Design Headaches

S

slowtrot

New member
My CD 19 is simple, robust, and easy to maintain. It is intuitive. The Yamaha 90 is comparatively much more complicated but better than most in design. Trailer design could be one of those in need of major change.

I made my bones in manufacturing and I was forever confronted with machinery with design flaws that drove me around the bend. Those same design flaws seem to be growing everywhere I look today. I do not mean design as in esthetics but as in engineering. Things are made for every purpose except maintenance and repair it seems.

Here is a list that I am willing to pay extra to have in the things that I now buy like boats, motors, motorcycles, RVs, tractors, cars, woodworking machines, heaters, ACs, guns, trailers, chainsaws, weedwackers, power tools etc etc.

1. Minimum standard fasteners. Had to take off the fairing on my Honda motorcycle the other day and had slot screws, square drive screws, star drive screws, philips screws hex screws, and 10 mm bolts, What are they thinking.

2. Fewer bolt sizes. Why do we have so many sizes. Pick a gew and stay with them. Why do I have to constantly find another size wrench.

3. No special tools. Why do we have to contend with all the specials. Why not just use simple standards. Most quick disconnects are not.

4. Deburr all edges metal and plastic. Why do we have to stir our hands in razors?.

5. Put coded readouts on all electrics. Why do I have to have a code book and a special reader?

6. Design things so that you can reach them. Put the at risk parts on the outside.

7. Put lubrication fittings on all bearings and wear surfaces. Lube for life is stupid design. Nothing is sealed forever.

Things wear. Parts break. Good design anticipates this. Alas, good design is a hard thing to find.

Slowtrot.
 
Agreed. But I have a proposal. It's not foolproof, but it might improve some things.

Have the designers actually work with and on the things they design. On the Camry, let them change the drive belts and suffer the cuts, removing half the car to get at those belts. And try to guess not only what the bolt size is, but how to get to it.

And this includes software. I used Kaiser's website, just to see my payments, resulting in a telephone call. That was terrible. First of all, they have a hidden web site for financial, and it doesn't make sense. Even with the young lady "helping" I had trouble guessing. Let those designers work their way through that mess.

And the designers don't get feedback. How do you give feedback to Toyota, a multi-national company? Kaiser only wants statistical numbers, not statements such as "your software design stinks."

And, yes, things are designed only for production. The user isn't considered, because that'd cost money. And people buy cheap.

Boris
 
Slowtrot, Vern and Boris, having worked in auto repair for over 40 years I hear you!! I remember doing oil changes as an apprentice and the average car would have at least 10 or 12 grease fittings. Now you are lucky to find one! As far as sealed bearings go they do seem to last a long time, possibly because they do a better job of sealing out the dirt and moisture. Some cars now even have the auto trans. sealed for life with synthetic fluid. Don't know how they add fluid if it develops a leak at the driveshaft seal.

One of my pet peeves is manufacturers who use some metric and some standard fasteners. Ford is bad for this.

I worked for Honda for many years and one thing I liked about them was - if you had a 10, 12, 14, 17 and 19mm socket you could take just about the entire car apart!!

Smaller, lighter more aerodynamic cars unfortunately also means that their mechanical components are harder to get at and tighter to work on. Even in the collision end of it now, gaps are very narrow and adjustment on most parts is very minimal.

Regards, Rob
 
Part of my working life I ran a company where one of the products was starters for combined cycle power plants. They were a different scale to the ones on your boat or your truck, the biggest being 12,000 HP and 42 tons. That's the starter not the gas turbine being started.

One of the first ones we built went to a power station in Florida. From a production design perspective it was a thing of beauty, streamlined for fast assembly on the shop floor. Of course being an early production unit we had a teething issue after only 6 months of operation. Nothing big as an issue but it shut the power station down. Our head service technician and 4 site techs. took 3 days straight to make the fix. Access to the part that needed a change was a nightmare. It cost us a LOT.

After that the service tech. sat in on every design review stage and was on hand for the first assembly of each new variant. His approach was always "simple tools and easy access" for all the potential trouble spots. As a result we tracked 99.6% availability, including scheduled maintenance, over the first 10 years of operation. Customers with power plant to run like availability.

The Yamaha motors on the back of Chimo are thing of beauty but I don't tackle anything beyond general maintenance. My bicycle, on the other hand, can have major repairs and adjustments carried out with only the cycle mutitool and a couple of tire levers that I carry in the pocket of my jersey. Obviously the designers rode bicycles!
 
In my experience the designers and engineers of products never actually spend a lot of time working on the things they build. It's put it together and get it out the door. Their mindset is either that "my design is so perfect that it will never break so you'll never have to fix it" or "if it breaks it won't be my problem, and look how much money I saved in the design and/or manufacture".

On a lot of the equipment I work on I often wonder what the h**l they were thinking as they built it when I have to fix something.

On the Nissans I used to have you could do most repairs with a Phillips screwdriver and a 10mm and 14mm socket.

One of the problems with cars is that they are designed by groups of committees and it makes it hard to maintain a universal standard amongst all the participants. Even if you try there is always someone who thinks the rules don't apply to them.
 
slowtrot":3c1l0hof said:
My CD 19 is simple, robust, and easy to maintain. It is intuitive. The Yamaha 90 is comparatively much more complicated but better than most in design. Trailer design could be one of those in need of major change.

I made my bones in manufacturing and I was forever confronted with machinery with design flaws that drove me around the bend. Those same design flaws seem to be growing everywhere I look today. I do not mean design as in esthetics but as in engineering. Things are made for every purpose except maintenance and repair it seems.

Here is a list that I am willing to pay extra to have in the things that I now buy like boats, motors, motorcycles, RVs, tractors, cars, woodworking machines, heaters, ACs, guns, trailers, chainsaws, weedwackers, power tools etc etc.

1. Minimum standard fasteners. Had to take off the fairing on my Honda motorcycle the other day and had slot screws, square drive screws, star drive screws, philips screws hex screws, and 10 mm bolts, What are they thinking.

2. Fewer bolt sizes. Why do we have so many sizes. Pick a gew and stay with them. Why do I have to constantly find another size wrench.

3. No special tools. Why do we have to contend with all the specials. Why not just use simple standards. Most quick disconnects are not.

4. Deburr all edges metal and plastic. Why do we have to stir our hands in razors?.

5. Put coded readouts on all electrics. Why do I have to have a code book and a special reader?

6. Design things so that you can reach them. Put the at risk parts on the outside.

7. Put lubrication fittings on all bearings and wear surfaces. Lube for life is stupid design. Nothing is sealed forever.

Things wear. Parts break. Good design anticipates this. Alas, good design is a hard thing to find.

Slowtrot.
Click to expand...
Points all well taken -- although I would add to this the frustration found in service, or instruction manuals, that are written up by people who (I believe) have never swung a wench in their lives-
 
And you don't even have to go sophisticated mechanical systems to see this. My pet peeves even include clothing:
Cargo shorts - big, outside pockets very handy on a boat, except that they are on the front and so deep that that a big knife or multitool in there beats your kneecap to mush.
Zipper tabs - big, rounded, even a lanyard, on your foul weather gear. Great. Little, sharp-cornered, devil tabs in your fly. Bad. Scratchs up your member if you don't fold it down; it gets stuck in the bottom if you do fold it down.
Flip-flops - a combination of how the strap is attached to the sole, nature of the sole interior (is that meant to get the sand out?), size and angle of the strap between your toes; all leads me to believe that the designers never try them on, much less walk around with them on.
Caps - those curved, cool-looking brims: so narrow that you're lucky if it will even shade your nose, much less keep your eyes in the shade. The lid so shallow that to fit, you can't use the Velcro adjustor at the back - 5 knot breeze and the cap is gone!
Label in the back of T-shirts - I have to cut them out to save the back of my neck. The cheap-jack trick of painting the label on the inside, in lieu of a cloth label, for me is actually removing a real pain in the neck.
Sunglasses - some so dark, your irises are dilated in bright sun; messes up your depth of field, too. Wrap-arounds that let barrel-roll distortion wrap-around into you field of view: and I thought bifocals were annoying.
Now that I'm dressed, I can go outside and agree with how right you mechanically-oriented guys are about the hardware. :smiled
Rod
 
A couple of observations, after using "STUFF" for a bunch of years.

1. If there were not "IMPROVEMENTS" then the engineers would run out of jobs.

2. Every new engineer can "do it better" than the one before.

3. Making it better (as in another version with an update" makes for job security.

4. Improvements are not always done my engineers, but somebody always has to approve and then the new and improved will be sent out to the consumer, whose input is rarely considered.

***Nothing against engineers, they do many and wonderful things. And my Engineer friends who have heard this agree, logic and common sense do not always (if ever) get much consideration.

"I nominate slowtrot for president !!! :D " :thup :thup

Imagine the cost savings possibilities there, all the way around.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

SSC_CPR_and_Patient_419.thumb.jpg
 
Certainly all excellent points. But I suspect that most of them are cost of the retail product driven.

Rod, Fruit of the Loom & Hanes must have been reading your mind. My recent jockey shorts and T shirts have printed on the cloth labels--no tags. In this case, I am sure the printed on the cloth are far cheaper. As for sun glasses--I try them on, and have several different pair for different conditions!--of course I cannot find the proper one all of the time!
 
Yes, manuals are sometimes written by people who never have or never will actually use them. On the other hand sometimes they are written by people with intimate knowledge of the product and how to repair it. To them some important things are just intuitive or automatic and are not really a conscious thought. These steps often don't get included in the manual because "duh, everyone should know that", when it may not actually be as obvious to some one working on something for the first time.

When I was writing manuals the end test was to give it to someone who might reasonably be expected to work on the system described and see if they could actually accomplish the task. Unfortunately this can be expensive and is probably not done that often in the real world.
 
My take on Recalls: They really are a good thing. If you buy an expensive piece of equipment (car, boat, plane) faults and appropriate updates are in order and cost effective. Factories should be doing this on a regular basis. And the needed parts, if not under warrantee, should not be priced multiples over normal profit margins. Also mechanics and technicians may need special training. The updates normally should be done by appointment.
 
Not that it really applies to anything, here's a story on I have on a recall on my Toyota van.

I got a recall notice about the cable that drives the side door saying that it could corrode. I made an appointment and took it in. When I went to pick it up, they yes the van was subject to the recall but that they couldn't do anything until it actually broke. I told them I was going on a 10-day road trip an wanted it fixed before I left. They said sorry Toyota won't let them do anything until it breaks. I asked if the cable broke would the door still operate manually, and they said it would.

On the second day of the trip the cable broke and the door was jammed.

When I got back I made another appointment to get the door looked at. The dealer said yes the cable was broken (duh, it was hanging down the side of the van), and would be fixed under the recall. They also said that they did not expect the parts in for a couple months and would call me when they were available so I could make another appointment to get the door fixed.

So get the door fixed under the recall I had to make three service appointments and it took about 3.5 months. Plus, put up with the door not working for that period. If they just fixed when I brought it in the first place, Toyota would have saved some money and I would be more likely to buy another of their vehicles in the future.
 
Hey Bob, sunglasses, coffee cups & cigarette lighters don't really belong to you, your just a temporary custodian, wear what you got! Hardee, I'm just thrilled, your the first Guy that's ever agreed with me! I nominate Hardee for Vice President!! Vern :D :thup :thup
 
I will say this about sunglasses and it falls under the heading "something I should have done a long time ago". After years of struggling with clip ons over my regular glasses I finally bit the bullet and bought a pair of Maui Jim prescription sunglasses. I went the whole hog and got the highest quality lenses possible. I have a progressive prescription and these things cost me about as much as a new outboard for the dinghy! They are truly fantastic!! The quality of the optics is like nothing I had experienced before. That includes the peripheral vision that I had always experienced as being distorted. These things are really great.

The experience with the sunglasses made me think about my regular glasses and I broke the bank, going for new frames and really high quality lenses. After 50 years of wearing glasses I was stunned when I put these things on. I know it was a lot of money that I spent but coming back from Friday Harbor last week in a heavy chop I spotted a deadhead in Haro Strait that I'm not sure I would've seen a while ago and was able to take evasive action. Money well spent!
 
No special tools. Why do we have to contend with all the specials. Why not just use simple standards. Most quick disconnects are not.
Click to expand...

But...but...but...this way you HAVE to either:
-buy the tool(s)
-or go see a dealer/mechanic/shop that has them

This would put people out of work. You sound like a communist. :wink: :lol:
 
I got a recall notification for my 2005 Jeep Liberty to have a dealer inspect the factory installed tow hitch. It went on to say that some have failed from a low impact and gone forwarded into the gas tank! This may cause a fire threat to the occupants of the vehicle.
You have to wonder about that one- as- if the hitch is so poorly fastened to be a threat - what about its capacity to tow 5000lbs its factory rated for?
 
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