Do I really need Radar?

In the 22 years I've had Adeline I've really needed radar perhaps 5 times total.

3 of those times have been at the Columbia River Mouth.
Once in the San Juans.
Once between Port Orchard & Bremerton.

In 4 of these instances I was able to fall in behind a boat that DID have radar.

The 1 time I couldn't was off Peacock Spit, North of the Columbia River Mouth. I was all alone in the soup.
Fortunately, I was out of the shipping channel so I hovered 'til the fog lifted.

In each of these instances I put MYSELF in jeopardy because of impatience...I grew weary of waiting for the weather to clear so I forced the issue. Leaving a safe moorage in search of fish.

Now older and wiser, I'm happy to wait until conditions are safe. I've got the time and I'm in no hurry.

In my opinion, if a skipper MUST push the weather, or ranges far from port, or simply can't tolerate sitting in port waiting for the weather to clear, radar is a viable option.

Otherwise, it's one more electronic gadget to master and supervise.
 
Pete,
I think that most people would agree with you that were one to have a choice, one should not push the weather. You obviously have a great deal of common sense. However, what happens if you make all the right decisions, yet find yourself in zero visibility with others around you who do not respect the conditions, and who endanger not only you, but themselves? Statistically perhaps, and depending upon your cruising ground, this could happen only once in 25 years. Many of us would like to level the odds of making it home safely by having radar. A good analogy is air bags in a car. You or your occupants may not ever need them in 60 year's of driving, but then it only takes one fragile moment to change everything.

Rich
 
Radar and Kayaks. I have spotted kayaks many times, with radar running at 1 or 3 miles. The Indian canoes in the fog popped at about half mile plus, and I have seen birds, buoys and rain. Running directly into the sun, the radar finds Sequim bay outer mark much better than I can see it almost every time.

And one time, in fog, I saw a rapidly closing target, turned off to stbd a few degrees and shortly watched an aluminum crabber, flying by, eyes on the plotter, and no clue I was there, or probably any of the other half dozen boats and canoes out there that morning.

Have only been in "Have to" conditions twice, and the radar sure made them less stressful.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

PLI_and_SB_CBGT_2_147.highlight.jpg
 
I want radar but will wait until Garmin comes out with broad band or equivalent technology.

On Monterey bay there is no shipping traffic but lots of kayaks, paddle boards, crab pots, and small wooden rental boats that I need to see. Very short ranges with high vis. is the order of the day. I don't care about anything more than a mile away. In fog, radar or not, I travel at 6 knots. Actually the fog here is almost never 0 vis but often 1/4 to 1/8 mile vis. If I had true 0 vis I would move inshore to the kelp beds and wait it out. Kelp really slows idiots traveling at high speed in fog. Sort of like "Shields Up."

Ron
 
I'm with Tom on this one and love my HD Garmin dome for close quarters fog cruising out in the sound or up north in other relatively confined passages. We see kayaks all the time as well as birds and debris in less than calm water. We keep the range from 1/4 - 1 mile most of the time which still allows us to see out further. The distance setting on the radar is also not strictly tied to the visible distance on the screen so if Tom is set at 1/8 he can likely still see further out on the screen in practice. This varies by unit i am sure.
 
What we all have to remember is that small boats, debris etc, we don't see-not what we see. It is great to say that we don't go any faster than we can see--but in fog, rain, smoke, sand, night, etc--I have been in visibility of less than 50 feet many times. Yes, we need to go slow--but as Tom says, there will be a lot of boats going faster than is advisable--and you have to be able to see these also. This is survival, and avoidance--even with radar.

The point is well made that each of us has different uses for radar (and other safety gear)--which depends on our area, speed, other traffic etc. It is very possible that in his limited situation, that there is no risk of a boat coming in 25 knots, or multiple sudden course changes, just outside of the range of the radar.

Yes, many units have a forward offset of 50% of the range--ie 1/4 mile range, would show 3/8 mile ahead--and 1/4 on the sides. But I still say that these are not practical ranges for a boat operating in open water when cruising--based on over 30 years and many thousands of hours watching a radar scope at sea.

I don't agree with Tom that the Fishing crowd is driving the technology on Radar however. The Broad Band (such as Navico) has been developed for close in work--not far off distance work. It has been driven by the commercial market, not the recreational market. The latest G4 radar from Navico (Simrad, Lowrance, etc) are getting the same resolution from a 18" unit running 30 watts as a 42" open scanner running 6 KW.
 
I have one more radar comment that gives me pause from an experience a few months ago. After a couple of hours wading through fog with about 1/8 mile visibility, I came across a small sailboat just drifting along, waiting for the fog to lift outside of Deception pass. I moved slowly by at 4 knots and could not get that roughly 18ft boat to show up on my HD radar as more than an intermittent blip like a seagull often appears. The water was smooth that morning as well. I could see boats before and after and even other boats at the same time but not that one. If I was a planning to travel in the fog even semi regularly, I would purchase/learn/use every tool available and go slow as well. Stealth boats are out there. I think cruising through the fog is actually fun but so are many risky things. I can't help but question the practice each time I do it.

Greg
 
Greg,

Out of curiosity, I noticed that you have one of those Portland Pudgy tenders mounted in front of your radar dome. Is it possible that your tender restricted the radar's view of the hull of the 18' sailboat, and all you picked up was it's mast as an intermittent blip on radar? Or did the radar have an unobscured view in the situation you described? This is important to me, because like you I have a similar radar set-up. It is unsettling to think that there are boats out there that have stealth-like radar signatures. You certainly drive the point home of going slowly in times of poor visibility, and that fog should be avoided whenever possible.

Rich
 
C-Nile":1s2h43tf said:
Greg,

Out of curiosity, I noticed that you have one of those Portland Pudgy tenders mounted in front of your radar dome. Is it possible that your tender restricted the radar's view of the hull of the 18' sailboat, and all you picked up was it's mast as an intermittent blip on radar? Or did the radar have an unobscured view in the situation you described? This is important to me, because like you I have a similar radar set-up. It is unsettling to think that there are boats out there that have stealth-like radar signatures. You certainly drive the point home of going slowly in times of poor visibility, and that fog should be avoided whenever possible.

Rich
Click to expand...

Hi Rich,

I think there are plenty of small sailboats, rowboats, canoes, and kayaks that don't give much of a return on radar - especially considering very little metal on 'em. If you notice how a daymark paints on radar, it nearly disappears when you are directly abeam of it, then comes back when there is enough of a surface to reflect again. A fine bow or canoe type stern doesn't give much of a reflection, either. We had a trimaran sailboat with a 20' beam that (even with a 47' mast) didn't show up well on radar... radar reflectors are good to have on swoopy boats.

I came home the other morning and it went from excellent visibility to less than 200 feet in 5 minutes. This guy blew by me the other direction, heading for the ramp!

FishingBoatE_001.jpg

A lot of metal in that T-top - he showed up well on radar.

Then down to less than 50 feet in another couple minutes...

ShipChannelE.jpg

Without radar, I would have likely gotten out of the channel, anchored, and waited until the viz improved. Generally not a long wait in this part of the country, but could be an issue if you are in an area with extensive depths and long fog intervals.

I don't go looking for IFR conditions, but it's good to have nav gear that can keep you safe when it comes down around you. And, you still have to keep a careful watch out for small boats. Even when we're kayaking on clear days, we each have a whistle on a lanyard on our PFDs.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Thanks Jim! I'm new to using radar, and did not realize the extent that materials contribute in rendering a boat nearly invisible. It makes perfect sense, so all the more reason for me to avoid conditions of adverse visibility.

Rich
 
I have good radar mounted high up and I've also had the experience of having someone come out of the fog at a high rate of speed that my radar didn't catch. You may see a dozen boats moving on your radar, but that doesn't mean that it's catching all of them.
Lyle
 
We run with the pudgy on top but also tow it much of the time. I have never noticed a difference in the radar performance with it on the roof. Its almost entirely plastic and that boat i couldn't see on radar passed by on the port side and would not have been masked by the pudgy at all angles anyway. Stealth boat.
 
Generally fiberglass and polyethylene are transparent to Radar in close proximity to the transmitter. With the older wave guide, even aluminum masts gave little of a "shadow"--because the transmission was over an area of a minimum from 18 to 24 inches (in most of our boats). Many of the older radars only picked up engine blocks (including outboards), radar reflectors. Carbon fiber is a different story, as are some paints and pigments. The human body has a variable Radar signature.

With the latest 4G technology by Lowrance/Simrad many plastics week to be showing up. This has only been available a few weeks to the public. I spent part of yesterday on board a multimillion dollar 60 foot Cat whose owner is contemplating what electronics to install. His conclusion was the 18" 4 G Simrad Broad band, plus a 72" HD pulsed open array for long distance, even with the far better long resolution of the G 4, which has the capability of showing 1/8 mile and 36 miles on the same screen. (If there is enough vertical separation there should be minimal interference of the HD pulse radar with the 4G).

For anyone who is considering purchase of a new radar I recommend reading the Navico product brochure: (Lowrance, Simrad [more greared for commercial] and Brooks and Gatehouse.)

http://tiny.cc/brkzb

Toward the end of the brochure it does address the issue of Kayaks at short range--remember that this radar is head and shoulders above any current short range "HD" conventional pulse radar. We would all love to see Garmin come out with a comparable Radar--and hopefully they will in the next year or so.
 
another word on kayaks. I was sitting in the fog in the SJ's last summer. We had slept on the hook at Spencer spit and awoke to thick fog. We were 200 ft off the beach(radar and gps map) and could not see it at all. closest boat was 75 ft and I could not see him. Susan took the dog to shore once I confirmed where it was and I watched her on radar. While she was on shore and I was playing with the radar I saw a blip come and go in a slow repeated rhythm. Over and over at the same rhythm but it was moving and getting closer. It was a girl in a kayak and I was not seeing her or the kayak but the paddle blades as she was slowly raising each one in the air. They where the cheap two piece alum or tin paddles. now I was sitting still and the water was flat so I was able to see here starting a long way out,1/2 mile.

I also don't go looking for fog and I don't want anyone getting that idea but some times, a lot of the time, it comes looking for you.

1986 I was working for a microwave communications company. We were in San Francisco for a month running new wave guide on existing towers. One was on the roof of the Southern Pacific building in down town SF. I was on the top 1/3 of the tower, which is 100ft off the top of the building, working when all of a sudden it went dark. I was working on some thing small right in front of my face and did not notice the fog coming in. I looked up from what I was doing and was surprised to see that I could not see my feet or three feet up the tower. The entire city and a good part of northern california disappeared from view. Its really cool and really eerie at the same time. Then the wind changed and in 5 minutes I could see everything again.
 
slept on the hook at Spencer spit and awoke to thick fog
Click to expand...

When I read Tom's post it took me back to one morning @ Spencer Spit when the fog produced a wild, memorable show.

The fog rolled in and out in waves. One moment completely blind and then a brilliant, blue sky.

I was SO glad to be safely anchored and watching the show, warm and cozy.

I was able to find some neat images of that unforgettable day...

Click on the image to be transported back to the magic

IMG_2273.jpg
 
This has been an intresting topic. Maybe it is time for a poll.
1: Yes I have radar
2: No I dont but wish I did, or will have soon
3: No I dont, and for what ever reason do not feel the need
 
Spike":78c3ezp6 said:
This has been an intresting topic. Maybe it is time for a poll.
1: Yes I have radar
2: No I dont but wish I did, or will have soon
3: No I dont, and for what ever reason do not feel the need
Click to expand...

SleepyC :moon
1. Yes -- Raymarine on a C-120.
Always running if the boat is. Usually on a split screen with Radar on one side and Chart plotter on the other or radar overlaid on the appropriate plotter, with usually one out at 6-10 miles plus and one at 1-3miles, (where the radar is).

Good thread, great learning here.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

IMGP2532.thumb.jpg
 
Back
Top