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Garmarine or Raymin?
- Thread starter cemiii
- Start date
Matt Gurnsey
New member
Hmmm.
Last I heard, FLIR was in talks to buy Raymarine- probably the other party mentioned in the article.
Last I heard, FLIR was in talks to buy Raymarine- probably the other party mentioned in the article.
MTW:ECHART Garmin cash offer for Raymarine http://bit.ly/amz9Lt
Garmin has been in discussion with RayMarine since June 2009. RayMarine has a large debt. The other offer was to pay off the debit and pay 4 pence for a share, then that was withdrawn earlier this week.
Garmin is a much larger company with more diverse products. It will be interesting to see how this plays out--and if RayMarine survives as a company. Garmin has incorporated previous acquistions into its own structure.
Garmin is a much larger company with more diverse products. It will be interesting to see how this plays out--and if RayMarine survives as a company. Garmin has incorporated previous acquistions into its own structure.
Levitation
New member
Because, they can?
And because they have... I bought the very first general aviation GPS on the market, the Pronav 100.. And I do mean the very first - it was the Pronav demo unit at OSHKOSH, serial #1...
Two years later, Garmin had formed and wanted into the GPS market, NOW, so they bought out Pronav and simply changed the label on the case and marketed it as the Garmin 100... And we all know how that turned out for Garmin...
The general rule in business is, it is cheaper in the long run to swallow your competitor than to fight him... I watched one hospital buy another competing hospital for millions of dollars and then simply close it... The projected increase in their business over a 20 year span more than paid the cost of the acquisition and dismantling and the interest on the borrowed money... I watched all this from the inside as I sat on the executive committee of the hospital at the time we sold it, and I later sat on the executive committee of the purchasing hospital, so I was privy to the financial details from both ends...
Another issue, is that Raymarine has a loyal customer base... If a new owner has the cash in hand to settle debt and lower the operating costs and do R&D for newer models, then Raymarine can be a profitable investment...
And because they have... I bought the very first general aviation GPS on the market, the Pronav 100.. And I do mean the very first - it was the Pronav demo unit at OSHKOSH, serial #1...
Two years later, Garmin had formed and wanted into the GPS market, NOW, so they bought out Pronav and simply changed the label on the case and marketed it as the Garmin 100... And we all know how that turned out for Garmin...
The general rule in business is, it is cheaper in the long run to swallow your competitor than to fight him... I watched one hospital buy another competing hospital for millions of dollars and then simply close it... The projected increase in their business over a 20 year span more than paid the cost of the acquisition and dismantling and the interest on the borrowed money... I watched all this from the inside as I sat on the executive committee of the hospital at the time we sold it, and I later sat on the executive committee of the purchasing hospital, so I was privy to the financial details from both ends...
Another issue, is that Raymarine has a loyal customer base... If a new owner has the cash in hand to settle debt and lower the operating costs and do R&D for newer models, then Raymarine can be a profitable investment...
Matt Gurnsey
New member
I'm not sure I see a reason for Garmin to buy Raymarine, unless it is the international market, where Raymarine may be stronger.
Garmin has made strides in the last 5 years in diversifying their product. 5 yaers ago I wrote an article and said that Garmin wanted to be Raymarine (Raymarine would like to be Furuno, Lowrance would like to be Garmin). Garmin is now getting close to having a line up as diverse as Raymarine's, and is actually stronger in the smaller units. With the aquisition of TR-1 Garmin now has an autopilot, and they came up with an instrument line, so I'm not sure what Raymarine has that Garmin doesn't already have.
Garmin may feel that the Raymarine line is more accepted in the yacht market, but I'm not so sure that is the case as much as it used to be. I've been seeing some Garmin product on larger yachts, so there is beginning to be some acceptance of the product. Furuno is still the standard bearer for the yacht market, and nobody has the commercial line that Furuno has.
I think what Navico went through in the last few years should be a cutionary tale, as they aquired Lowrance / Eagle, Simrad and Northstar. Trying to run three seperate divisions and prices points, with shared chasis didn't work so well. Northstar is now gone, existing only as a label on the new Simrad NSE network units (NSE stands for Northstar Edition).
So could Garmin offer Raymarine as a seperate line of products? Why would they? Everyone would know that Raymarine was owned by Garmin, so those resistant to the Garmin brand would be as resistant to Garmin built Raymarine units.
The offer by FLIR makes more sense, as it gives a compnay in the marine electronics field the ability to have a complete product line without having to grow a new brand name.
The one thing I think Garmin should make a bigger deal of is their aviation product. The fact that a marine product is built by a company that can build product that meets rigid FAA requirements would be strong marketing tool- and yet it is never mentioned in Garmin's advertising.
As always, my 2 cents.
Garmin has made strides in the last 5 years in diversifying their product. 5 yaers ago I wrote an article and said that Garmin wanted to be Raymarine (Raymarine would like to be Furuno, Lowrance would like to be Garmin). Garmin is now getting close to having a line up as diverse as Raymarine's, and is actually stronger in the smaller units. With the aquisition of TR-1 Garmin now has an autopilot, and they came up with an instrument line, so I'm not sure what Raymarine has that Garmin doesn't already have.
Garmin may feel that the Raymarine line is more accepted in the yacht market, but I'm not so sure that is the case as much as it used to be. I've been seeing some Garmin product on larger yachts, so there is beginning to be some acceptance of the product. Furuno is still the standard bearer for the yacht market, and nobody has the commercial line that Furuno has.
I think what Navico went through in the last few years should be a cutionary tale, as they aquired Lowrance / Eagle, Simrad and Northstar. Trying to run three seperate divisions and prices points, with shared chasis didn't work so well. Northstar is now gone, existing only as a label on the new Simrad NSE network units (NSE stands for Northstar Edition).
So could Garmin offer Raymarine as a seperate line of products? Why would they? Everyone would know that Raymarine was owned by Garmin, so those resistant to the Garmin brand would be as resistant to Garmin built Raymarine units.
The offer by FLIR makes more sense, as it gives a compnay in the marine electronics field the ability to have a complete product line without having to grow a new brand name.
The one thing I think Garmin should make a bigger deal of is their aviation product. The fact that a marine product is built by a company that can build product that meets rigid FAA requirements would be strong marketing tool- and yet it is never mentioned in Garmin's advertising.
As always, my 2 cents.
one train of thought maybe for $19 mill US buy em and bury them. Takes them out of the market cheap. Lewmar did this over the years for winch makers, as have others in the small field that is recreational boating.
Who knows?
I just wish I'd had a hundred grand or so to buy into Garmin's IPO way back when.
I'd be out like Bill and El!
George
Who knows?
I just wish I'd had a hundred grand or so to buy into Garmin's IPO way back when.
I'd be out like Bill and El!
George
Todays financial news is that RayMarine is still holding out and talking with the third party and holding out at 17.5 Pence (2.5 over the Garmin offer). You have to remember that Garmin is a far larger company than RayMarine. Garmin's earnings were 14x that or RayMarine. FLIR (if they are the 3rd party) is very well capatalized and can easily purchase RayMarine at 19.5 million dollars.
You have to go back through the history of RayMarine--as a spin off of Raytheon to see where they have been as a primary recreational marine company. The other two companies are far more diversified.
You have to go back through the history of RayMarine--as a spin off of Raytheon to see where they have been as a primary recreational marine company. The other two companies are far more diversified.
Matt Gurnsey
New member
4 or 5 years ago I was at a Raymarine product training seminar. They started the presentation by saying that the pleasuerboat electronics division of Raytheon was the only profitable division and so that's why Raytheon sold the division.
In my mind I went "Huh?". Raytheon sold the only profitable division because it was profitable? Made no sense, especially since others in the Marien Electronics industry were saying that Raymarine had financial problems even then.
Raymarine also showed survey results where consumers compared them to the Lexus of the marine electronics world. Kind of ironic now with all of Toyota motor's problems today.
Raymarien products have gotten better, but at the time they were plagued with more out of box failures than any other brand I worked with. Part of their problem as well is all the product they have to take back from West Marine.
West Marine has a very liberal return policy, and all that returned product (which may or may not be defective) is then bought back by Raymarine. At one time that was in the millions of dollars annually. It was a huge number. And many of the returns were due to imrpoper installation and operator error.
I had heard that all of the returns were then sent to the boat builders who were installing Raymarine as a factory option. This included the entire Brunswick family of boats (Bayliner, Sea Ray, Trophy, etc). Then Brunswick bought Navman and Northstar (since sold to Navico).
Raymarine lost a large buyer of product as Bayliner, Trophy and Meridian went with the Brunswick owned electronics (Sea Ray stuck with Raymarine).
In my mind I went "Huh?". Raytheon sold the only profitable division because it was profitable? Made no sense, especially since others in the Marien Electronics industry were saying that Raymarine had financial problems even then.
Raymarine also showed survey results where consumers compared them to the Lexus of the marine electronics world. Kind of ironic now with all of Toyota motor's problems today.
Raymarien products have gotten better, but at the time they were plagued with more out of box failures than any other brand I worked with. Part of their problem as well is all the product they have to take back from West Marine.
West Marine has a very liberal return policy, and all that returned product (which may or may not be defective) is then bought back by Raymarine. At one time that was in the millions of dollars annually. It was a huge number. And many of the returns were due to imrpoper installation and operator error.
I had heard that all of the returns were then sent to the boat builders who were installing Raymarine as a factory option. This included the entire Brunswick family of boats (Bayliner, Sea Ray, Trophy, etc). Then Brunswick bought Navman and Northstar (since sold to Navico).
Raymarine lost a large buyer of product as Bayliner, Trophy and Meridian went with the Brunswick owned electronics (Sea Ray stuck with Raymarine).
toyman":3e66j8yg said:I hope, if this deal comes to fruition, that they don't kill the only (to my knowledge) sub $1000 autopilot out there.
I had not thought of that, very true! :crook (Just bought one for the 22.)
Warren
I'm wanting one (AP), but this summers trip will be ~$1000 worth of Garmin chips. I'd be almost willing to bet that the 1000 goes away - replaced by the more expensive Garmin unit. Mergers (buyouts) have seldom benifited consumers.
I'll get the Garmin chips - it's probably better to know where you are than to get there with less effort.
I'll get the Garmin chips - it's probably better to know where you are than to get there with less effort.
patrick and linda
New member
i've been following this discussion and now have a question. i am in the market for a new radar system, display and dome. what would you guys recommend as a purchase?
appreciate your help.
pat
appreciate your help.
pat
big question. I'm prejudiced I like Garmin stuff, from driving with it and flying with it and boating it's easy to use. They know we're not all techies out here, and make units easy to run. Touch screens are cool.
Furuno is on the commercial boats and is bulletproof. Nice stuff. I like Garmin and Simrad pilots. As said earlier in the thread, raymarine has had tough times the last few years with out of box failures. My boat will remain Raymarine free.
Granted many failures may be owner install issues. raymarine's warranty says units must be installed by a Raymarine qualified installer to keep warranty intact.
Furuno is on the commercial boats and is bulletproof. Nice stuff. I like Garmin and Simrad pilots. As said earlier in the thread, raymarine has had tough times the last few years with out of box failures. My boat will remain Raymarine free.
Granted many failures may be owner install issues. raymarine's warranty says units must be installed by a Raymarine qualified installer to keep warranty intact.
20dauntless
New member
I'm quite happy with my Raymarine equipment, but if I were buying new I'd go with Furuno NavNet 3D.
If you just want a stand alone radar--then Furuno 1715. Good unit, excellent service--not a lot of bells and whistles, but solid.
If you are going to an integrated system and want ease of use--and have the bucks--then Garmin. The best units are Furuno--but that is even more bucks.
The only reason I don't mention Lowrance, (etc) is because of some of the customer response issues--and the lingering questions about Broad brand.
The only reason I would stay away from RayMarine is the question about the companies future.
If you are going to an integrated system and want ease of use--and have the bucks--then Garmin. The best units are Furuno--but that is even more bucks.
The only reason I don't mention Lowrance, (etc) is because of some of the customer response issues--and the lingering questions about Broad brand.
The only reason I would stay away from RayMarine is the question about the companies future.
My boat is all Raymarine but would not be were I to do it again. The technology seems adequate, not great but the killer is the software and owner's manuals. Little if anything on my C-80 system is intuitive. One has to hunt around to find things and they are not in any logical place. The owner's manual is really poorly written. It does not address many of the routine issues an owner would have. A few years ago I started a thread "secrets of Raymarine" to try and help others that are Raymarined. I now know how to operate the system but am quite sure I am missing many good features, I just can't find them and the manual is little help. Were I to upgrade I would look hard at Garmin.
Levitation
New member
I have Garmin in the boat, the plane, and the cars... So I guess, that is a vote for Garmin over the others... Actually it wasn't planned that way, it just turned out...