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dock lumber
- Thread starter jimmydj
- Start date
marvin4239
New member
Below water you need treatment to 2.5 saturation. A typical 4x4 you buy from home depot is treated to .40 saturation and is approved for ground contact. Other deminsional lumber 2x4's 2x6's etc are treated to .25 saturation. When I built my dock I used 2.5 on everything below water and regular .25 saturation for the decking and it's held up just as well as my neighbors who used 2.5 for the decking. I did build a ladder out of .25 that was partly under water and the worms ate it in less than a year. I think the area you are in has a lot to do with it I'm in Florida. I'm referring to CCA treated lumber which I think has been replaced by another type of treatment.
Marvin wrote:
"I'm referring to CCA treated lumber which I think has been replaced by another type of treatment."
Here's some discussion of the old and new types of pressure treated lumber:
New types of pressure-treated lumber
A NEW RECIPE FOR WOOD
Safer formulations for pressure-treated lumber make it a great choice for decks and landscaping
By Lou Manfredini
Everyone is familiar with pressure-treated lumber. It’s that greenish wood that doesn’t rot. It’s used to build outdoor decks, play sets for your kids, and landscaping retaining walls. What people are less familiar with are the chemicals that give the wood it’s durability--in particular, the fact that it is infused with arsenic. During the treating process, the arsenic becomes chemically locked to the wood fibers (along with copper and chromium). But tiny amounts can be transferred to your skin when you touch it, especially when it’s fresh. Lately there has been a lot of mis-information on what you need to be concerned with when it comes to treated lumber. Removing this product from your home is not necessary!
To date no one has documented any long-term health risks associated with exposure to the chemicals in treated lumber. That being said the manufacturers of the formula known as CCA, or copper chromated arsenate, have decided to play it safe. By the end of next year, the chemical manufacturers announced recently in connection with the Environmental Protection Agency, the arsenic-containing formula will be shelved. So where does this leave you the homeowner?
Fortunately, with plenty of better pressure-treated alternatives to choose from. These have the same familiar greenish tinge as the original, and the same resistance to rot and decay, as well as the same lifetime warranty. The only difference is that they are 100 percent free of arsenic as well as chromium (another EPA-regulated toxin), which should give you greater peace of mind as you install pressure-treated wood around your home.
The most popular alternative is ACQ, which stands for alkaline copper quaternary. This has been for available for several years and has been used in Europe—where, interestingly, the arsenic—containing CCA has been banned for more than a decade. Another is copper azole, which has been more recently concocted and is equally effective. One caution: Both ACQ and copper azole are corrosive to bolts and nails used to fasten the wood. To prevent this, the manufacturers recommend using hot-dipped galvanized steel fasteners or more expensive stainless steel ones. Anything less durable could quickly corrode, resulting in the collapse of whatever has been built.
As always, change comes at a cost. You can expect to pay about 15 to 20 percent more for the lumber treated with the new ACQ and copper azole. If you build a 10 by 10 foot deck, for instance, that might translate into an additional $100 for the new lumber. I think it’s worth it, especially when it comes time to sell your home and you can brag about your state-of-the-art building materials. If your local lumberyard does not yet stock the new alternatives, have them order the wood for you, which is something they will do readily.
What should you do if you’ve already have a deck or outdoor play set built with the old CCA-treated wood? Relax. The EPA says they have found no reason to advise ripping it out, although you may want to consider sealing it with a penetrating oil-based preservative. This will not only seal in any arsenic that may leach out, but will also help extend the life of the wood. In fact, whatever wood you use outdoors, I recommend preserving it.
With the right care, pressure-treated wood—no matter what formula it’s made from—should last a long, long time.
---
This article originally appeared in USA Weekend magazine.
I will add that a splinter in your finger or butt of the old arsenic/copper/chromium type burns and irritates you like crazy. I've had a few of both from docks while getting into and out of sailboats.
Joe. :teeth :thup
"I'm referring to CCA treated lumber which I think has been replaced by another type of treatment."
Here's some discussion of the old and new types of pressure treated lumber:
New types of pressure-treated lumber
A NEW RECIPE FOR WOOD
Safer formulations for pressure-treated lumber make it a great choice for decks and landscaping
By Lou Manfredini
Everyone is familiar with pressure-treated lumber. It’s that greenish wood that doesn’t rot. It’s used to build outdoor decks, play sets for your kids, and landscaping retaining walls. What people are less familiar with are the chemicals that give the wood it’s durability--in particular, the fact that it is infused with arsenic. During the treating process, the arsenic becomes chemically locked to the wood fibers (along with copper and chromium). But tiny amounts can be transferred to your skin when you touch it, especially when it’s fresh. Lately there has been a lot of mis-information on what you need to be concerned with when it comes to treated lumber. Removing this product from your home is not necessary!
To date no one has documented any long-term health risks associated with exposure to the chemicals in treated lumber. That being said the manufacturers of the formula known as CCA, or copper chromated arsenate, have decided to play it safe. By the end of next year, the chemical manufacturers announced recently in connection with the Environmental Protection Agency, the arsenic-containing formula will be shelved. So where does this leave you the homeowner?
Fortunately, with plenty of better pressure-treated alternatives to choose from. These have the same familiar greenish tinge as the original, and the same resistance to rot and decay, as well as the same lifetime warranty. The only difference is that they are 100 percent free of arsenic as well as chromium (another EPA-regulated toxin), which should give you greater peace of mind as you install pressure-treated wood around your home.
The most popular alternative is ACQ, which stands for alkaline copper quaternary. This has been for available for several years and has been used in Europe—where, interestingly, the arsenic—containing CCA has been banned for more than a decade. Another is copper azole, which has been more recently concocted and is equally effective. One caution: Both ACQ and copper azole are corrosive to bolts and nails used to fasten the wood. To prevent this, the manufacturers recommend using hot-dipped galvanized steel fasteners or more expensive stainless steel ones. Anything less durable could quickly corrode, resulting in the collapse of whatever has been built.
As always, change comes at a cost. You can expect to pay about 15 to 20 percent more for the lumber treated with the new ACQ and copper azole. If you build a 10 by 10 foot deck, for instance, that might translate into an additional $100 for the new lumber. I think it’s worth it, especially when it comes time to sell your home and you can brag about your state-of-the-art building materials. If your local lumberyard does not yet stock the new alternatives, have them order the wood for you, which is something they will do readily.
What should you do if you’ve already have a deck or outdoor play set built with the old CCA-treated wood? Relax. The EPA says they have found no reason to advise ripping it out, although you may want to consider sealing it with a penetrating oil-based preservative. This will not only seal in any arsenic that may leach out, but will also help extend the life of the wood. In fact, whatever wood you use outdoors, I recommend preserving it.
With the right care, pressure-treated wood—no matter what formula it’s made from—should last a long, long time.
---
This article originally appeared in USA Weekend magazine.
I will add that a splinter in your finger or butt of the old arsenic/copper/chromium type burns and irritates you like crazy. I've had a few of both from docks while getting into and out of sailboats.
Joe. :teeth :thup
marvin4239
New member
I recently read and article on using preservative on treated wood and the general concensus among dock builders was to not use it. The theory was that you can't completely seal the wood and rain water will get in to the wood and not be released due to the sealing and eventually rot the wood. In contrast non sealed pressure treated wood allows the water to evaporate out. I didn't seal mine and my neighbor did so time will tell whats right. The more I think about it I may have read that on this site. It's sort of like bottom paint once you start you have to continue sealing. I've noticed lately that a lot of Marinas are using a teak looking wood for decking that isn't preserved or pressure treated. Don't know the exact name of it but it really looks good.
Chuckpacific
New member
I would seriously consider the various composite wood products...
Chuckpacific":23t82vxa said:I would seriously consider the various composite wood products...
Around here at Shasta Lake, they're using Trex, which about half wood chips and half recycled plastics for decking on docks.
However, the Trex doesn't have the structural strength to be used as joists, stringers, and piers, so metal or treated wood are still used for those parts.
Joe. :teeth :thup
The primary treatment used (at least in the Northwest) for saltwater use is ACZA. There are different chemical saturation requirements for the product depending upon whether the product will be used immersed in saltwater or just subject to spash.
ACZA stands for Ammonicacal Copper Zinc Arsenate. It is not one of the "new" treatments, does contain Arsenates, and is pretty ugly being a blackish green color. On the other hand, it does a superior job treating the normally hard to treat doug-fir that is typically specified for building dock structures.
The typical retention levels required are .60 for salt water splash and 2.5 for immersion.
In Texas, you may be more likely to use Southern Yellow Pine for this application, in which case CCA may be the treatment of choice for marine use on this wood. I believe the required retention levels are the same.
None of these products are likely to be found at either your local box store or lumberyard, but maybe could be special ordered. If there is a strong marine presence in your area, there may be a specialty dealer that stocks the materials.
Good luck!
ACZA stands for Ammonicacal Copper Zinc Arsenate. It is not one of the "new" treatments, does contain Arsenates, and is pretty ugly being a blackish green color. On the other hand, it does a superior job treating the normally hard to treat doug-fir that is typically specified for building dock structures.
The typical retention levels required are .60 for salt water splash and 2.5 for immersion.
In Texas, you may be more likely to use Southern Yellow Pine for this application, in which case CCA may be the treatment of choice for marine use on this wood. I believe the required retention levels are the same.
None of these products are likely to be found at either your local box store or lumberyard, but maybe could be special ordered. If there is a strong marine presence in your area, there may be a specialty dealer that stocks the materials.
Good luck!
marvin4239
New member
The decking I was referring to earlier that a lot of the new marinas are using is called Cumaru Brizilian. Don't know how expensive it is but it looks just like teak and appears to be just as hard.
http://www.advantagelumber.com/cumaru_decking.htm
http://www.advantagelumber.com/cumaru_decking.htm
mailbox101
New member
The change away from arsenic based wood was effective December 31, 2003 ( www.epa.gov/oppad001/reregistration/cca/ ). The problem is that there are a couple different processes being used, and one of them, used in about half the wood, is very corrosive, so you will only want to use stainless fasteners, not even galvanized. The Simpson Company's literature talks about how serious the problem is and then advises that you ask your lumber supplier which process was used to treat the wood, so you can check it against their list, but most stores don't track all their wood and keep a list of what came from which pallet, and how it was processed. Best to treat all of it as the corrosive stuff for now until they industry gets the problem squared away.
The other issue with PT is the inside of the wood. Cutting a PT board in half will quickly reveal that the preservative does not penetrate all the way to the core. When you cut the wood, the end that is cut has no protection at that point except what you put on it and often people forget, an that is where the rot starts from.
Anyway, best of luck.
David
The other issue with PT is the inside of the wood. Cutting a PT board in half will quickly reveal that the preservative does not penetrate all the way to the core. When you cut the wood, the end that is cut has no protection at that point except what you put on it and often people forget, an that is where the rot starts from.
Anyway, best of luck.
David
Captains Cat
New member
marvin4239":j3uieeik said:The decking I was referring to earlier that a lot of the new marinas are using is called Cumaru Brizilian. Don't know how expensive it is but it looks just like teak and appears to be just as hard.
http://www.advantagelumber.com/cumaru_decking.htm
The price is there on line. Don't know how a marina affords it though, it's very pricey! Sure looks nice though.
Charlie
marvin4239
New member
Captains CatThe price is there on line. Don't know how a marina affords it though said:I noticed the price after I posted. The new Marina in South Port NC and the Moorehead City Yacht Basin has it. These are huge Marina's so apparently they must have gotten a much better price than the website I posted. Although this stuff was new it was very tight grained and didn't appear as if it would have the same problems with checking as pressure treated wood does. If it last 25 years as the website suggests I guess it would be worth it on the other hand I have some dock boards that are 20 years old and pressure treated pine and still in good shape other than the checking.
Just to clarify, arsenate based treatments such as CCA and ACZA were phased out for use in residential and play structure type use. These treatments are still in use for industrial purposes, including building dock structures for salt water. Neither of the two primary "new" treatments (CA or ACQ) are effective for long term salt water exposure.
There are alternatives to wood for pilings. I saw the marine industry using large diameter PVC pipe, filled with rebar, and a small concrete "head", jetted in with a 2" PVC pipe in the center. As the pipe is jetted in, it is filled with concrete--as it nears the desirable level, holes are cut in the large PvC pipe and SS threaded rod is put in, for the stringers and cross braces. The pipe is filled to the top with concrete and rebar as needed. This is a relitatively in-expensive technique, which is very strong and will outlast currently treated woods. Several of my friends have used this technique with pumped concrete--one friend had the concrete pumped over 300 feet right over his house, and now has a much better dock than he ever had in the past.
As for deck boards, the synthetics are far better than any wood--including Trek. Many of our marinas are now using grid type of plastic decking which allows water to easily come through it, and thus no damage with storms. "Thruflow" is the name. I have seen a number of docks with this, but not used it.
Many of the "exotics" Brazilian woods do come from the tropical rain forrests--not sure that it is a really good idead to be cutting these down from a world wide ecology standpoint. We have used 2.5 treated wood only when it will be imursed. In our bay there are some creosote pressure treated pilings which are at least 80 years old--not in the best of shape--and maybe that is why the fish have 4 eyes....but these old preservatives really worked.
As for deck boards, the synthetics are far better than any wood--including Trek. Many of our marinas are now using grid type of plastic decking which allows water to easily come through it, and thus no damage with storms. "Thruflow" is the name. I have seen a number of docks with this, but not used it.
Many of the "exotics" Brazilian woods do come from the tropical rain forrests--not sure that it is a really good idead to be cutting these down from a world wide ecology standpoint. We have used 2.5 treated wood only when it will be imursed. In our bay there are some creosote pressure treated pilings which are at least 80 years old--not in the best of shape--and maybe that is why the fish have 4 eyes....but these old preservatives really worked.