ETEC Cold Water Performance

T

tpbrady

New member
With all the recent comments on which outboard to use for powering a C-Dory, I have to relate my experience to date with a 90 ETEC. Since taking delivery of a CD22 in April, I have put 114 hours on the main engine. My overall assessment at this point is the ETEC is not suitable for use in cold water climates (water temperatures less than 50 degrees F). The reasons for this assessment are based on several PM's between Dusty and I comparing the performance of his engine to mine and the fact that Evinrude could not explain the differences. Here are the problems I encountered:

a. During April, May, and part of June the EMM would return a no oil alarm after a few minutes of operation. The alarm could be cleared and the engine would operate normally if the oil system was primed using the instructions in the owner's manual. The problem cleared in June after replacing the oil tank which included all the sensors but that coincided with higher air and water termperatures. When the problem recurred the end of September, Evinrude went back to the drawing board and finally came up with the solution. Apparently the recommended XD100 oil viscosity increases so much with declining temperatures, it does not flow well enough to keep the sensors convinced the engine is getting oil. Evinrude recommended using SkiDoo XPS synthetic snow machine oil. In the last 12.4 hours of operation during temperatures ranging between 28 and 48 degrees F, I had no oil alarms. I think this problem is finally behind me.

b. Oil consumption over the 114 hours was approximately 3 times the oil consumption expected (and seen by Dusty). Evinrude examined engine reports on two occasions and after more than a month recommended the dealer look at the cooling system as their assessment the motor was running too cold. Their review of engine operating showed that it should have consumed 1.2 gallons of oil during which time I had used 3.5 gallons. The dealer found that the thermostat was allowing the engine to run 30 degrees cooler than a new thermostat. When I ran the boat with the new thermostat, the engine sounded much different, (it was quieter), ran smoother over the full rpm range, and fuel economy increase almost 30% (from 3.5 to 4.5 mpg with the same load). Prior to the new thermostat, the engine showed its best fuel economy at WOT.

c. During extensive low speed trolling the engine fouled the plugs. After trolling for approximately 2.5 hours, when increasing the throttle the engine was missing on two of three cylinders for about 5 seconds and eventually smoothed out.

d. On my last trip, the water temperatures averaged between 40 and 45 degrees F and the air temperature was between 25 and 45 degrees F. Fuel consumption declined back to the 3 to 3.5 mpg range, and oil consumption was unchanged. The engine got its best fuel economy at WOT.

My assessment is the cooling system on the ETEC does not allow the engine to reach the proper operating temperature to run efficiently in cold environments where the air and water temperatures are below 50 degrees F.

If anyone has any different experience in a cold environment, I would like to here about it.
 
What engine is Dusty running?

A: Evinrude claims it's oil to be rated down to 32 degree F
Are you getting info directly from Evinrude? Or from your dealer?

B: Engine temp has a direct bearing on running performance, especially at low speeds. Sound like the temp issue resolved some of your problems.

C & D: It sounds as though you have an oiling problem for certain. I might recomend you try your dealer once again to resolve this. If they cannot, then you need a better informed dealer.

In either case, Call BRP Customer Support Services at 847-689-7090 and let them know of your issue. The more they know about your issue, the more likely you'll get a solution. They may be able to get a service rep to take a look. I wouldn't be surprised if BRP has never even been contacted about your engine.

As for cold weather... The water here freezes at 32 degrees. But folks fish with these engines right up(down) to that point. While I have seen very minor issues with an Etec, I sure haven't seen problems like you have. I have several customers with Etecs from 40-90hp that rave about the performance. I don't have many with the larger engines yet... more info to follow...
 
I think Dusty is running the same model (E90DSLSO). I have been talking with BRP's customer service line regularly and the dealer and the dealer has been talking with BRP. No one has been able to explain it. The recommendation on using the SkiDoo XPS oil came from BRP. I think the issue is water temperature and overall operating temperature for the most part, but I still think there is an oil issue. I am hoping to get time with the factory representative supporting Alaska in the next month or so when he is in town.

I would appreciate any thing you can offer in the way of answers to these questions.

Have you ever had an ETEC foul plugs?

Do you have any ETEC's on boats with fuel flow meters? Do they see best fuel economy at WOT?

What oil consumption do you see on ETEC 90's operated on boats like a CD-22?
 
Sounds like you're on the right track to get it fixed... Keep talking to BRP!
When you stop contacting them, they assume you got it taken care of!

Water temp is not the issue. The thermostat keeps the water temp constant, no matter what the coolant(water) temp. It's the sole purpose of having a thermostat.(no matter which engine, even an inboard)

Somone is missing a diagnosis... something in the oiling has failed, or the engine is stuck in "break-in" mode.

I have never seen Etecs foul plugs.(not much info in that statement, just my experience)

Best fuel economy never happens at WOT... on any engine... Yours ertainly has issues, no denying that. Most of the Etecs run in the neighborhood of 40+hours on a oil tank fill ( programmed to run XD100 and running XD100)
 
I am a brand new C Dory dealer... I don't have one rigged with an Etec yet. My first 22 cruiser will have a 90 Etec though. The motor is already here, the boat should be by Nov 1st...
 
I have the same E-tec you have and ran it all summer. I have about the same hours as yours around 115, at least going by what my Garmin GPS says. Until I put the boat in the shop and have a laptop hooked up to it to get the real hours thats the best reading I have. I was told that with the XD 100 oil properly programed you should get 100 hours on a tank of oil. I just started my second tank. He said that E-tec's normally come programed for XD 50 oil and have to be programed for the XD 100. The rate you are burning is the rate of XD 50 as I understand, you might question that.

I do have the same problem with the plugs though. If I us it alot for trolling the plugs do start to foul after a few hours, rough starting back up and a little stinky but no smoke. This was not a problem at first but started after around 40 hours. What I found was happening was trolling was fouling the plugs enough to cause the electrode to burn and widen the gap. The gap that should be 30 thousands +- 3% was out to 40 thousands. New set of plugs and I am back to normal running. I am now on my 3rd set of plugs, not good since they are supposed to last 300 hours. I am now setting up my kicker to troll with EZ Steer and Troll Master for next year as I have no problem if I don't troll with it at below 900 rpm for long times. My E-tec mechanic say Evinrudes have had a lot of problems in the past with running to cold at slow speeds in cold water and thinks this may be the problem.

The oil light problem, yes I to had that problem too but with me it was not a problem with the oil. I would start heading out, get about 5 min. run time and light would come on an engine would kick into idle to protect itself. I would reset every thing and it would be fine or maybe do it one more time. Well what I found by looking at my fuel lines, it was sucking all the fuel out of my kicker motor fuel line then sucking air. In fact it sucked it so hard it broke the valve in the squeeze ball for the kicker. I put fuel valves on both the main line and the kicker line so I can turn off the one not in use and have not had it happen since.

Well that is my experience so far with my E-tec and the Mech's. I still love the motor and have faith that they will work the few bugs out. :wink

Wayne
 
Wayne,

We've been around the tree several times on the XD100 XD50 setting and the diagnostics return it is definitely set on XD100. Even if we assumed it was set on XD50 in the last 12.4 hours of running I used 51 gallons of gas and 57 oz of oil. With a little over 3 quarts of oil in the tank. that equates to at best about 28 hours of running on a single tank. As I understand it, that is high oil consumption for even XD50.

Interesting comment on the spark plugs though. In the cooling system I was told there is a bypass for cooling water that allows less water to flow through the power head to allow it to heat up. Makes sense as the thermostat has to control something. Evinrude indicated that oil consumption is higher during warmup of the engine so that is why they were focusing on the engine running colder than it should. It also accounts for fouling plugs during extended trolling.

The main argument about the engine running colder is the best economy being reached at WOT. That is very unusual to say the least. Thermostats are supposed to maintain a relatively constant engine operating temperature, but in the winter when it is below zero, I really need to block the air flow through the radiator to get the diesel up to the proper temperature. I am getting the impression with the thermostat closed on the ETEC, there is still enough water flow through the powerhead to keep it from heating up properly when the the water temperatures are below 50 F.

Thanks for the input.
 
I think you are on the right track about it being a cooling system problem. However I would first check to see what thermostat is on the motor. And if possible get a thermostat rated for around 180 degrees. For some reason most outboards I've read about have 130 degree thermostats. That is fine for Florida and the like but not nearly so good for colder climates.

Basically the computer is setting the motor to run at a much richer setting than needed due to the cold engine temperature. This then causes more oil usage as the fuel/oil mixture is a fairly set ratio by the computer. The reason the motor has the best economy at WOT is that the fuel mixture is the closest to what it should be as it doesn't have to run as rich when cold at WOT. This then asks the question of if the temp sensor is actually bad on the motor? If it were delivering the wrong temp to the computer it will set the fuel/oil mixture wrong and you will have a bad running engine.

What you are describing is very similar to what would happen if someone were to run with full choke on a carbureted motor.
 
Do you have the only 90 Etec in your area?
Are the others having problems?

If they don't need a higher temp T-stat, then you don't either.
Assuming the water temp they are in is close to what you are in.

Remember; fuel and oil are separate on this engine, save a very minor amount of oil injected into the fuel.

By the way... there is a EMM remap available. Has this been addressed?
Have you been getting a code"38"?

Etec remap: Addresses field issues with Code 38, cold weather operation. Altered oil temperature compensation.
 
At this point, I think I have the only ETEC used on saltwater. Most of the others I am aware of are used on rivers and a lot of them are jets. The jets are generally run at high rpm all the time, but the one I owner I spoke with didn't see anything close to the oil consumption I experienced.

As far as software is concerned, I got the update in June and after the most recent run of problems with the no oil alarm, the impression I got from Evinrude was they thought the problem was solved with the patch, but were starting to get some indications that wasn't true. That's why they came up with the SkiDoo oil fix. They also were considering an update to the XD100 blend. (For my money I would just relabel the XPS oil).

I really think I have two problems that are somewhat mutually reinforcing. If the engine is running too cold, it will certainly burn more fuel and oil. At the same time it shouldn't burn that much oil given other owner's experiences. The conversation I had with BRP after they examined the EMM engine report and told me I should have consumed 1.2 gallons of oil and I had put over 3.5 gallons in the engine was quite interesting. It took a few minutes for the technician to understand that regardless of what the software said, the motor went through over 3.5 gallons of oil. BRP has asked for yet another engine report, but the boat is stored for the winter. If I can get hold of a PDA and cable, I should be able to get it for them, but I don't see where I will get much done before spring. If BRP wants to try some cold weather testing, I can probably help. Otherwise, I think their best move is to take the engine off the boat and get it back to the factory and see what's going on.
 
We've pretty much tabled it until spring (March some time), but this what I plan to do and Evinrude has agreed to help.

a. Install a new software map for the EMM.
b. Install new plugs since the current ones are pretty well fouled.
c. Switch back to XD100 oil.
d. Go out with a notebook computer running the BRP diagnostic software connected to the engine for real time monitoring to determine actual operating temperature and oil consumption.
e. Stay in cell phone range to discuss real time monitoring results with BRP.

I wish I could have resolved this before winter, but it doesn't look like it. The best I can tell my engine is the exception but that doesn't necessarily make me any happier.
 
That sounds like a good plan of attack. BTW: You might notice the motor run differently with the cover off so be sure to take that into consideration during your test.

I hope you get this figured out. Did they give you a contingency plan should you not find the problem on your next test?
 
Sorry I missed this thread - been busy on other things.

My e-tec 90 ran 100% of the time in salt water. Cool salt water (usually +/- 40 degrees). My first tank of oil lasted about 80 hours (when the light came on I refilled)... just like the book says it should.

No problem with trolling and fouling plugs - just trouble catching fish :cry:

I liked the e-tec enough to put a 90 e-tec on my 19 ft. aluminum Kalamath -- and will put a 50 e-tec on the 16 ft. aluminum Kalamath which will replace the 19 ft. as a lake/crab/shrimp boat.

Fuel consumption has been excellent -- very similar to the 90 Honda -- slightly better at troll speed, comparable at cruise, and slightly higher at WOT. (These are carefully measured and often tested numbers on both engines). The no service requirement for 300 hours is a huge plus for me. Certainly not a plus in Tom's case.

Would I buy the e-tec again? You betcha. I'm certainly surprised at the lack of support that Tom has had -- and doubt that it is typical.

Dusty
 
C-Fisher,

I'll be using one of the dealer computers with the software. I did price the software and cable and it is right at $400. I think the Palm Pilot version and cable is around $150, but it doesn't do all the PC version does from what I hear.

Dusty,

While I've had a bad experience so speak, I think the major problem I have is no one believed it was doing this until late August. When BRP called me at 4 AM the other morning with the results of their engineering review of what was happening, I knew they were concerned, just a little off on time zones. What I have learned from this with your help and the other members of the forum, is what the engine should be doing. I would probably buy and ETEC again, I just would be more informed about how it should work. Even consuming more oil and running colder than it should, it ran better than any two stroke I have ever had. From other's experiences, it isn't just another two stroke. I look forward to getting to that point.
 
Thanks for the reply, I guess for $400. I to will use the dealers also. One other thing I learned was how replacing the plugs works. They have to be put in so that the open side of the electrode faces the injector. Well the problem is that the 90 E-Tec is an inline 3 cylinder. With the larger E-Tec's with the V 4 or V 6 cylinders you have pretty good odds to get half to point one way when threaded in and half the other. With the 90 you may get 3 facing right and 3 facing the wrong way that you can't use. At over $5. each online it can get expensive to do it yourself.
 
C-Fisher,

Where'd you pick up the information on the plugs? At first blush, it almost sounds like a left handed screw driver problem. Since the threads on the plug will only engage the threads in the block at one starting point, the plug manufacturer would have to knowingly make two types of plugs with different thread alignments. You would think after going to all that trouble, they would label them left or right.
 
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