Down East Circle Cruise?

T

tparrent

New member
I've been doing some armchair cruising. Haven't run aground yet, fuel usage has been quite small, I have a well equipped galley and even a fireplace. None of those conditions will hold when I get off of Navionics and onto my boat but that's where the adventure is!

I've been pondering where to go on an epic cruise. The Great Loop would seem a logical choice except that I'm not actually interested in large swaths of it. The ICW seems like a chore and the western part of the loop down the Mississippi and through KY and TN doesn't toot my horn. Florida has maybe four places that I find interesting.

I'm a northern guy even though I live in the south. Next summer will be spent in either Michigan or Vermont and there's some great cruising in both places but, unless I circumnavigate Lake Superior, the cruises are nice but not epic.

So I started looking Nova Scotia because, why not? I could go from Burlington VT to Montreal, out he St Laurence, around Nova Scotia, along the cast of Maine, down to New York City and back up to Burlington. This is a modified version of a route some have called the Down East Circle and it does indeed sound epic.

The question is: is the TomCat the right boat? It seems right to me for three reasons: 1) speed when I need it 2) shallow draft 3) it happens to be the boat I own.

The most challenging part of the cruise (on paper) would be coming around Nova Scotia and across the Bay of Fundy. With the right weather and the TomCat speed, it seems eminently doable.

All of you PNW cruisers could probably add some insight here. I know that most of the Inside Passage is not exposed to wide open ocean but I know there are also plenty of gnarly places with strong currents and gusty winds.

I think the most important resources would be time and the patience to use it. Waiting out fog and wind would be key to making the trip enjoyable and safe.

Before casting off lines for the cruise, I should probably take the TomCat out for a longer shakedown voyage than the two trips to the fuel dock I've made so far. Not to worry as I have taken next week off from work and plan to spend three or four days aboard going ... somewhere.
 
Tom,
Always fun to plan! Epic is whatever you make of it. How long would you have? Are you single handling it?

We’ll do the Best of the Loop three times while never completing the ‘boring’ sections.

I'm always the first in line to claim that the TC 255 is a great boat. However, even if your boat can do 47 miles per hour in calm water, when true seas reach 3 feet, by definition every 100th wave could be 6 ft and you do not want to hit a six foot high wall of water at 47 miles per hour even in a Tomcat. You have to throttle back maybe to displacement speeds...or better yet, stay in port. Small craft advisory conditions usually begin with winds at about 20 knots or 22 miles per hour which often generates 2+ to 3 foot Seas depending on fetch, depth and other factors. These conditions are fairly common most everywhere and are uncomfortable and no fun even in much larger boats. Last year in Key West a 43 ft, 2 million dollar Nordhavn docked next to us after they fought small craft conditions for 100 miles. They were miserable, sore, exhausted, and seasick, and ‘never again’. Often that area is smooth, but they aren’t retired. You are right that the most important resources would be time and the patience to use it. But if you have to be back home by Tuesday, you’re more likely to succumb to what aircraft accident investigation boards refer to as ‘get-home-itis’. Bottom line, the TC255’s speed is not usable in seas much above 2 feet or sustained winds over 20MPH as a practical matter. The boat won’t break, but your neck and your femurs will. We’d advise a cruise that is not subject to so much open ocean water for the first time.

Our plans for a PNW/BC Inside passage cruise were dashed this year, and per PM with Harvey, he thinks Canada is unlikely to open up by Aug 2021 either. We think it would be a shame to be that close and miss out on Canada.

There were more marinas with launch ramps and rig storage on the NY side of Lake Champlain than Burlington. (You’d have to get that holding tank Y-diverter valve figured out and remove the valve-to- overboard discharge hose section). To get to Montreal (great city) you’d have to take the Richelieu river and canal all the way up to Sorel, then fight the St Lawrence current back down to Montreal. We got our air draft down to just under the required 8 feet to take the LaChine Canal through Montreal, but then you’d have to turn around and go back through it, since the rapids at Montreal are not navigable and you want to avoid the Seaway commercial locks at all costs (single handed boats were not permitted). You could wait days, ships have priority.

A much more protected loop with much of the same territory but no Atlantic exposure is the 800-1000 mile Triangle Loop, which we did in 2019. It was a blast! Wait until summer 2022 or when Canada re-opens.

Put in and store rig at Pirate’s Cove Marina on the Erie Canal, on-site owner Paul White. Take the Oswego Canal (11 locks), cool fort and town there. Cross Lake Ontario in a weather window (we made 30 MPH while calmer than most summer days here) but it was nasty the day prior. Explore the American side of the 10,000 Islands at least up to Alexandria Bay and Boldt Castle for a week. Put up your Canadian and yellow Quarantine flag, cross over and dock and clear customs by phone at Kingston. The Rideua river and canal take you up to Ottawa, then 7 step locks down to the Ottawa river to the St Lawrence and into the Lachine canal (8 ft air draft) through Montreal while bypassing the Seaway commercial locks. Go with the St L current up to Sorel to hang a right into the Richelieu river and canal back down to the US border and check in near Rouses Point, which leads into the north end of Lake Champlain. After a few weeks there, the Chambly canal (and more locks) lead back to Waterford on the Hudson, where you re-enter the Erie Canal system. Oneida Lake required a weather day. Then back to Pirate’s Cove. About 150 locks, so get that cockpit cleat mounted.

The only big waters on this cruise are Lake Ontario, parts of the St L seaway, Lake Champlain (which you know) and Lake Oneida, ALL of which are much less likely to keep you in port for a week or two compared to what the Atlantic can do to your plans!

Option 2: Mini Dismal Swamp Loop
Norfolk to Elizabeth river, Deep creek to Dismal Swamp canal (slow speed) to Pasquotank R, North R, Coinjock, N Landing R back to Eliz R and Norfolk. Cool marinas there but lots of intense traffic. No exposure to big seas.

Option 3: Chesapeake Bay
Spend 3-6 months exploring there. Rough water possible (we had 3 days of Gale Warnings and 2 of SCA out of five weeks in June 2018).

Option 4: Lake Michigan or Superior (esp Isle Royale National Park)
Haven’t been (although Georgian Bay portion of Lake Huron is fabulous it’s in Canada). On our wish list. I hope Colby or others with experience there will sing out! Sometimes I suspect they want to keep it secret amongst themselves. All they ever say is that in August it’s cold. Colby posted a pic of his display showing 38 degree water in July.

Keep planning! Take some easier cruises and get hours behind the wheel of your own craft before challenging yourself too much. You and your boat will both be happier that way.

Hope this is helpful!
PS when others make a post like this I print it and put it in a 'pocket cruise' folder for future reference.
John
 
ption 4: Lake Michigan or Superior (esp Isle Royale National Park)
Haven’t been (although Georgian Bay portion of Lake Huron is fabulous it’s in Canada). On our wish list. I hope Colby or others with experience there will sing out! Sometimes I suspect they want to keep it secret amongst themselves. All they ever say is that in August it’s cold. Colby posted a pic of his display showing 38 degree water in July.
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Closer to home, the water of Green Bay and Lake Michigan surrounding Wisconsin's Door County (The peninsula of Wisconsin sticking out between Green Bay and Lake Michigan), offers some nice cruising. All the way up and under the Mighty Mac (bridge) to Mackinaw Island. Then as we first discovered for our selves last summer, the Inside Water way of Michigan and the area across from Mackinac Island, the Les Cheneaux Islands, are really fun places to explore. On up in Lake Superior you have Isle Royal and also the Apostle Islands. More places that are fun to explore. Of course any of these areas in the Great Lakes require a watchful eye on the weather. It doesn't take much of a squall to build 4+ foot short spaced waves. But once you are inside protected waters (smaller coves and channels) you can find protection from the wind. Lake Superior is colder than Lake Michigan. And Isle Royale redefines what remote means. If you want to get away from any cell signals or civilization, Isle Royale beckons. And the fishing there is good. Very good. Even I can catch Lake Trout in those waters. Isle Royale and the Apostles are also great places to go to stay isolated from COVID. Michigan's Inland waterway has enuf scenery to stay isolated, but yet it was hard not being able to visit some of the recommended restaurants. We'd still like to do the Erie Canal sometime, but feeling that is as much about walking thru and visiting the little towns along the way, probably another year off. Going farther west, Lake Powell is great for mountain and canyon scenery, and quite easy to stay isolated there as well. You could easily spend a few weeks there! Just some of my own experience. BTW, I've also done parts of the North Channel. While several of the locales were beautiful, the weather we ended up experiencing in the open water involving 6-7' seas and green water coming over the bow, kind of took away our enjoyment level. We left that cruise early and spent a few days at Mackinaw. Two summers ago, I did parts of the Inside Passage of Alaska. To me, that was a climax of my bucket list! Colby
 
So I started looking Nova Scotia because, why not? I could go from Burlington VT to Montreal, out he St Laurence, around Nova Scotia, along the cast of Maine, down to New York City and back up to Burlington. This is a modified version of a route some have called the Down East Circle and it does indeed sound epic.

The question is: is the TomCat the right boat? It seems right to me for three reasons: 1) speed when I need it 2) shallow draft 3) it happens to be the boat I own.

The most challenging part of the cruise (on paper) would be coming around Nova Scotia and across the Bay of Fundy. With the right weather and the TomCat speed, it seems eminently doable.
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I think you are selling a lot of potential cruises short. We have done The Atlantic ICW, and coast to Maine Canadian Border. (Key West--actually Long Beach CA--starting point). The ICW has many very interesting scenes and towns. It, like all of the "Great Loop" type of voyages, need to be done slowly and savored. It is the towns and people which make these trips...not a sprint across the water.

I have done the trip from Washington to SE AK (Icy Straits furthest NorthWest) and back 4 times in our Cal 46, and then a 5th trips, involving segments of the trip in C Dory 25. You will have more currents and passes on the trip to SE AK, than on the Down East Loop. We rarely had days when we could not run. The same was true for the East coast. The currents on St. Lawrence Waterway is usually no more than 2 to 3 knots. Some tidal currents/ counter Currents, may be more. I would say that perhaps you would have a risk of more fog on The Atlantic Coast. We spent most of a summer in the New York to Maine part of the Coast. Some real "pea soup" fog days. That was before GPS, and we ran under radar alone, plus DR.

Be sure that you have the fuel management worked out. I would go thru the Canal Canso, rather than around NS. If you do it, take enough time to really enjoy the scenery and people.

My only concern is if you get into really heavy weather--so be careful with high winds. Wind against current can be nasty on the TC. We would run up Perdido Bay (about 12 miles fetch, against 35 knot winds, and seas 2 1/2 feet or so. Cranked up to 35knots to get more air compression. But I have seen times when it was most 3 footers, and at the wrong period, where there was too much slamming to be comfortable. So always have a "bail out" locations to anchor it out.

Now as to John's inflated 2 million dollar Nordhavn 43--I have some swamp land if you are interested.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

Any long distance cruise will occur in 2022 or 2023 when I am fully retired without time constraints. For 2021 I plan to be shore based in Burlington while working remotely and taking several one or two week cruises to include the Richelieu and Erie canals. I'll probably also spend a couple weeks in New York City at Liberty Landing marina (where I lived aboard for a few months awhile back) and working at our home offices in NYC.

Many of the other places mentioned are on my must do list. Tops are Trent Severn, Ottawa, Isle Royale and Apostle Islands, Les Cheneaux, Rainy Lake/Lake of the Woods, Upper Mississippi/St. Croix. I am familiar with many of these places as I lived and sailed in Chicago and Michigan for decades.

Going slow and discovering places is great. Navigating marker to marker all day long has very little appeal to me which is why the ICW is not as interesting for me as more open water. I've heard lots of great things about Lake Powell - but it holds no interest whatsoever for me. Different strokes. PNW would be great (I've chartered there) but the upper midwest and eastern Canada are higher on my list.

The real question about the Down East route is how the boat handles in marginal conditions (because I'd stay away from open water in anything worse than marginal) and, importantly, if it will simply be too confining if I find myself laid up for a week waiting on weather. I've sailed in wicked conditions that I probably shouldn't have been out in and I enjoyed every minute of it but I know from my CD 22 experience that conditions that were sporting in a 30 foot sailboat would be extremely uncomfortable in a C Dory.

First up is local waters this coming week. The plan is to explore the Pamlico and perhaps go up the Alligator River. All subject to change on a whim.
 
Tom: My TomCat is in Wanchese,NC.We did a week long Carolina Loop in October. Up the Dismal Swamp Canal, back down the VA Cut thru Coinjock, down the Alligator River to Bellehaven, across the Pamlico to Ocracoke, then back home. Lots of variety and never far from protection if it blows.
 
First thing up. I don't know the cruising areas you are talking, so will pass on recomendations referring to geographical areas. The advice to get to know your boat, and to not be bound to time frame cruising for "open ocean" crossings is spot on. After owning my boat for 8 years, I retired, (ah, math is not my strong suite, so I might be off by a year or two :lol:

The summer after I retired I did my epic trip, 100 days on the boat, primarily anchoring, not a planned distance trip, so didn't cover huge miles, but spent the time covering all the inlets in the Broughtons, and around the north end of Vancouver Island. I took all my food and everything I needed for the 100 days. Stopped once at my truck and picked up my second dose of groceries, and cleaned the bottom. I had stopped a few times for laundry and fuel. Most days I was anchored for the day before 0800. out of the first 48 days, I had rain some or all of 40 days. (Saw many pairs of little animals lined up on the shorelines, waiting for a boat ride. :wink: )

Epic does not have to be grand miles, but a grand time. Plan like crazy but travel with smarts.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

6_June_2017.thumb.jpg
 
100 days in the Broughtons certainly sounds epic in many ways.

Being at anchor most days so early, how did you spend your time? Hiking, fishing, reading, contemplating life's mysteries?
 
Most days I was anchored for the day before 0800
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That sure caught my eye. PNW days for us were planed around the tides and currents. The C Dory we could do as much as 3 passes a day; The Cal 46 one pass a day...
 
Thanks! I've ordered it.

I'm always of two minds when reading books about adventures that I plan on taking. It's good to know some facts but reducing the unknowns takes away some of the adventure.

Having read five or six Great Loop books did help me decide that doing the whole loop is not my type of adventure so that's good.
 
Although I try and find as many history and boating books as possible about various places (which often helps find obscure facts and places), the reality and experience of the cruise is far different than the "picture" given in a book. Most "loopers" do a "cocktail" cruise--going from Marina to Marina, pretty much seeing the same folks who travel at the same speed. They don't explore or go to out of the way places. Salty the 22 which has done I believe 5 Great Loops in the 22, has really explored the side channels, and towns, even though he does a fairly fast loop pace.

I am sure you have looked at the guides on Nova Scotia, and the Down East Cruise. There is a web site giving all of the charts, and guide books used. It would be a great trip, but should take at least several l months to really enjoy.
 
And thank goodness for the difference! I know some folks really enjoy the cocktail cruising style and the community of fellow travelers. I'm more of a sit in the middle of the lake and listen to loons kind of guy.

For side trips, I am looking forward to biking which, after boating, is my favorite form of transportation. I'll be taking a hard look at the boat this week to see how I am going to easily carry a full size bike. A folding bike would not work for the long rides I hope to take.
 
The bike issue was present for us when we made our cruise Calif. to Europe and back. We had some high end small folding bikes--and I would agree, they did not cut it. There are some good folding bikes--and you may already know about them. The other option is to remove wheels, and store side by side in a Sunbrella or similar pouch, and then a pouch for the frame, with handle bars turned sideways as part of the set up. This keeps the bike protected and the other objects in the boat protected from the bike.

Montague folding bikes for boating are ones to consider. They are quality, and range in price, from the $700 to $2500.

Helix might be another consideration.

I would assume that you want a hybrid type rather than a road or pure off road bike. Our experience is that some areas may involve trails which a road bike will not do well on, yet not pure mountain bike...but it has been a long time since we have been able to ride due to back issues.....

There are available now, some incredibly cheap folding full size bikes....[/url]
 
Tom, what you propose sounds wonderful. And you have the right boat. I'm a strong proponent of trailerable boats because one can take them to different places, see different things.

If you have limited time, the Nova Scotia trip sounds like a lot of fun. I've thought of it but I'm on the west coast.

I think you may have ignored some truly wonderful trips from North Carolina that can be made in a short time. One is the Eire Canal, a trip that takes one through history while having a great cruising experience. Friendliest people in the world. Took us 3 weeks in our sail boat, motoring. Another is near you; one of the great cruising grounds of North America: the Chesapeake Bay. Go up there in the spring or fall. Of course, the other is the Pacific North West.

Finally, the ICW. We did 1/2 of the Great Loop, through Florida, the Bahamas, up through the ICW to the Chesapeake and the Great Lakes via the Eire Cenal. I've often lamented the fact the the East Coast is so far from the West Coast. I'd love to have an easy several weeks to spend on the ICW. History, adventure, beauty and the weekend warriors. Annapolis, Savanna, St Augustine and the swamps of Georgia.

If you're into doing some armchair cruising, here's our adventures. First, with our sailboat and then with a (trailerable) C-Dory 25. Cruising America. The main story is how one can cruise in a 25' boat, but the stories of our trips as well as the East Coast in a sailboat with a 6' draft are there also.

Boris
 
Tom,

Re your search for a seriously capable full size folding bike…
We have heavily used a pair of Montague Paratrooper folders for the past 25 years. They are the same bikes that the Marine paratroopers jump out of planes with one tied to their back, but theirs have more titanium and less aluminum (I wish I could buy one).

We sometimes bike the saltwater Gulf beaches at low tide and just hose ‘em off and spray on some Boeing Shield. We only use 7 of the 21 gears and converted the mountain tires to trail tires. Last major maintenance was 7 years ago with new rubber, SS chains and tune ups. We’ve had lots of bikes, but they NEVER before lasted 25 years. (Our tastes are simple...we like The Best).

It’s an easy 30-60 seconds total folding operation. They COULD be stashed folded in canvas and secured to the bow rails to conserve cockpit space, but we haven’t done that. We stash them in the truck when boating. Stashing a single one in the cockpit would be easy when cruising. Mock up the web site folded dimensions in cardboard to try it (and now a rubber drive belt? How cool is that for saltwater)? Today we biked 20 miles on base. Our bikes are scratched but indestructible. The pro-rated cost per year over 25 years (to date, and these bikes, like us, hopefully still have a lot of life left)...a bargain.

Agree with Bob that many if not most bike trails near waterways would be best done with ‘trail’ bikes, not “mountain” bikes. Most of the canal old mule trails that run alongside the Trent-Severn and Erie and Canadian canals are often hardpack gravel or dirt rather than asphalt. Some Looper crews will trade places driving the boat and biking for exercise while in sight of each other.

Don’t give up on a quality full size folder until you research a Montague. If a Marine can parachute out of a plane with one, assemble it under fire in the dark and scramble with a bunch of other heavy gear, perhaps it will meet your needs, too!

Happy Shopping!
John
 
You could enter the Bras d'Or Lake at the north end of Cape Breton and exit the lake at the south end. Or do what Bob suggested the Canso Canal using Prince Edward Island for protection from large seas.

Dave
 
I'd forgotten about the Paratrooper. Looked at it briefly when I was living in an apartment in New York but ended up getting a regular bike instead (bikes are perfectly acceptable as furniture in NYC apartments).

Price doesn't look too bad either. Your recommendation for rideability is a real plus.

Thanks!
 
Bras d'Or is definitely on the list.

I've Google Earthed the whole area and there are certainly some passages without good bailout options in the wrong wind conditions. Just need to keep a real close eye on the weather and look windows to get through those areas in a hurry on a calm, clear day.

If it was all easy, it wouldn't be much of an adventure!
 
tparrent said:
Bras d'Or is definitely on the list.

Growing up near the birthplace of Alexander Graham Bell we learned about this brackish sea in an island. It was where many of his inventions were tested. Many "firsts" were recorded here as well as many world records broken both in the air and on the water. His hydrofoil set a world speed record of over 70mph in 1919.

Enjoy the heritage of this beautiful area.

Regards,

Rob
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