlands with a group of students working water issues as part of his Professorial responsibilities at BYU. They ware going to have combinations of U.S. and Dutch students take sides and debate Lake Powell and other reservoirs. I'll pass anything along that may be of interest to those of us who love the Lake.
There is virtually nothing that is printed in the New York Times that is not politically motivated and slanted. Yes, the rare accurate article will come through, but I don't see this in that category. The NYC is basically against anyone having fun as far as I can tell.
I don't think we will see any lake draining in my lifetime. If there is, it is more likely to be Lake Meade. But all of this is pure speculation as it will be the politicians who will be making these decisions based upon politics, not science or what is best for the people.
AstoriaDave
New member
Hard to imagine there is any "one size fits all" solution to water issues, especially as it might apply to flowing waters. What makes sense in water-poor regions would be different than the best use of water in areas with pkentiful rainfall. Add in the need to maintain flows for anadromous fish, and use gets more complicated.
I live on the Columbia River, which is managed for use in irrigation, power generation, sustaining salmon and steelhead fisheries (both commercial and recreational, including guided charters), drinking water, and plain old recreation.
What makes sense on the Columbia would not apply to the heavily impounded Colorado. To wit, I doubt more than 5 per cent of water users in Southern California (born and raised there) have any appreciation of the commercial, economic, and cultural benefits of healthy salmin and steelhead runs. In visits to the town of my birth, I continually get the question, "Why do you let all that water just run into the ocean? Why don't you USE it?" When I answer that we make money from those runs, something like a brain fart happens, and the discussion goes downhill from there.
I doubt there is any chance of satisfying the water-hungry hordes in Southern California short of a massive diversion of the Columbia in their direction. To use a modification of the phrase from the NRA: "over my cold, dead body."
I live on the Columbia River, which is managed for use in irrigation, power generation, sustaining salmon and steelhead fisheries (both commercial and recreational, including guided charters), drinking water, and plain old recreation.
What makes sense on the Columbia would not apply to the heavily impounded Colorado. To wit, I doubt more than 5 per cent of water users in Southern California (born and raised there) have any appreciation of the commercial, economic, and cultural benefits of healthy salmin and steelhead runs. In visits to the town of my birth, I continually get the question, "Why do you let all that water just run into the ocean? Why don't you USE it?" When I answer that we make money from those runs, something like a brain fart happens, and the discussion goes downhill from there.
I doubt there is any chance of satisfying the water-hungry hordes in Southern California short of a massive diversion of the Columbia in their direction. To use a modification of the phrase from the NRA: "over my cold, dead body."
From The Federal Register
Notice of Availability and Notice of Public Meetings for the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the Long-Term Experimental and Management Plan for the Operation of Glen Canyon Dam, Page, Arizona
A Notice by the Reclamation Bureau and the National Park Service on 01/08/2016
https://www.federalregister.gov/article ... -statement
SUMMARY
The Department of the Interior, through the Bureau of Reclamation and National Park Service (NPS), has made available for public review and comment the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Long-Term Experimental and Management Plan for the Operation of Glen Canyon Dam (LTEMP). The LTEMP would determine specific options for dam operations (including hourly, daily, and monthly release patterns), non-flow actions, and appropriate experimental and management actions that will meet the requirements of the Grand Canyon Protection Act, maintain or improve hydropower production, and minimize impacts on resources, including those of importance to American Indian Tribes.
Notice of Availability and Notice of Public Meetings for the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the Long-Term Experimental and Management Plan for the Operation of Glen Canyon Dam, Page, Arizona
A Notice by the Reclamation Bureau and the National Park Service on 01/08/2016
https://www.federalregister.gov/article ... -statement
SUMMARY
The Department of the Interior, through the Bureau of Reclamation and National Park Service (NPS), has made available for public review and comment the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Long-Term Experimental and Management Plan for the Operation of Glen Canyon Dam (LTEMP). The LTEMP would determine specific options for dam operations (including hourly, daily, and monthly release patterns), non-flow actions, and appropriate experimental and management actions that will meet the requirements of the Grand Canyon Protection Act, maintain or improve hydropower production, and minimize impacts on resources, including those of importance to American Indian Tribes.
Two high dams on the Elwa have been removed along with their lakes. The dam on the White Salmon River has been removed. The Skokomish river has been restored (power station removed, no more diverted water), although the dam itself remains to 'preserve' the deepened Lake Cushman and its shoreline development. There is increasing likelihood that three major dams on the Snake River will be greatly modified or removed. Preserving decimated salmon runs is the major reason.
All dams, like all lakes, are fated eventually to silt up. The stories of the Elwa recovery is fascinating. Google 'Elwa'.
All dams, like all lakes, are fated eventually to silt up. The stories of the Elwa recovery is fascinating. Google 'Elwa'.
An old Western Expression (sometimes falsely attributed to Mark Twain) is:
There has been more than a fair share of fighting over the Colorado River Water, (including close to a war between California and Arizona). Mexico and Texas have been involved.
Even if Powell were drained, the river bed and those places which have been under water for almost 50 years have been damaged--and will never be the same.
We cannot forget that the flow of the Colorado River is cyclic--and there have been floods, as well as droughts. That a once lush Colorado River Delta in Mexico has disappeared, along with affects in the Gulf of Mexico.
We also have to realize that before the Glen Canyon Dam, this was considered desolate desert area (despite it cultural and environmental diversity). Page Arizona did not exist until the Glen Canyon Dam was built. Now there are over 3 million visitors a year. Before the Glen Canyon Dam, the only way across the Colorado in this area, was the Navajo Bridge built in 1928/29--and the volume of traffic was low. Also the more regulated flow of the Colorado River both facilitate and made safer rafting thru the Grand Canyon.
There has been more than a fair share of fighting over the Colorado River Water, (including close to a war between California and Arizona). Mexico and Texas have been involved.
Even if Powell were drained, the river bed and those places which have been under water for almost 50 years have been damaged--and will never be the same.
We cannot forget that the flow of the Colorado River is cyclic--and there have been floods, as well as droughts. That a once lush Colorado River Delta in Mexico has disappeared, along with affects in the Gulf of Mexico.
We also have to realize that before the Glen Canyon Dam, this was considered desolate desert area (despite it cultural and environmental diversity). Page Arizona did not exist until the Glen Canyon Dam was built. Now there are over 3 million visitors a year. Before the Glen Canyon Dam, the only way across the Colorado in this area, was the Navajo Bridge built in 1928/29--and the volume of traffic was low. Also the more regulated flow of the Colorado River both facilitate and made safer rafting thru the Grand Canyon.
jkidd
Active member
One of the hurdles the the environmentalists need to get passed is there is no drain. When the dam was finished they filled the first half of the diversion tunnel with reinforced concrete and the last half was used for the spillways. So just opening up the gate doesn't work. If they manage to get it drained Page will become a ghost town and Arizona and California will be left to figure out where they get water for the infrastructure that has been built. They need both dams to cover for floods and droughts. If the water managers had any brains instead releasing the required amounts every year in the drought years they should reduce it by 10 to 15 percent and make people manage the water. The lake would begin to fill again. Seeing as there was an agreement to build Glen Canyon and they wouldn't build the other 2 dams and the other side can't see to live up to there word maybe we need to start discussing building the other 2 dams and give them something to work on.
They have been talking about letting more water out of Lake Powell to replenish Lake Mead. Unfortunately that does not solve the underlying problem.
Basically, starting in the late 50's through the late 70's, the available water was more than the historical average. In early '80s Lake Mead was close to over topping Hoover dam (I remember being there in the 80's and seeing the water only a few feet from the top when standing on the top of the dam). The population in the region grew based on the expected sustainability of the area (and the increase in the population in general). Now that the water supply has returned to less than historical levels the region simply cannot support the number of people that live there. Climate change will only make things worse.
If you consider that LA, Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Phoenix, and all the other towns in the southwest are built in a **c**** desert that encompasses tens of thousands of square miles, it should be no surprise that there are issues with the water supply. Some of these cities are near the top of the list most significant cities in the country.
Even though Las Vegas was initially settled by Mormon settlers in the 1800's who found water there, by the time Las Vegas was starting to become a recognizable town, the wells were already drying up.
There is an area maybe 40 miles from Las Vegas. There is a spring there that has a pool about 15' deep. Pure mountain spring water fills this pool. The water comes from snow melt from the mountains in the desert. It is very picturesque. Not many years ago some developers found this and said "We're going to put 3500 homes here. This spring will ensure that everyone has plenty of water." Some citizens got together and said "we've got to stop this, there is no way that that environment can support that kind of development." Luckily for everyone (particularly the people that would have ended up living there) they succeeded, the area is now a park run by the NPS.
Unfortunately, efforts to maintain the existing water supply levels to these areas are going to cost billions of dollars, cause lots of civil turmoil, and in the end are unlikely change the situation in any meaningful way. Yes, some people will get more of a dwindling supply, but others will end up with less.
Las Vegas has put a drain in the bottom of Lake Mead. They now can get every last drop out of the reservoir. Great, but what's going to happen after they do that and the lake is empty? Pray for rain?
IMO, this planet has likely exceeded it's load limit as far as humans are concerned. Only if we humans change our life style significantly will our planet be able to continue to support us. This change is likely to be most unpleasant. The longer we put it off the worse it will be.
Enough of my soapbox for now.
Basically, starting in the late 50's through the late 70's, the available water was more than the historical average. In early '80s Lake Mead was close to over topping Hoover dam (I remember being there in the 80's and seeing the water only a few feet from the top when standing on the top of the dam). The population in the region grew based on the expected sustainability of the area (and the increase in the population in general). Now that the water supply has returned to less than historical levels the region simply cannot support the number of people that live there. Climate change will only make things worse.
If you consider that LA, Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Phoenix, and all the other towns in the southwest are built in a **c**** desert that encompasses tens of thousands of square miles, it should be no surprise that there are issues with the water supply. Some of these cities are near the top of the list most significant cities in the country.
Even though Las Vegas was initially settled by Mormon settlers in the 1800's who found water there, by the time Las Vegas was starting to become a recognizable town, the wells were already drying up.
There is an area maybe 40 miles from Las Vegas. There is a spring there that has a pool about 15' deep. Pure mountain spring water fills this pool. The water comes from snow melt from the mountains in the desert. It is very picturesque. Not many years ago some developers found this and said "We're going to put 3500 homes here. This spring will ensure that everyone has plenty of water." Some citizens got together and said "we've got to stop this, there is no way that that environment can support that kind of development." Luckily for everyone (particularly the people that would have ended up living there) they succeeded, the area is now a park run by the NPS.
Unfortunately, efforts to maintain the existing water supply levels to these areas are going to cost billions of dollars, cause lots of civil turmoil, and in the end are unlikely change the situation in any meaningful way. Yes, some people will get more of a dwindling supply, but others will end up with less.
Las Vegas has put a drain in the bottom of Lake Mead. They now can get every last drop out of the reservoir. Great, but what's going to happen after they do that and the lake is empty? Pray for rain?
IMO, this planet has likely exceeded it's load limit as far as humans are concerned. Only if we humans change our life style significantly will our planet be able to continue to support us. This change is likely to be most unpleasant. The longer we put it off the worse it will be.
Enough of my soapbox for now.