Electric Over Hydraulic - Needed?????

Wandering Sagebrush

Wandering Sagebrush

Free Range Human
When we bought our new truck, and came screaming into the age of neat things like tow-haul features, I've been wondering if I should change the trailer over to EOH, or just plan on replacing pads on the surge brakes every now and then. I am not sure where the ROI point is for EOH, versus more maintenance.

Anyone out there with surge hydraulics and using tow haul for braking? Are you seeing excessive brake wear or heating of the disks/drums (We have disks)?

Even though I would like to have EOH, I am not sure it's worth it from a cost perspective.

Your thoughts????
 
Hi Steve-I'm not sure this qualifies as "thoughts", probably more like "feelings".
Just from being a C-Brat junkie for so many years and reading probably each and every post, I suggest that you should get the EOH brakes.
:smiled
 
I switched to EOH, mostly because they made me feel more confident about the braking and have been very happy with the result.
 
I'd say that EOH are not needed for a 22 with good tow vehicle and a well-maintained surge braking system, combined with appropriate driving. I've been towing my 22 with surge brakes for awhile now, including plenty of mountain passes, curvy highway driving, etc. Both of my tow vehicles (3/4 ton and 1 ton van rigs) have stopped better with the trailer hooked up than without it, thanks to the tandem/disc/surge trailer brakes (not that I have ever had different brakes on the trailer).

That said, I do need to be aware of the surge brakes when coming down mountain grades. I can't just "throw on" the brakes willy-nilly, because they may not release again, which could cause them to heat up, work less well, and/or become damaged. I typically use engine braking the whole way down anyway. I will use the brakes to slow down ahead of the downgrade (when I know they will still release because I can still "power" forward), but then move to engine braking for the body of the grade.

I suppose that I go a bit slower at the tops of grades than I would/could with EOH brakes, because with those I would know I could increase my braking during the downgrade. It's okay for me because I don't feel like I need to go a whole lot faster (and I am not going down slowly enough to be a hazard - still usually a bit faster than big trucks).

Still, EOH would be a nice feature. I was actually set on getting them before I first towed, but then the shop was totally unfamiliar with them (Florida) so I decided to wait until I got to the west coast -- but by then I felt fine with the surge brakes, so I have stuck with them. So for me now I would say they are a "desire" for a good tow rig with a 22, and would certainly be appreciated, but are not a necessity. I'm sure if I had a 25 I'd want them as a baseline.

That said, one can always make a tow rig better (even bigger truck, better brakes, more redundancy, etc.), but I guess eventually most folks decide that a certain rig/features work well and safely and are a good balance. One thing I like about the 22 (vs. something bigger) is that it's just at that point (for me) where I can do a a lot with it, but can also keep it simple (have had more complicated boats in the past, and they can be fun too, but I'm enjoying this stage now).

PS: I don't have the "tow/haul" transmission (I have a beefed up 4R100), but I basically do the same thing on downgrades but just "manually."
 
here is an article
To a lot of people, the idea of using anything with the word "electric" in the water is a non-starter. But electric over hydraulic brakes on boat trailers are now an option on models built by EZ Loader, Magic Tilt, Pacific Trailers, and Loadmaster, to name just a few.

Like a purely hydraulic system, an electric over hydraulic (EOH) braking system is activated whenever the tow vehicle brakes are applied and the trailer surges forward. Unlike the older system, however, the EOH actuator is electric, so the trailer’s brakes are applied instantly, with almost no lag time.

"Electric over hydraulic brakes have the same hydraulic brake lines going to them," says EZ Loader's Rick Norman, whose company also offers electric drum brakes, "but instead of ending up on the forward end of the trailer with the familiar hydraulic actuator, they end up with a motor on the actuator that's powered by electricity from the tow vehicle. The result produces the necessary hydraulic pressure to activate the brakes." Depending on the brand you buy, an electric over hydraulic system is available for either disc or drum brakes. Like surge, there's an actuator designed for either, but be aware that 1,000 psi on an EOH brake system is used for hydraulic drum brakes while a higher 1,500 psi is used for disc brakes. Conventional surge brakes use a lower psi (400-800) but most brake lines can handle the higher pressure. And if you're leaning toward EOH, this is a question you need answered: Is the brake line burst strength strong enough for the increased pounds per square inch of brake fluid moving through the system? Federal law also requires a breakaway kit, including battery, installed on any trailer with EOH brakes so that the trailer brakes will activate in the event it becomes separated from the tow vehicle. Trailers with the standard surge brakes use a breakaway cable to do the same, should a separation occur.

Water and EOH

"You can't get the electric over hydraulic actuator wet," observes Trailering Club member Jim Favors, who has pulled his Ranger 27 tug from Washington state to Florida and back home to Michigan. "That's why the actuator is placed as far up the front of the trailer as possible. I have my wife Lisa stand outside when we back the trailer down the ramp to let me know when to stop."

This doesn't mean the actuator on an EOH system should be kept out of the rain. It's built to handle heavy weather while on the road, but manufacturers ask that it not be submerged at the boat ramp. Of course, in these days of power washes at boat ramps to remove any invasives (quagga or zebra mussels, to name two), boaters have expressed concern about using a high-pressure hose on a trailer with electric over hydraulic brakes. Since these actuators aren't designed to be submersible though the housing is weather-tight, most will tell you light rinsing is fine. As for power washing, avoiding the actuator altogether makes sense because it's not supposed to be in the water.

Brake manufacturers suggest using electric over hydraulic if the boat being pulled exceeds 3,500 pounds. This becomes all the more important when one considers that a boat that size being backed down a boat ramp with the conventional surge system is using only the tow vehicle brakes. Most of the time, it's not an issue, but as the boat gets heavier, more strain is put on the tow vehicle brakes. EOH uses both tow vehicle and trailer brakes when the boat is backed onto the ramp.

the rest at
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/traileri ... brakes.asp

maybe this will help
 
I recently installed EoH on my EZLoader trailer and can affirm that the improvement in braking response is significant. I like, for example, that my brakes are applied backing down the ramp and that I can lightly touch the brakes in traffic and feel the trailer respond instantly.

But is it required? Clearly not as lots of people tow with surge brakes. Is EoH safer on trailers weighing several thousand pounds? No doubt it is but whether the extra margin of safety over surge brakes is important is a personal decision.

From a strictly financial standpoint, lots of these safety related things have a bad ROI (like zero) unless you need them. It's just about your tolerance for risk.
 
When I got the "new" trailer, it had no brakes on it. I have been towing this C Dory on a single axle trailer with surge disc brakes, and they were effective, but I know that the boat was back there, when stopping. I would question the "stopping better than vehicle alone"--that depends on a lot of factors. There is always a slight delay when the trailer brakes apply.

I use engine compression-both on the diesel truck, the RV (which has a transmission retarder and an exhaust brake) I only touch the service brakes when coming to a complete stop, and don't use the service brake often on a steep down grade. But these do set up the surge brakes for potential over heating. I did have this happen in Idaho a couple of years ago with the 25. Normally I check the hub and disc temps after a long down grade, but didn't because there was no easy place to pull over. I fried a bearing set doing this. So this put me on the path of E/H for the "new brakes" even on the C Dory 22.

As for speed for starting down steep grades. There is a manta in the RV world, don't start downhill any faster than you you were able to pull up to the top. Many times this may be 35 mph. This gives you a lot of cushion, and avoids over heating any brakes. Many times you will see signs for "trucks" 35 mph down grade speed limit on long grades.

So, now I have Electric over hydraulic on the 22 trailer. It was a few hundred dollars more than the surge, but I believe worth it.
 
I towed a 22' sailboat for years, even down in Mexico, without brakes. So any trailer brakes are just wonderful, whatever the actuation.

For surge brakes, the actuator uses force from the trailer to apply the brakes. When one is slowing down the force comes from the trailer inertia (force = mass X acceleration). When you're going downhill, the force comes from the weight of the trailer (weight * sine of the downhill angle). The former is what you want, the latter is good in that it slows down the trailer, though it can be hard on the brakes. And, of course, when you back up the trailer the force against the surge actuator is coming from the truck, and you don't want that so a back-up lock out is provided. All of this is independent of the trucks braking system/mechanics. Anyway you slow down the truck, such as shifting down or the brakes, hitting a stone wall, applies the trailer surge brakes as does going downhill and backing up.

On the other hand, an EOH uses a hydraulic pump to generate the hydraulic pressure to apply the trailer brakes. And that pump is controlled by the amount you step on the trucks brakes via a electric controller. So, you have better control over the trailer brakes and if you've got disk brakes you can (probably) apply more pressure to them. All this comes for the princely sum of $600 plus installation and a truck controller.

Now, Journey On is a 25 and on the trailer weighs between 8000 to 9000#. I got EOH and have never regretted that. However a 22 weighs about 1/2 of that and for the cost and hassle of installation, I would not spend the money. But, I wouldn't argue with anybody that has, since it gives better control of the trailer. And if you don't have a truck, but you're trying to tow it with a smaller SUV, you might want EOH. I used surge brakes for years and yes I replaced pads, shoes, etc, but everything worked well.

Your choice.

Boris
 
Hi Steve,

You have electric brakes on your Airstream, I imagine. Most travel trailers of any size have 'em. We had the stock surge brakes on our CD-25 originally - the change to electric over hydraulic was significantly better.

I am not a fan of surge brakes on any downhill stretch - engine braking on your tow vehicle will have the surge brakes engaged... all the way down the hill.

Just like having an anchor that you can be comfortable with overnight, having trailer brakes that work when you want, and don't engage when you don't want it, will make your trailering more pleasant and safer.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
We traded in the old EZLoader in Dec for a Marc Grove (Wefings)/Bob Austin clone aluminum Float-On, except with EOH brakes for the TC255. Love 'em. What really makes this package elegant, though, is the DirecLink cab brake controller (SN # 00000049, I must be an early adopter or a Beta tester). www.direclink.com
The DirecLink in cab controller just plugs into the truck's OBD port (I did it myself), identifies the ECM, shakes hands, and displays a green "OK" on the display to show they are playing nicely together (a red 'NC' if the trailer is not connected). Now the controller knows when the truck is backing uphill, or in engine braking mode going downhill, and the trailer brakes stay off. You have an option to have the trailer brakes stay on (adjustable) when stopped at a red light, or on the ramp. All braking is proportional to pedal pressure, not full-on or full-off feeling like surge brakes. They release immediately, not just when the truck starts to pull on them. When a regular stop becomes a panic stop, or the truck's ABS brake mode is activated, the trailer brakes are told instantly what to do. You can activate trailer brakes only and proportionally with the display trigger when going down steep hills. Unlike any other controller, this one sounds an alarm and gives a DIGITAL readout of your transmission oil temp if high (GM and Ford only). How cool is that? Even my dashboard tranny oil temp gauge doesn't do that.
Surge brakes are adequate for this and most parts of the country. However, I contend (and agree with Sunbeam) that if you're dragging over 8- 10,000 pounds (mine is 11,500 in cruise mode and over 18,000# total rig) you need every extra safety margin you can afford. The EOH option was only an extra 1 to 1.5 Boat Units (I forget) on this trailer. The EOH/DirecLink combination is a high-tech, elegant and automated solution that makes my trailering smoother, less stressful and it's a bargain. I'd never go back to those clunky, jerky, beastly, primitive, stupid, inertia-dependent knuckle-dragging Neanderthal foul-smelling surge brakes (although Sunbeam seems to like his OK for a 22). Best thing since installing the backup camera and turn signal activated mirror-mounted side blind spot cameras. (The Blonde will let me buy almost any boating boy toy I want, as long as I can convince her it's safety related. Maybe that'll work with your Blonde, too).
Once purchased, I don't anticipate any difference in maintenance, other than a cheap rechargeable battery on EOH required as Brent posted for breakaway activation. On my GMC 2500HD diesel (Allison commercial transmission and 20k Park prawl), Tow/Haul mode lowers the RPM for upshifts and locks out overdrive; engine braking going down hills never seemed to activate my trailer surge brakes around here, but I might not know until they overheated enough to set off the valve stem mounted tire pressure/temp alarms. More of an issue in real Western mountains and our post-retirement life.
Have fun researching! Dr. Bob has forgotten more than I'll ever learn about this stuff, I'd listen to him!
Cheers!
John
 
Just towed first time with EOH,last trailer had surge breaks they were good with 19ft Montauk. Really like this trailer,I almost forget the boat is back there.
 
thataway":20oycfhr said:
I would question the "stopping better than vehicle alone"--that depends on a lot of factors. There is always a slight delay when the trailer brakes apply.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll take that back. It feels that way to me (tandem trailer, all four wheels disc-braked), but I have done no scientific experiments, and don't want to lead anyone astray. I'm sure you have much more towing experience than I have. Aside from a few rafting trailers (no brakes), and couple of brief cross-country jaunts with travel trailers, I only have experience towing the C-Dory, and that only with two different tow vehicles. I shouldn't have spoken categorically (if it sounded like I was).
 
Sunbeam,
You're really not going to take the bait on 'foul-smelling'? I'm so disappointed! You are one tough fish to 'catch'. Appreciate your posts and experience.
Keep swimming!
Cheers!
John
 
gulfcoast john":3opp6rkt said:
Sunbeam,
You're really not going to take the bait on 'foul-smelling'? I'm so disappointed!
Click to expand...

Well, that was just so over-the-top that there was no need :mrgreen:

I'm sure I would like EOH - they sound fantastic - and if I ever decide an upgrade is in order, that's the way I'd go. But my surge brakes have been pretty well-mannered, so for now they stay.

Side topic: I'm so annoyed. I found a particular trailer tire I wanted (mine are three years old, so from what I read it's time for new ones) and called to see what the date code would be on the ones they had in stock. They were over a year old! However a new batch was coming in.... I called back after they'd been unpacked and... same date! Called another place that had them and theirs were even older. I mean, if I'm replacing them every three years that's like 35% gone before I even get started. Sheez.

The second place advised that they get a new batch in every week (using the term "new" loosely here, obviously), so I'm going to try back a few times and see if I have any luck. Reason I want these specific tires is that I have 13" wheels on my trailer, and with the typical Load Range C tires, I'm not over their rating, but closer than I would like. This one particular tire I seek is a Load Range D 13" tire.

(I looked into changing to 14" rims, but it's more complicated than that and much of the trailer/suspension would have to be replaced too. I haven't had any trouble with the Load Range C tires, and the whole rig trailers quite nicely, but I still want those Load Range D tires!

Okay, that's the side rant over :D
 
I recently bought a used 16 cruiser with trailer, and it has electric brakes (2003)
Do I really need the brakes on a 16 foot boat?
Two options
1 have them rebuilt (brakes)
2 remove internal parts (no brakes)
What do you guys think that tow 16's ?
 
For those of you who do your own maintenance. I would recommend changing your brake fluid every two or three years. Brake fluid absorbs moisture and moisture can cause corrosion internally in your calipers. E.O.H. brakes are a lot easier to bleed than dealing with the surge brake's actuator. Another plus is that your trailer brakes actually work backing up. Like when you go down a steep slippery ramp. It's pretty much a given that the same vehicle and trailer equipped with E.O.H. will out stop the same setup with surge brakes. So you have to ask yourself is smart to travel with no brakes? Should some yo yo pull a boneheaded move I would rather have the best possible brakes. The choice is yours. Would you like to save some money and then possibly hurt someone else or your family? For me I want the better braking system. If the unthinkable occurs I at least feel I have done everything the best way to avoid any calamities. If you are just doing local from your house to the closest ramp that's one thing. But if you travel further the idea of the best braking system becomes a much better idea. IMHO. If you are trying to save money buying a boat was a really a bad idea.
D.D.
 
JayMac, I have pure electric brakes on my CD-22, and have ran all electric (as opposed to Electric over Hydraulic), on past boat trailers including a 21' pontoon and Searay 268 Sundancer. There are many naysayers here about electric, and I'll be right up front stating I'm a fresh water boater. (But there are a few salt water guys that use them as well.) I doubt you need any brakes on a 16' boat trailer, unless it's a fairly heavy boat. But electric brakes are pretty inexpensive. Unless the drums are shot, you should be able to replace the entire brake assembly on a single axle for well under $100. (I believe they run about $25 a side.) That's unbolting the brake backing plate and all, and replacing with new. Not much mechanical ability needed. :-) (Undo 4 bolts/nuts, cut wires remove, replace, splice wires. You do need to know how to "adjust" the brakes then, which just involves turning the star wheel until the drums won't turn, and backing off one turn.) If you already have your trailer and tow vehicle set up for electric brakes, if it were me, I'd replace the brake assembly. Otherwise, if you want to go brakeless, shouldn't be that hard to unbolt the brake backing plate and remove. Colby
 
As usual, here is a salt water comment on electric brakes, just so one understands how they work and the potential impact of salt corrosion. Remember, brakes on a boat trailer are important for stability, stopping and all around good feeling. They may be good for fresh water, but not for salt water.

First, the electric brakes I'm familiar with have one long brake shoe, U-shaped. This shoe is forced into the drum by a electro-magnet, which rubs against the shoe when energized by the electric controller in the tow vehicle. So it depends on an electrical circuit, including the magnet, and good friction against the brakes shoe. It works well in our travel trailer., even after hauling it through streams, flooded roads, etc. So I can only assume that it works well after being immersed in fresh water.

So now, lets talk about salt water. First, ColbySmith talks about splicing wires. Does anybody remember incandescent bulbs in trailer lights? And how hard they were to keep running, until you removed them so they didn't get immersed in salt water? Think of the electrical connections inside your brake drums and how you would seal them. Next, when I look at the surface of the electro-magnets on the brakes (every 2 years or so,) they have a shiny surface where they rub on the brake shoe. I compare that to the disk surface on brakes that have been immersed in salt water and corroded. Very low friction, even when I flush the disks after each use.

So my conclusion is that they may work well in Wisconsin, but not for salt water. It would be nice to get a salt water users opinion. I can only avoid them.

Boris
 
For a picture of what Boris is talking about:

DSCF0004.jpg

This is a photo of my brakes after 3 seasons (fresh water use). The electro magnet is the rectangular shaped thing center bottom. As Boris stated, it drags against the drum and when energy is applied (via the tow vehicle brake controller) magnetizes and begins to pull harder to the turning drum, which in turn pulls the expander mechanism on the right shoe, which also extends the left shoe. (Much like a parking brake on vehicle drum brakes.) Most electric brake magnets are encased in epoxy where the wires enter the windings inside. If you already have drum brakes, you should not notice any more corrosion/rust than what you are already experiencing. EOH (electric over hydraulic) has the advantage of using the hydraulic system brakes which means you can go disc if you want. However, you have the electric pump to deal with also. I've read where others have experienced problems with those pumps when they get soaked, and the hydraulics still needs to be maintained as well. I have toyed with the idea myself of going to EOH. But at $25/wheel to stick with Electric, which is pretty simplistic and has worked well for me, I guess I'm going to continue suggesting electric as a viable option when folks ask. :roll: JayMac, if you decide to just dump brakes all together, you would simply cut the wires on the back of the brake backing plate, then pull the 4 nuts off the bolts holding that brake assembly on to the trailer axle. You can then place the hub/drum back on the spindle, or replace that with a non-drum hub. I really don't think a 16' boat would justify the cost for EOH brakes. (I believe the pumps alone run $700 and up.) I pulled my boat with these brakes over the Mountains around Yellowstone NP last summer, with my Toyota Highlander, and plenty of stopping power from the trailer brakes. JMHO!
 
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