Fuel additives
- Thread starter Micahbigsur@msn.com
- Start date
Draining the carburetors on the Honda 90's is very easy. Each of the 4 carburetors has a screw at the bottom of the throttle body, which drains out all of the gas mixture. I have a little piece of 1/4" clear plastic hose to fit on each drain. A turn with a screw driver is all it takes to drain the fuel out...It is easier on the engine than running out the fuel.
Nearing 15 years on my boat, 1800 hours, and only once -- when I first bought it and didn't really know how long it had been parked -- that I had carb issues, rough running, poor idling, and dying when throttling up. Had to have the carbs, (all 6 -- twin 40 Yamis), cleaned and rebuilt. The Yamaha certified mechanic explained it simple. "Use any gas you want, park it any time you want for as long as you want, Just plan on bringing it in every Spring for the whole clean and rebuild process again. Easy. OR Use STABIL anytime you are leaving the boat to sit." He also added that Startron was recommended.
That was before the Stabil 360 was around but not long after the Blue (Marine) version was introduced.
I don't use the Stabil with every fill, only the last one of the trip. The Startron is added when I fill at someplace that doesn't look like they move their fuel through very fast, (some of the marinas up north, or some road stations, or if it is E-10 fuel). The Ring Free has been reformulated and now includes fuel stabilizer. A note on the RingFree: It appears to turn the oil dark early on in the use cycle. I had dark oil, after using it, took it in to get it checked, and again in less than 20 hours the oil is dark again. Both engines, same result. I did learn previously that the ring free does clean the cylinders and so that is to be expected.
Also note, Automotive engines will have issues with E-10 if they are older than about 2005, when it was mandated to start using it and they started re specing fuel system hose and gaskets and fittings. Marine (outboard) engines are way behind in that design process. E-15 will eat our outboards. There are reasons BoatUS has been opposing Ethanol for marine fuels for years. I agree with Bob, It is not the farmers, they are growing crops. It is the government that is turning there crops into outboard wrecking fluid.
The following are from the rebuild. The engine had just under 80 hours on it and it sat for 6-10 months, from paring until I got it and took it out, Tried to.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
That was before the Stabil 360 was around but not long after the Blue (Marine) version was introduced.
I don't use the Stabil with every fill, only the last one of the trip. The Startron is added when I fill at someplace that doesn't look like they move their fuel through very fast, (some of the marinas up north, or some road stations, or if it is E-10 fuel). The Ring Free has been reformulated and now includes fuel stabilizer. A note on the RingFree: It appears to turn the oil dark early on in the use cycle. I had dark oil, after using it, took it in to get it checked, and again in less than 20 hours the oil is dark again. Both engines, same result. I did learn previously that the ring free does clean the cylinders and so that is to be expected.
Also note, Automotive engines will have issues with E-10 if they are older than about 2005, when it was mandated to start using it and they started re specing fuel system hose and gaskets and fittings. Marine (outboard) engines are way behind in that design process. E-15 will eat our outboards. There are reasons BoatUS has been opposing Ethanol for marine fuels for years. I agree with Bob, It is not the farmers, they are growing crops. It is the government that is turning there crops into outboard wrecking fluid.
The following are from the rebuild. The engine had just under 80 hours on it and it sat for 6-10 months, from paring until I got it and took it out, Tried to.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Comment for Bob (Thataway);
I'm unclear on how running the Honda 90 out of fuel could damage it or be hard on it. This was the first I'd heard that could be a problem.
I do drain the carbs as you do when I store it for a while, including every time I remove the boat from the water since it is easier and less messy then, but not when I plan to use the boat again soon. In that case, I still run it out of fuel.
I am a forester and I've pretty much done this with every motor, 2-cycle and 4-cycle, gas outboards (6, all still running), lawn mowers (5, all still running), trimmers and weed whackers, chain saws (8 of them, all running), leaf blowers (2), a gasoline winch, 3 generators (one about 20 years old).
Every gas engine I own except my truck. I only run that out of fuel when I am going to be not run it for a few months. The only problem with a gasoline engine I have had was when someone broke into my remote mountain shed, put some old gas in my fuel-injected 4-wheeler. I doubt they could start it. It sat in the shed for several months of very cold temperatures until Spring. Needed the injectors cleaned. Runs now.
To be honest, I take all of your comments to heart, and if there can be a problem with this carbed Honda 90 by running it out of gas that you know of, I will quit doing that so often and empty the carbs more often. I would imagine others here are listening to your comments too.
Respectfully, Rob Harrison
I'm unclear on how running the Honda 90 out of fuel could damage it or be hard on it. This was the first I'd heard that could be a problem.
I do drain the carbs as you do when I store it for a while, including every time I remove the boat from the water since it is easier and less messy then, but not when I plan to use the boat again soon. In that case, I still run it out of fuel.
I am a forester and I've pretty much done this with every motor, 2-cycle and 4-cycle, gas outboards (6, all still running), lawn mowers (5, all still running), trimmers and weed whackers, chain saws (8 of them, all running), leaf blowers (2), a gasoline winch, 3 generators (one about 20 years old).
Every gas engine I own except my truck. I only run that out of fuel when I am going to be not run it for a few months. The only problem with a gasoline engine I have had was when someone broke into my remote mountain shed, put some old gas in my fuel-injected 4-wheeler. I doubt they could start it. It sat in the shed for several months of very cold temperatures until Spring. Needed the injectors cleaned. Runs now.
To be honest, I take all of your comments to heart, and if there can be a problem with this carbed Honda 90 by running it out of gas that you know of, I will quit doing that so often and empty the carbs more often. I would imagine others here are listening to your comments too.
Respectfully, Rob Harrison
Thru the years I have heard of several issues. In the small engines, I tend to run them dry. The Honda 90 was very easy to drain, and so I did that.
Here are some of the arguments I have heard:
After running the carb dry and leaving the engine sit for as short as one week I find that the float needle valve sticks in the open position.
The second holds true more for 2 strokes, where the lubrication is from the oil which is in the gas, and that is as the engine runs out of fuel, it is running a very lean mixture. There is therefor less lubrication of the cylinder walls.
There still will be some small amount of fuel in the carbs if you run it dry--draining should get all of the fuel out of the bowl.
Injected engines there is a pretty good argument not to run out--that is the lubrication of injector pumps is by the fuel, and it is hard on the injector pumps. The injected system remains at high pressure, and no oxygen gets into the fuel to cause degradation.
On my Honda generator if I have had to run it on ethanol laced fuel, I tend to drain the carburetor, and squirt a little cleaner in, let it drain out.
So, best for my carbed Honda 90 is to shut down, unhook, and just drain carburetors. Don't run dry. Doesn't that leave gas in all of the hoses and system leading to final mix and combustion in the carburetor, even if the carburetor is empty? I had thought not having ethanol gas in contact with the hoses, gaskets and O-rings particularly the internal ones, is good practice. However, I replaced most of them, as well as most of the O-rings (some were clearly damaged), so that may not be the issue I thought it might be. Thanks for your informative posts, Bob.
I run my small engines "dry", even though there is (dyno) fuel in the tank w/ stabilizer. Power washer, lawn mower etc. Do the same with our Suzuki 2.5. On our 9.9 Tohatsu kicker I even pull the bronze plug on the fuel bowl and let the tiny bit of remaining gas out. That's because we sometimes fill with e10 from Costco or Safeway. It runs off the boats main gas tank.
Do it every fall...so far, so good.
The old VWs are more laborious. I have to go out and "run" them monthly; enough to warm them up. Even when I dont' drive them. My one car has some very expensive (Spanish) Weber carbs on it. I try to only run dyno gas in them, but sometimes I have to fill and the only stations up here in the People's Republic of WA all have E10.
Yes! It's cheap and easy. Especially when you consider the alternative. And like I said, I'm religious about it.
Do it every fall...so far, so good.
The old VWs are more laborious. I have to go out and "run" them monthly; enough to warm them up. Even when I dont' drive them. My one car has some very expensive (Spanish) Weber carbs on it. I try to only run dyno gas in them, but sometimes I have to fill and the only stations up here in the People's Republic of WA all have E10.
Yes! It's cheap and easy. Especially when you consider the alternative. And like I said, I'm religious about it.
Micahbigsur@msn.com
New member
You guys are all great I just ordered 2 bottles of the marine 360 you guys and Practical Sailor like.
Which reminded me of something else when when I saw the Sierra fuel filters in West Marine, I know they are cheaper but according to Practical sailors report on the internal construction they are just that, cheaply made compared to the premium brands like Racor. I don't think after buying a new 200 hp outboard ($$$$) that I want anything less than the best factory recommended or Racor filter in line.
As far as small outboards go here is my bad story. Just before we left California for Mexico on our sailboat in 2011 we decided we should buy a new outboard, our small local "express" West Marine had a new 3.5 Mercury in stock that we bought, loaded on the boat and took off. We didn't need it till Cabo. When I put it on the dinghy almost immediately it ran rough, it must have been run at West Marine and left for months in the low volume store because when I pulled the carb apart the float bowl was filled with ethanol gas jello, and using carb cleaner I couldn't get every little passage clean as it never did run right.
Which reminded me of something else when when I saw the Sierra fuel filters in West Marine, I know they are cheaper but according to Practical sailors report on the internal construction they are just that, cheaply made compared to the premium brands like Racor. I don't think after buying a new 200 hp outboard ($$$$) that I want anything less than the best factory recommended or Racor filter in line.
As far as small outboards go here is my bad story. Just before we left California for Mexico on our sailboat in 2011 we decided we should buy a new outboard, our small local "express" West Marine had a new 3.5 Mercury in stock that we bought, loaded on the boat and took off. We didn't need it till Cabo. When I put it on the dinghy almost immediately it ran rough, it must have been run at West Marine and left for months in the low volume store because when I pulled the carb apart the float bowl was filled with ethanol gas jello, and using carb cleaner I couldn't get every little passage clean as it never did run right.
When you pull the hose off at the entrance to the motor (after the bulb, the fuel filter etc) you are still leaving fuel in the lines. I have not had any problem with ethanol, with the proper hoses. The place I have had problem is the gumming up of the jets, and even the float pivots and float valve. No problem with the lines where there is some pressure and little interface with air (oxygen, or evaporation)
When there is an internal tank--it is hard to get all of the fuel out. The portable outboard tanks are not too much of a problem--but usually disconnected at the motor, not the tank.
Running the fuel out does use more fuel, than draining the carbs, where you can easily collect the fuel, and burn it in another engine. (I used to put all of the reject fuel from the boat in my truck),
When I tear down a carburetor, I let them soak in carburetor cleaner for a day. Then begin to blow out all of the orifices with compressed air. One of the problems is we don't normally carry a satisfactory air compressor on the C Dory, but I do have one in my truck. (Viair 450P, will pump over 1 cu foot per min at 80 PSI and continue to inflate tires up to 130 PSI). I find that to clean out the jets often you do need significant air pressure and volume.
Is it really better for the Honda 90 to drain the carbs vs running it dry (where is it disconnected?). Frankly, it probably makes little difference, in that there are so many other factors in the longevity of outboard motors. For me it was easier to drain the carbs--it also gives me a chance to check the oil, and spray parts subject to potential corrosion with "Corrosion block". Check the hoses and wiring, lubrication of cables etc.