Furuno vs. Garmin...

The retrieval of a MOB is a topic which I fear would hijack this thread.
I have both written and lectured extensively on this issue.
The best summary is at US Sailing ref the 2005 symposium.
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/2005_cobs.htm

Although there are many systems; the Life Sling is probably the best and easiest to use. On the C Dory, the getting aboard is not as difficult as the sport fisher, or even worse a sundeckk motor yacht. We have the Garhaur Crane Davit, which we can use to hoist a MOB back on THATAWAY. We have practiced with real people in the water (using wet suits). However even swimming several hundred feet in cold and rough water may be close to impossiable--so there are many possibilities.

As Sneaks says, some of the manufactures are going to NMEA 2000. I choose Lowrance because of that (and other features--like all of NOAA charts on the hard drive--identical to what I have on the laptop--so route planning is easy) I don't see a major issue with Furuno going to NMEA 2000--since their Navnet is very similar--but again, not compatable with other products--where as some engine manufactures have output which is directly readable on Raymarine, Lowrance etc (Simrad/Kongsberg, and Lowrance are owned by the same company) It will be interesting to see how it shakes out--bottom line is that there are a number of great products!
 
Agree with Bob.

The lifesling system combined with the 5:1 block and tackle system is excellent for a CD. We connect it with a stainless shackle either to the Radar arch cross member at the side or to the roof rail on our 22. Either way it would let us 1/2way old people get a large person out of the water. We also have a swim platform which could be used by anyone still able to do so. We showed it to a few fellow brats at Bellingham and will try to post some pictures soon.

A bit spendy and hope we never use it but............

Not sure I want my boat to come looking for me if I fall overboard !!

Merv
 
All I mainly know for sure is that the MOB thing clipped on your lifejacket is activated by water pressure and notifies the main helm display. The first, simplest option then is to shut off the engines, maybe for Morse Electronic controls, and autopilots shift to neutral or other actions are possible.

It would be easy for the helmsman not to realize someone had fallen overboard, so the mere notification and MOB activation of GPS, etc., seems pretty valuable to me.

As for Joe's question about what do you do with a huge sport fisher running cirles around you... maybe you can have the boat rigged to deploy a squid setup of lifeslings with which to troll for you!!!

John
 
John,
That does sound like a good idea. I know if we are trolling for example, then whoever is at the helm is concentrating on speed and course and avoiding other objects while he/she at the back is fixated on the tackle and dreaming of fish. Many other situations could also lead to losing one person overboard and not immediately recognising the fact.
I can see that a shutdown would serve to get the attention of the other person on board which is good. That would also give the person overboard at least one possible shot at getting back to the boat.

I don't think I would want the boat making decisions based on some pre-programmed logic as to what it should do without a pair of eyes to guide it !!

Love the idea of trolling lifeslings. Will buy shares today. Now would you prefer to be netted, gaffed or tail tied when you get to the boat or is this catch and release ??? :xlol

Merv
 
Tail tied??? Shark bait??? maybe not...

I'm particularly interested in MOB things since I have twice fallen overboard single handling in situations which seemed peaceful and innocuous, and barely made it back aboard after 1 1/2- 3 hours of trying....

Maybe trolling a big shrimp net would work for me! John
 
From the RayMarine web site:
"In the event of an actual man overboard situation, the victim's LifeTag signal is rapidly degraded by immersion in water, or as the distance between the victim and boat increase (typically 30 feet.) The LifeTag base station responds automatically by sounding an audible alarm onboard to roust other crew members."

I was on a pannel on MOB, where the husband had fallen overboard while sailing downwind offshore, and the wife who was sleeping below just happened to hear him go over or his yell? She came on deck--got a glimpse of the husband, turned on the engine, and with all sheets loose started to power toward him. She lost sight of him several times--but finally got close enough to deploy the Life Sling--it was aft, and not near the helm--she got it out, and found the plastic tie was still on the line. Finally got it deployed--and went in the circle--as she headed down wind, the sails filled and the husband was almost drowned until she get the boat back head to wind. Finally she got him to the stern--and it was almost impossiable to get him aboard.

Bottom line--about 6 months after the seminar--and a year after the incident the husband left the wife for younger pastures!--I sure hope he found a gal who would have come back for him again....or...maybe gaffed him.

No matter what type of boat, one has to have a plan, like Grumpy, which will work, to get a person aboard. Do not assume that even the largest and strongest person the boat can get the other person back aboard. Of course in our C Dory type of boats, the risks are less than most other boats..
 
Thanks for the note about Raymarine's site. The article that mentioned it implied that it did more. However, I am having one of those "Lifetag" units installed on my new TomCat. I guess about all it does is activate the Man Overboard function and sound an alarm, but up in your cold cold waters, I want everyone to know if I hit the drink.

Bob on Thataway... I noticed you had that portable pole to hook your life sling block and tackle up. Do you think a guy could just attach that block and tackle to the tall radar arch and lift from there? Or pull at an angle aft from the radar arch? I am just trying to minimize accessory junk in the cockpit. John
 
John,

Can't speak for the TC buy my block and tackle works fine on a CD22 off either the cross bar at either side of the radar arch OR the roof handrail. I have measured (but not yet tried) and I reckon that this would get the major part of someone's body weight up to a point where you could drag them over the side and dump them into the cockpit.
I like the block and tackle that sells with the Lifesling set because is has a built-in cleat where you can block the hauling line while you attend to the person in the sling. Be rather embarrasing to haul them up to the yard arm (so to speak) and then drop them.

I figure it might cause a few bruises but whoever gets tham should be grateful!!

Let's not forget the other essential. This should be practised a few times so that all members of the crew know how to do it alone !!! I am lacking in that respect and sure as hell not going to try it until next Summer but I do explain it to all who come on board.

Haven't fallen off a power boat yet but am an expert at turning sailboats over. :embarrased

Merv
 
I run a Garmin small chartplotter with bluechart chips next to the E-80 with the Platinum Navionics charts. After 4 or 5 Garmin units, there was a learning curve with the Raymarine. Most of the time, the two agree. When there is obvious charting error (based on what the eyeballs see), they seem to agree on that, as well. I have always been a big fan of Garmin, but the Platinum charting available on the Raymarine is my preference over the Garmin.

I have no experience with the Furuno, but I sure am pleased with the Raymarine radar, and especially the integration. I understand the concerns about what happens if something fails, but I think the advantages while it's working outweigh that, at least for us. (You pay your money, you make your choice.) Thus the reason for a backup chartplotter (internal battery capable) and another handheld unit. I also carry two handheld VHF radios for backup, as well.

I had occasion to find out what Raymarine factory service is like recently... the ST6002 autopilot began behaving badly, and the closest servicing dealer is over 150 miles away. After some troubleshooting on the phone with Raymarine support, I removed the display unit and sent it in for repair. They had it back to me in 9 days, and that included Thanksgiving in the middle of that. I was very impressed.

And regarding that whole "British vs Japanese" debate... I think the days of Lucas (aka the Prince of Darkness) lights and unreliable old English sports cars are in the past. If any product, regardless of the country of origin, can't compete in a world market, they won't last. Are we discussing Jaguar vs Mitsubishi or an old Toyota pickup vs an MGB? :wink

I'm pleased with the nav setup on Wild Blue; it works and has gotten us home in some low vis, crappy weather situations. :thup

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Amen to the remark about Raymarine service. I had a C-80 crap out on me and after you get past the inevitable ritual of service calls to a person who ignores 90% of the described symptoms they eventually tell you to send it back.
Repaired and returned in about 1 week with no questions asked.
Merv
 
We have done experiments--and the US sailing has done much more--on various rigs to get a person aboard. We do believe that a 6 part tackle will allow most people to get a large person aboard over the side--the Radar Arch on the side, is as good as you will get on the C Dory--because there is enough lift to get a person into the cockpit.

We have the Garhaur davit for lifting the generator, generator fuel tank, ice chests and the dinghy--so it is not MOB specific, but an apaption of something which has other uses. On the Cal 46, we had a 9' off the deck Radar arch, which had both an attatchment for a block and tackle, an electric windlass (cable) and a single block to winches--which had other uses (such as bringing the RIB aboard)--as well as retrieving MOB.

We also made a float "tail" with short lifting pennant, and float which would allow a person on a high freeboard boat to get the lifting point of the Life sling.

Needless to say, safety harnesses with jacklines, solid life lines etc to keep people aboard are far better than dealing with MOB.
 
My new 2007 Tomcat 255 is arriving this Dec replacing my C-dory 22 angler..
My 1990 Angler had Furuno Radar..Chartplotter/Sounder when I brought it in 2005 After 15years the Furuno's were still working like new when I sold it.
For my new 07 Tomcat it will be ALL FURUNO electronics even the VHF and auto pliot.
I was REALLY tempted by the Raymarine E-80 E120 with all the bells and whistles &3D .....................
but it really boiled down to this ..RELIABILITY
when I went to the "hull truth"electronics forum http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=8
and saw all the threads titled... "RayMarine Problems""Raymarine strikes again"...with very few Furuno issues..thats all it took....FURUNO ALL THE WAY....it may cost more but when you are spending $125000.00 for a boat..WHY SKIMP?? Why do you think you cannot buy Furuno at "Westmarine or Cabelas?? Because it is of Commerial Quality

The last Tomcat 255 sold at my Dealer.."Outboard Motor Shop" Oakland Ca. was out fitted with all Raymarine E-80 units "two" front and rear...and guess what ??Problems....the unit blacks out..off and on ..the shop is still working on it...I looked in the Hull truth forum..and there it was "Raymarine Problem".."screen blacks out"
My list for my new TomCat is as follows:

Furuno Navet Vx2 1834CBB 4kW 24" Dome BlacK Box Radar/cmap Chartplotter
Big Bay DIBM-10.4 10.4" XGA (1024x768) Indoor/outdoor High Bright Powder Coated Opti-Max and dimmingf control
Furuno Navnet BBWGPS Blackbox GPS Receiver
Furuno Navnet BBFFI External Sounder Module
Furuno Transom Mount Multisensor with 10 pin
Furuno Navnet 520 Hydraulic Autopilot system
Furuno FM3000 VHF Radio water proof Scanner
Shakesphere HD Mast
Pioneer DEH-P6800 CD Reciever Organic EL Display ipod ready Sirius Ready
Navionics Gold Chart us west

Due to the limited space on top of the Dash of the Tomcat I opted for the Big Bay...recomended by the dealer" ...Flat screen display 10" or 12" mounted on a adjustible pole mount on top of the dash The Furuno buttons and mouse ball
for the unit mounted on the front of the dash for Easy access.

Again my reasioning for Furuno is...
Lexus "Japan"
or
Jaguar " UK"
which is most relieable??

But...... to each his own!!

Dick
Orinda, Ca
 
I could not find the "Raymarine strikes again" quote on the Hull Truth-Electonics site. I did find a thread where a guy describes his problem calibrating his Furuno gps and another Raymarine quote:

"I used the Raymarine equipment for 3 years and it was bullet proof, no hicups what-so-ever. The Ray HD FF technology is dynamite as is the Furuno. You can't go wrong either way you go."

With Furuno being mainly commercial equipment, I doubt many deep sea business operators are hanging around the internet chatrooms alot. I think the average sport users, e.g., Raymarine, Garmin, etc., are more likely to be posting.

'sorry to hear your CA acquaintance is having problems with BOTH units... that kind of favors some power/installation problem, to my thinking. It would seem odd for two displays to go out at the same time, regardless of the manufacturer.

John
 
Squidslayer;

I ended up putting all garmin products on my new Tomcat, for the same reasons you want the Furuno products, experience of reliability. I have had Garmin products for years and they seem to be bullet proof. I have a good friend that swears by Furuno and he has had good luck with his electronics. Today's electronics are good, reguardless of mfg. Good luck with your new Tomcat. I chose an overhead mounting system for my electronics, using RAM mounts. I have posted some photos of the mounts in this site. Take a look at the mount for the Garmin 3210, every day that I use it I like it even more. The Outboard center in Oakland has a great group of salespeople. Even though I didn't purchase from them they were very helpfull when I was shopping.
Good Luck
Gene Morris
 
With two identical posts on the Furuno gear--the other in "Furuno choice for new Tom Cat" it alsmost sounds like a Furuno Ad--but I know that Furuno doesn't do that. I was a little curious about a 15 year old Furuno chartplotter/sounder. To my knowlege Furuno didn't make a chart plotter 15 years ago--and I outfitted a boat will all Furuno 14 years ago. The GPS 30 was only a reciever--not a chart plotter. Furuno actually laged behind the industry on chart plotters and their plotters until relitatively recently had a slow redraw time.

The Hull Truth electronics has some excellent information, (as do the other parts of the site)--But I am impressed by the lack of complaints about RayMarine, considering what the past history of the company had been--and the large volume of units out there being used. I currently don't own any RayMarine products--but had good service out of a Radar (actully was JVC under Raytheon name before the split)--and several autopilots.

Many problems with electronics are due to low voltage, corrosion, not isolating the electronics from engine starting batteries, and not having good filters when appropiate.

One of the best sites on electronics is Ben Ellison's "Panbo":
http://www.panbo.com/ Ben is the electronics editor for Power and Motor Yacht. He not only keeps his ear to the ground--but travels to all of the trade shows and has a lot of insider information. Ben also tries out many of the units on his boats and searches out the defects.

There are also several of the online sellers of electronics who have excellent backgrounds and knowlege--if you are up to doing the installation yourself--and saves a bundle of bucks! I have found 25 to 35% savings on some items.

Of course I suspect that most of what we buy is actually made in China, Korea or India...So I am not sure that the country where the company has its headquarters is pertinant... My 3 month old Furuno Radar was made in Korea! So it may actually be a Daewoo, Kia, or Hyundai rather than a Lexas...(some Lexus models are built in Canada) :-).

Anyway--congratulations on the Furuno package--it'll do you well!
 
Speaking of the "country of origin" riddle... about 10 years ago, a small NE US town's population threw a fit when the town bought a japanese brand earth digging machine. The town rose to the challenge, sold the Japanese brand and bought a good old American, John Deere earth digging machine to replace it. Low and behold, when all the dust had settled, the one with the Japanese brand name actually contained more American parts than the "American" John Deere brand!

Even if you find a TV, stereo, or switch of American brand, most of the components are made in Mexico, or overseas too.

there is a big Garmin production plant here in Kansas and I really liked their 3210 units, esp., the size and extras in their packages. I will prob get a Garmin portable for backup.

And, if I win the lottery, I may invest in a $12,000 flashlight/search sonar unit from Furuno!

John

John
 
When I bought my Tom Cat, I went to Anacortes Marine Electronics here in town and asked owner Bryan Hennessy http://www.anacortesmarine.com/ to recommend a system. As you can see, he carries all the major brands. He installed a 100% RayMarine E80 system, complete with fishfinder(with through-hull transducer), autopilot, radar, AIS, weather radio (important for me because I'm deaf and can't hear the radio) and marine radio (for my crew to use). It's NMEA2000 and tied into the Yamaha Multifunction gauges (also on the NMEA 2000 bus). I can't yet vouch for the reliability or performance, but I can tell you I appreciated Bryan's low-key, fact-based sales job, and his crew's installation expertise.

So FWIW, Bryan could have put me into Furuno, Garmin, Simrad, or others, but chose to sell me a RayMarine unit. And he knows I am local and that I will be coming back if there is a problem.

BTW maybe it's bling, but I went with the Navionics Platinum charts. The cost premium was a very small percentage of the overall cost of the system.

Just one data point in this discussion.

Warren
 
I really do not want to sound like a Furuno salesman...
but I'm just trying to justify in my mind WHY I would spend more money for a Furuno system..... than a Raymarine or Garmin system . I really like the E-120 Raymarine and love Garmin 3210 GPSMAP...but I guess RELIABLITY to me is more important that 3D or "the latest"

I am having second thoughts however...

thanks to everybodys input...

I have not installed ANYthing yet ..the Tomcat is due Dec 29th for outfitting
I do Salmon, lingcod, halibut out the Golden Gate Bridge SF in dense fog .. Rough seas and heavy Cargo Ship traffic ...
.....tuna somtimes up to 50miles offshore .
And this does not help!!.........
In the Electronics Forum of the C-Brats..I counted 8 posts that had Raymarine problems in their titles.....
Furuno had 0
thehulltruth forum which is not all C-Dorys does not favor Raymarine either
Going by gut feeling rather that common sense???
Thanks again to EVERYONE
Dick E
255Tomcat ETA DEC29
 
I have had several GPS units. I love the Garmins.
As far as my boat is concerned though... Furuno all the way...
The service center is just across the bridge. My equipment works hard (when it gets to work) and Furuno has proven that they stand behind their products.
I recently sent my dome in for repairs... It came back below the estimate and they even picked up the shipping.
The next electronic package on my boat will be Furuno and I can recommend them without reservation.
I am gonna buy another Garmin for my motorcycle though ;)
 
SquidSlayer, If you really are going out the Golden Gate in dense fog, rough seas etc (I have been thru this area in those conditions, but in much larger boats)--I would strongly suggest that you invest in an AIS unit. That is the biggest safety item--even if you just have a reciever.
This shows you where a ship is, what her speed is, what her course is, what rate of turn, where bound, where from, Her dimensions and even something about the cargo.
 
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