Do I Need Trailer Brakes?

[colbysmith]

There is no doubt in my mind that Boris has a problem with all electric. :roll: However, I believe any engineer will tell you that hydraulic brake fluid and water does not get along. (Salt or fresh.) Salt water will no more bother good electric brakes, than any other corrosive metal dunk in it. So unless you are going to go stainless, you are going to find it doesn't matter rather you go electric or surge in salt water. The salt is going to rust/corrode the brake materials over time. The brake and drum parts on the axle are otherwise pretty much the same between electric or surge! Electric has the electro magnet and surge has the hydraulic piston) (As for the electricity, it's no different than the tail lights you already dunk in the water. Just unplug your pig tail! The electro-magnet on electric brakes is somewhat sealed as for the electrical portion of it!) As for brake control running down the road, you will have a lot better brake control with electric opposed to surge! Now, if you got lots of money and want stainless, then go electric over hydraulic! Colby

 

[Sunbeam]

(As for the electricity, it's no different than the tail lights you already dunk in the water. Just unplug your pig tail!

Okay, this is a tangent, but I didn't start it :wink

Question: I have thought about unplugging the trailer electrical connection ("pigtail") before launching, but I didn't because I figured that without the electrical connection, there would be no power to the solenoid, and without power to the solenoid, how would I be able to reverse? (I didn't experiment because I was on the ramp, and it was crowded.)

I do have sealed LED lights, but perhaps it's still better to have the power disconnected, providing I could reverse. (I have surge brakes, and there is a solenoid that "locks them out" so I can back up.)

Colby: The electric brakes sound interesting. When you say they are no different than the taillights, do you mean something like the "potted" LED lights? Or do you mean like regular-old-bulbed lights (which I have not had good luck with "dunking") Do you think these just have not caught on yet? (Because, I mean, you are a big fan but electric brakes on boat trailers are "supposed" to be a no-no.) Note that I wouldn't want something that could not be launched in salt water (at least it should be no worse than the rest of the trailer).

Sunbeam

 

[Da Nag]

Question: I have thought about unplugging the trailer electrical connection ("pigtail") before launching, but I didn't because I figured that without the electrical connection, there would be no power to the solenoid, and without power to the solenoid, how would I be able to reverse? (I didn't experiment because I was on the ramp, and it was crowded.)

I never unplug, but I'm guessing your brakes would not engage while launching...trailer/boat would be headed downhill, with gravity likely keeping the coupler from activating the brakes.

 

[colobear]

We have led lights and surge brakes. We never unplug but have added sealant to the lights and any connections to try and reduce saltwater intrusion. No problems thus far. I don't particularly like surge brakes. On our travel trailer we had electric over hydraulic and to me they were significantly better than the surge brakes. The main benefits were the ability to engage them from inside the vehicle when I chose to and the fact that they would automatically engage with the amount of braking force I set through the brake controller. I pulled that trailer over many icy roads and mountain passes. Engaging the brakes on the trailer before those on the truck allowed me to prevent jack-knifing the trailer and reduce skid issues when on slippery surfaces. I came down a very steep long grade covered in ice pulling the trailer with a 2wheel drive truck. We made it down safely but at the bottom I had to stop to cool the trailer brakes, a small price to pay.

 

[colbysmith]

Hi Sunbeam. What I was getting at, is, your boat trailer has electrical wires running usually along it's frame, regardless of how high you place your lights, and that frame is submerged. The electro-magnet, while metal itself, has it's wires sealed, just as an LED light does. However, somewhere along the wiring, in most cases, there will be a connection that very likely is not sealed. (Actually, on my trailer, any rewiring I have done has been with the more expensive connectors that seal tight with heat. Yet there are still areas where connections are made, such as the ground wire screwed to the trailer frame, that are not protected.) I have always unplugged my boat trailer pigtails when backing into water, but that's more to keep my system from shorting out and blowing a fuse. However, I have more than once forgot to unplug the pigtail, and have yet to blow a fuse...so maybe ancestry worship.... (Actually, on a really steep ramp, probably better to leave the pigtail plugged in, as electric brakes work in reverse too!) Honestly I question anyone's knowledge about electric trailer brakes that feel they are inferior to any standard surge system. While I don't live on the right or left coast and my trailer is a "freshwater" trailer, I suspect most salt water sailors badmouthing electric brakes, have no personal experience with them. The rust and corrosion of salt water has nothing to do with electric vs. surge, but rather the metals involved and perhaps a lack of maintenance. Unfortunately, most standard electric brake systems use standard iron or metal. (But so do surge or hydraulic!) However, I am reading lately about improved electric systems using more stainless, but that also drives up cost. In the end, if one can afford Stainless, that will be the best system for use in Salt Water. As more electric systems are available with Stainless, I believe you will find an all electric system will continue to be superior to hydraulic, or even electric over hydraulic. Colby

 

[AK Angler]

... Honestly I question anyone's knowledge about electric trailer brakes that feel they are inferior to any standard surge system. ...

I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion, the ability to make adjustments on the fly, and to engage the trailer brakes independent of the tow rig, are significant benefits over any surge brake system.

 

[thataway]

There is a great advantage of a brake system, which can be controlled form the tow vehicle, and independent of the tow vehicle. Many of the C Brats own travel trailers, so they do understand the advantages of this breaking system. There is no argument that there are better systems than the surge brakes, but the argument is a system which fails (electro-magnetic brakes) due to salt water corrosion--and you are left with no brakes. I came on a jackknifed pickup with a small travel trailer on its side blocking the AlCan highway--on my only trip up there. The driver told me that he had to stop suddenly for wildlife--and the electric/magnetic brakes on his trailer did not activate.

British Columbia does not allow surge brakes on trailers with weight greater than 6,160 Ibs. Most go with electric over hydraulic--why not electro-magnetic?-- too much chance for failure when used in the salt water environment.

The bad rap of electric brakes is due to a lot of experience with folks using them in salt water, and the iron core rusting out.

Here is a quote about magnetic electric brakes on boat trailers, from one of the large internet after market trailer dealers:

If you want to go to electric brakes you can, but you will need to be sure to rinse the brakes with clear water each time you use the boat in salt water conditions. I normally do not recommend electric brakes in wet conditions but it can be done. Electric brakes will corrode much faster and are not available with galvanized parts like hydraulic drum brakes are. They will definitely need to be maintained.

Three of my friends tried electric brakes for their 21 foot sailboats, and the brakes did not even last thru the summer trip. They rusted and shorted out within 3 months.

Fulton is susposed to make galvanized electric brakes--but there is little about them on the internet. It is very possible that today someone makes brakes which are fully potted in epoxy, but there are always issues with the interface where wires, and the magnetic part of the brake join.

Colby your ideas about electric brakes in salt water might be a bit naive, since you have never experienced the problems with them. There is no interaction with salt water and hydraulic fluid. The surge disc brakes and electric drum brakes are considerably different in construction and materials. It is the corrosive action of the salt water that is the problem. Disc brakes are better than drum brakes both in braking power, and because they are open, and you can clean them well with fresh water after use. SS discs are more prone to warping that steel brakes are. You need a core for the electric brake activator, which is magnetic--SS should not be magnetic. (The way to test for SS, is to carry a magnet, and see if it "sticks".) There are some SS alloys which have partial magnetic properties. Fresh water is far less conductive than salt water.

The better trailer light system will have all sealed connectors (which is what I do with my trailers). There is a dedicated ground wire--rather than relying on the trailer frame. I have gone to all potted LED lights. I have been running boat trailers for over 55 years--and always have some corrosion with lights. Not a thing to do with plugged or not pluged in when immersed.

The basic problem is the same as why salt water trailers are galvanized steel or aluminum--rather than the cheaper painted steel. Steel/iron rusts.


The need for brakes in light trailers might vary with driving habits and trips. The OP posted that the boat was going to be trailered from Vancouver Island to Texas. One would presume that means a lot of fairly high speed driving--and stopping on occasion. The reason I posted the braking distance of the FJ Cruiser was to show the difference in stopping distance in a high speed stop. An extra 57 feet of distance traveled during a hard braking can mean the difference between being safe--and crashing into the vehicle in front of you.

I would much rather have a trailer dragging from behind, than an unbraked trailer pushing me ahead. Granted, it would be best to have both synchronized braking and independent trailer braking for control.

Maybe the best solution is for mangobob is to get a cheap set of electro/magentic brakes (as low as $40 plus shipping per side, plus cost of controller)--and even replace them each year.. could be pretty cheap insurance.

 

[JamesTXSD]

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have experience with surge brakes, electric brakes, and electric over hydraulic. Towing our CD-25, we find that electric over hydraulic is a great solution. The actuator is located forward and up on the trailer and isn't exposed to salt water immersion. I am not familiar with any boat trailer manufacturer who recommends strictly electric brakes... especially with trailers that are made for salt water use. On a trailer we had for a previous sailboat, the trailer manufacturer flat stated that electric brakes were not an option and not recommended for boat trailers; surge brakes or electric over hydraulic only.

The surge brakes are fine if you are towing on mostly level terrain. Go down a long, steep decline, and you may burn up the brakes because the surge will constantly be activated by the compression braking on the tow vehicle. Many of us with the surge brakes have also had issues with the solenoid not releasing when you put the tow vehicle into reverse, and the brakes locking when you try to back the trailer. This was a regular source of irritation with our experience. Less of an issue with a light weight boat. The switch to electric over hydraulic eliminates that problem. AND the problem with the brakes overheating on downhill situations. With a proper tow vehicle, trailer sway is less of an issue, but there is no way to engage surge brakes without slowing your tow vehicle - with the electric over hydraulic, reach down to the controller and you can engage just the trailer brakes... with the same gradual engagement that you have with your tow vehicle.

We have electric brakes on our HitchHiker 5th wheel. While fine on a land based tow, there is still the jerk when the electrics engage. No amount of adjusting on the controller in the truck makes it smooth with every situation - and it changes if you are moving slow or fast. I would absolutely prefer the electric over hydraulic with that heavier load.

A free opinion, based on experience with each. No 2¢ requested.

Jim

 

[colbysmith]

Bob, I have to respectfully disagree with your comments on electric brake components. Specifically where you say: "The surge disc brakes and electric drum brakes are considerably different in construction and materials.". To my knowledge, the materials used in standard drum brakes are the same rather they are electric or hydraulic. The difference lies in one using a hydraulic cylinder, the other an electro-magnet. I believe the brake shoes, drums and springs are all the same material. The electromagnets I get with my Dexter kits are partially encased in epoxy. Moisture can find it's way into any hydraulic cylinder or system that has bad seals or other leaks. There are a lot of hydraulic surge systems out there that do not work. Lack of maintenance, corrosion, what have you. With any system, some maintenance is going to be required. This is especially true in salt or brackish waters. Looking over many different forums about boat trailer brakes and salt water, it sounds like any system has a short lifespan, that gets shorter without a routine fresh water rinse! Speaking with fresh water experience, I'll stand by my all electric over any other system. It's also going to be the safest on the road, if maintained properly.

 

[thataway]

Colby, read what I wrote:

"The surge disc brakes and electric drum brakes are considerably different in construction and materials.".

I was not comparing the hydraulic drum and electrical/magnetic drums, which are reasonably similar.

Any system needs to be maintained, and that is not the issue. The issue is corrosion of the electrical/magnetic part of the brake. The disc brake is a better brake. A hydraulic brake drum brake can have more braking force than an electric/magnetic drum brake. If the electric brake is so great--why don't you have them on your car? Or for that matter why have they not caught on for boat trailers? There is a very good reason.

I have yet to see water in a surge brake system--I suppose it could happen, but you would be leaking hydraulic fluid first. Checking the fluid level is part of any pre trip check, as well as inspecting the lines and checking to be sure that the brakes are working properly. Just like checking the wheel bearings, tire pressure, safety chains, coupling etc, should be part of the inspection before you hook up.

I did not submit that electric brakes cannot be good trailer brakes--but that in salt water there is going to be a significantly higher failure rate. For you in fresh water--they work fine. Stick with them. But you do not know what is best for salt water.

 

[colbysmith]

Bob, I totally agree that the disc brake is a better brake. As for the stopping capability of electric vs. hydraulic, I have locked up electric trailer brakes on both the 4500 lbs C-22 & trailer, and also on a 9300 lb Searay 268 Sundancer & trailer. Both types of brakes can lock up brakes! (of course the idea is not to lock them up! Electric trailer brakes have been around for quite some time, and I think have proven to be very effective. Even on land based trailers they are driven in wet and salty conditions. Getting back to the original post I suppose, since this is getting like the twin vs. single argument.... :roll: If someone is looking for an inexpensive brake system that will work well if maintained, the simplest and most cost efficient would be all electric.

Here's another forum I found with folks discussing the same issue, but I think have a lot more pro-electric!

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/general- ... marine-use

 

[AK Angler]

Well, Bob, I'm trying to ignore the palpable condescension in your previous post. But, I have to say that I do use my boats almost exclusively in salt water. (So maybe my opinion counts.)

I've used electric drum brakes on my boat trailers for the past 10 years with very few issues, save a particular period of time when I failed to perform adequate maintenance. I do agree that the components don't last forever. But with regular inspection, any developing issues can be identified and corrected before those issues become problems. Just like other brake systems - or most any other system on a boat - electric drum brakes that are properly maintained will provide years of trouble free service. And on the up side, replacement parts for electric drum brakes are fairly inexpensive - as are the better electric brake controllers, something that cannot be said about an electric over hydraulic systems, or surge brake systems.

The bottom line is, even with a short wheelbase tow rig, brakes of any type aren't necessarily a requirement for towing a 16-footer (which was the impetus for this thread). But, if one wants, or is required by law, to put brakes under a CD16, electric drums are certainly adequate. And in my opinion (which is obviously an opinion shared by some others), they just might be the best choice.

 

[jack keifer]

We have a 16 Cruiser and by living in Boise tow everywhere. In fact we just finished a 1,000 mile trip to Lake Couer d'Alene. We likely have a trailer similar to yours and it does not have brakes. I am thankful because it is one less maintenance item. The problem with boat trailer brakes is after they are soaked a number of times they lose their effectiveness and then when you need them they are not there. What is more important is good driving habits when towing. Increase your distance when following, downshift to a lower gear when traveling downhill so that you don 't have to use brakes, or use them sparingly, get off the throttle sooner when coming to reduced speed zone and if you have to brake do it gently so that the trailer is not pushing you, and finally avoid a potential jacknife situation by braking in a straight line. I think this strategy will do more to safely preserve tow vehicle brake life than then adding trailer brakes. Our tow vehicle is an '04 Yukon with 94,000 miles and it still has the original brake pads on all 4 corners with significant life left in them. I might add a high percentage of those miles have been towing one trailer or another, including a 4 horse trailer, cars to race tracks, and our 22 C-Dory to such places as the San Juan's, San Francisco Bay, and Yellowstone Lake. And I usually drive the speed limit or a little more, so I am convinced how you drive is a more of a factor than having brakes on a trailer when legally they are nor required.
Cheers and happy motoring
Jack

 

[olsurfdog]

OK-I can't resist. Have to add my $.02.
Doesn't matter how much HP My car has. If I'm going down the road at 60mph being able to stop in 104' is much better than 132'. Especially if the idiot that pulled out in front of me and stalled is at 110' ahead. Doesn't matter if I allow extra distance between me and the car in front or I drive like the best expert defensive driving pro. Whatever, stopping shorter is safer!!! Maybe I'll never need that extra braking power but it sure is nice when/if I need it. Drive long enough and sooner or latter the time probably will come...... If I decide to tow a trailer (and the extra weight involved) without trailer brakes my vehicle may be able to stop but no way is it going to be as quick as without the extra load or trailer brakes. Guess we all have to decide what chances to take. Sort of like whether to wear a life jacket or not--never needed one to this point. Don't know about you but when/if I need it I'll be much happier if it is on! Make your decision on how much of a chance your willing to take.
Now, type of brakes (or twin vs. single) is another story. I'll not go there!! :moon

 

[T.R. Bauer]

If I'm going down the road at 60mph being able to stop in 104' is much better than 132'. Especially if the idiot that pulled out in front of me and stalled is at 110' ahead.

Of course you are right. The only way to prevent this is to stay home as there is absolutely no end to this line of reasoning. Brakes are going to help, but do remember even with brakes on the trailer the FJ still isn't going to attain the 104 60-0 mph stopping distance of the Mustang GT....Or the 99 feet the Vette does. Its really kind of rediculous to even compare the two. I'm not sure why or how we went there as with this logic that FJ isn't even safe to drive at all - which is silly because it is just fine.

The original poster asked if it was safe to tow his 16 without brakes on the trailer with his FJ. A lot of States require you have brakes and a lot don't. I used to tow a heavier 16 foot boat without brakes on the trailer with a similar wheel based Bronco and Toyota Hilux with probably a poorer braking system. It was fine and went down lots of 6-8% grades taking to Lake Roosevelt in Washington for trout fishing. I think it is reasonably safe given a cautious driver taking it easy. If the law says you have to have them, well then you have to have them. If he feels uncomfortable towing it without brakes, by all means he should get some installed.

 

[thataway]

Well, Bob, I'm trying to ignore the palpable condescension in your previous post. But, I have to say that I do use my boats almost exclusively in salt water. (So maybe my opinion counts.)
.

Jack, let me apologize if you found any of my posts condescending. That was not the intent--and in the last several posts the only item which might have been directed at your posts (not you), is where I noted I would rather be drug from behind than pushed by a trailer. The vast majority of my comments were specifically addressed to Colby, who boats exclusively in fresh water. For him the electro magnetic brake woks well--but it has not for the far vast majority of boaters I had known. I suspect we all learned something from this conversation--at least I hope we did.

If a person asks if they should have brakes on a boat trailer, to me than means that there is some question in their mind that they need them. Specifically there was a vehicle mentioned, the braking distance for the vehicle is on the internet. I would not feel safe if I had an extra 57 feet of travel when I had to make an emergency stop from 60 mph--so I would opt for trailer brakes of some type. The issue then becomes what type of brakes. I understand that you don't like surge brakes. I agree that they are not ideal. But in my experience they are the better. Colby and you both make good cases for electric brakes. Maybe they are a lot better now than in the past.

I had drummed into my brain as a kid that being safe was very important. I grew up in company housing of an electric company substations, where there were multiple very serious hazards. I have carried that safety conscious behavior into boating and my practice of medicine. I want others to also be safe.

 

[olsurfdog]

Of course you are right. The only way to prevent this is to stay home as there is absolutely no end to this line of reasoning. Brakes are going to help, but do remember even with brakes on the trailer the FJ still isn't going to attain the 104 60-0 mph stopping distance of the Mustang GT....Or the 99 feet the Vette does.

No implication of that, only that trailer brakes will help you stop shorter. Makes sense to me. Even if I never had to make a panic stop with my trailer, I'd still rather be ready to than not. Just because I haven't needed it yet doesn't mean I never will. As with the life jacket, I'd rather have it than not. Especially if your tow vehicle is even close to its capacity. No way to predict when you'll need them. There must be some logic to trailer brakes or there wouldn't be any requirement, in any state, for them. (Please!! Let's not get into a discussion of "do state regulations make sense".)

 

[colbysmith]

Surge brakes are probably better than no brakes. However, there was a reason that the DOT did not approve of surge brakes for a while. If one keeps their surge brakes well maintained, and setup properly, they can work decently on flat, straight and level. But one needs to understand how they work. And that is, they work by pushing against the tow vehicle. They will never "tug" or help stop the tow vehicle. As soon as that begins to happen, the trailer brakes release. If surge brakes are setup properly, as soon as the trailer begins to "push" the tow vehicle, the surge brakes are engaged and that helps to slow the trailer, until it is no longer pushing on the tow vehicle. You can not adjust how much stopping power is being applied by the surge trailer brakes from within your tow vehicle, as you can with electric (or EOH) trailer brakes. On dry pavement going straight, the properly setup surge trailer brakes simply stop or reduce the amount of force the trailer is pushing the vehicle. But get the tow vehicle on a slippery surface, and all hell can break loose as the trailer initially pushes the vehicle at the hitch. With an electric system (all or EOH), the trailer brakes are activated as soon as you push on your brake pedal and/or the control unit in the cab feels deceleration. And can actually be used alone to help straighten out a fishtailing vehicle or one that has lost it's own brakes. With EOH (Electric over Hydraulic) you add one more component to the mix, the small electric motor that usually sits on the trailer tongue that transfers the electric signal into hydraulic pressure. This added component is probably worth it if one wants to go to a superior disc brake setup, but is also one more component that can fail. (I do not have any experience with EOH, and wonder if there is any kind of delay from when the car brakes are applied until the unit activates the trailer brakes...) However, if one is running standard brake drums and shoes anyway, for most purposes, all the components in either a hydraulic or all electric system are made of the same metal/iron material. The electro magnets I've purchased have the wires encased inside the "magnet", with epoxy on the one side, so the "windings" are sealed from the water. Dunking an electric brake for a few minutes, is really not that much different from the soaking they can get traveling many miles down wet roads. Same goes for traveling down salted roads in the Midwest Winters. Bob, all I can suggest regarding your three friends, is lack of maintenance, cheap components or exaggeration... And most negative comments I read online or in magazines are from folks that do not have personal experience with the component, but are rather just repeating something they've heard from somebody else, or read from backyard mechanics, or folks that should know better, but don't! :evil: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Any system will fail that is not maintained. I continue to recommend electric brakes to anyone that doesn't want the added expense of EOH or Disc, but I also suggest they go with better to best products. :wink Which gets us back to the original reason for this post. Installing all electric brakes on a trailer is still going to be the most cost efficient and safe system! And will definitely make towing safer. Colby

 

[Hunkydory]

I think the + & - of the three different brake systems or no brakes have been well stated by the many post on this thread. Personally, for well over a million miles I've pulled trailers using surge, electrical, electrical over hydraulics, air over hydraulics & no brakes in all sizes from very light to heavy recreational to the big rigs requiring a CDL. One type I don't have experience with is boat trailers using electrical only brakes & that is due to all that Bob describes, which is in my opinion pretty representative of most of the experienced people using boat trailers in salt water. Perhaps that's now changing & the electrics are as good as Colby & a few others here have decribed. I really like the electric over hydraulics on the latest replacement trailer that I have towed the Hunkydory the last 20000 miles including three trips to Skagway Alaska, but I had 50000 miles on the prior one with surge brakes & several more Alaska-Canada trips & other trips including steep grades on snow & ice without any mishaps or even close calls & though I do prefer the electric over hydraulics, I think that surge brakes with a competent driver & a tow vehicle well matched for the trailer weight a ok system too.

As to Bruce's original question. I think he has plenty of input on this thread to sort through & then do what he feels best & that's about as good as it gets on subjects such as this.

Jay