CatyMae n Steve
New member
TyBoo":3enc6tok said:
wussy-wig? I got a belly laugh out of that one :xlol
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wysiwyg will never be the same!
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Design Changes to the 22 Cruiser
- Thread starter acgetz
- Start date
wussy-wig? I got a belly laugh out of that one :xlol
What
You
See
Is
What
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wysiwyg will never be the same!
If you're interested in what the cockpit liner looks like on the new 22's check out the "the first days" photo's in my album. I am finally picking the boat up from EQ Harbor Service this week weather permitting. Tried to get it last week put ran into some electronics problems that Les had to sort out. We did do the sea trials last week. That was lots of fun. We have had record rains here in the NW and many of the rivers have been at flood. As a result Coronet Bay and Deception Pass were full of trees, logs and other junk that was chugging along at 4 to 6 knots in the Deception Pass current. We had a great time trying trying to avoid all this and it made for an interesting day on the water.
mjuds":3av7qh6u said:I was told when I bought the boat that under the raised floor of the cockpit liner the factory installed foam like that under the forward berths. I would assume that this is for extra floatation
Or to fill up the void and eliminate the weight and space taking of the water!
Joe.
You know, Joe,
I really do not think there are "huge quality control problems in the TomCat" 255. Half of Thataway's problems are with flexible, nylon attachments and hose clamps, and caulk seams. The temperature build up in a closed boat in Florida can cycle to nudge 140 degrees. The boat was shipped from a cool, wet climate, thru a hot, dry climate, to a hot, humid climate over 3,000 miles of concrete road.
Thermal cycling, vibrations, and simply the passing of time contribute to loosening fittings on campers, motorhomes, as well as boats. It is the normal task of an owner to check for and tighten or reseal each area as needed. I don't think a sealant/caulk exists that never shrinks, or that could accidentally be placed with a void, or upon an oily spot, etc.. Such is life.
My last new diesel motorhome cost several times the amount of the TomCat and piddly little problems arose from day one. Even the Cummins diesel engine had an injector tube fitting come loose and spray fuel until retightened. Just like the TomCat, there are dozens of instruction manuals for all the "added" parts like fridge, water heater, water pump, etc.. The more systems you have in a craft, the more likely that something will loosen, leak, or malfunction in some way.
Decades ago, I arrived at one of my "Facts of Life" sayings:
"Everything you own, owns you - there is responsibility taken on with ownership." That is, once you buy something, you have to house it, clean it , protect it, repair it, and periodically recondition it. Having a 5,000 square foot house is twice the responsibility of a 2500 square foot house, four times the responsibility of a 1250 square foot house, and eight times the responsibility of a 625 square foot apartment. You have to clean it, insure it, paint it, fix it, heat/cool it, etc.. El and Bill have this down to a fine art, you know!
So, when one purchases a boat, the larger it is, the more responsibility it is. Those two 150 hp outboards on a TomCat require alot more fuel and upkeep than a 16 foot C-Dory's 50 hp outboard. Two outboards are twice as likely to have a problem as one outboard regardless of the brand name. Housing, storage, winterizing is a major responsibility. If there is no sink/water pump, water heater, you eliminate any problems with those systems.
The new C-Ranger 25 tugs are beautiful with many MORE optional systems - generator, heat pump, engine water heater, thrusters. The more systems you have added on to whatever boat, the more likely you are to have some problems. This should not be a surprise. The universe, unattended, tends to chaos. Such is life.
Buy only that for which you are willing and able to be responsible!
John
I really do not think there are "huge quality control problems in the TomCat" 255. Half of Thataway's problems are with flexible, nylon attachments and hose clamps, and caulk seams. The temperature build up in a closed boat in Florida can cycle to nudge 140 degrees. The boat was shipped from a cool, wet climate, thru a hot, dry climate, to a hot, humid climate over 3,000 miles of concrete road.
Thermal cycling, vibrations, and simply the passing of time contribute to loosening fittings on campers, motorhomes, as well as boats. It is the normal task of an owner to check for and tighten or reseal each area as needed. I don't think a sealant/caulk exists that never shrinks, or that could accidentally be placed with a void, or upon an oily spot, etc.. Such is life.
My last new diesel motorhome cost several times the amount of the TomCat and piddly little problems arose from day one. Even the Cummins diesel engine had an injector tube fitting come loose and spray fuel until retightened. Just like the TomCat, there are dozens of instruction manuals for all the "added" parts like fridge, water heater, water pump, etc.. The more systems you have in a craft, the more likely that something will loosen, leak, or malfunction in some way.
Decades ago, I arrived at one of my "Facts of Life" sayings:
"Everything you own, owns you - there is responsibility taken on with ownership." That is, once you buy something, you have to house it, clean it , protect it, repair it, and periodically recondition it. Having a 5,000 square foot house is twice the responsibility of a 2500 square foot house, four times the responsibility of a 1250 square foot house, and eight times the responsibility of a 625 square foot apartment. You have to clean it, insure it, paint it, fix it, heat/cool it, etc.. El and Bill have this down to a fine art, you know!
So, when one purchases a boat, the larger it is, the more responsibility it is. Those two 150 hp outboards on a TomCat require alot more fuel and upkeep than a 16 foot C-Dory's 50 hp outboard. Two outboards are twice as likely to have a problem as one outboard regardless of the brand name. Housing, storage, winterizing is a major responsibility. If there is no sink/water pump, water heater, you eliminate any problems with those systems.
The new C-Ranger 25 tugs are beautiful with many MORE optional systems - generator, heat pump, engine water heater, thrusters. The more systems you have added on to whatever boat, the more likely you are to have some problems. This should not be a surprise. The universe, unattended, tends to chaos. Such is life.
Buy only that for which you are willing and able to be responsible!
John
John-
There's a great deal of truth to what you've said. Thank you!
At the same time, there do seem to be a lot more quality control issues recently, and while many or even most of them seem to be with the more complex boats, it does seem disturbing, and one wonders why some of the simpler problems continue to slip through.
We'll just have to see what develops as time progresses. I'll certainly keep your thoughts in mind as we watch for further developments!
Nice talking with you!
Joe.
There's a great deal of truth to what you've said. Thank you!
At the same time, there do seem to be a lot more quality control issues recently, and while many or even most of them seem to be with the more complex boats, it does seem disturbing, and one wonders why some of the simpler problems continue to slip through.
We'll just have to see what develops as time progresses. I'll certainly keep your thoughts in mind as we watch for further developments!
Nice talking with you!
Joe.
Cutty Sark
New member
I have the raised flat floor in the cockpit, and love it. It was the one thing my wife really disliked about the Cdory. She didn't really like the floorboards, and really disliked the dri deck mats that some people use. But she also grew up riding in bayliners :lol: . Seriously, the new floor is great, the height difference is minute, all the fish slime and goo moves towards the back of the cockpit when you wash it down( not under the floorboards or your feet) and it has larger steps on the side. To my eye it looks alot nicer, but that just personal preference. As far as the interior, I also would have liked a molded interior, but thats just me. I dont plan on changing the layout much, and I like the ease of mantenance/cleaning fiberglass, compared to the wood. On a side note what does everyone use to clean the decrawhatever inside? I seem to have trouble getting it really clean, and don't want to scratch it all up. I can see using the wood might be better for some customizing, but I don't think it will change the boat that much. Maybe they can offer either depending on what the customer wants? I wonder what the difference in weight would be, which would be heavier? I also would really like a flat floor inside the cabin. I would gladly give up two inches for that( but I'm only 5' 10"). I see good reasons to do it both ways, but would vote for the update of the interior liner overall.
Sark
Sark
True Story
New member
Well said drjohn71a and thanks for sharing your refreshing perspective! Obviously, your glass is half full. Tim
Day-Dreamer
New member
Several days ago, Jeff promised a full view of the excellent Quality Control Program at C-Dory. I think we ought give him the opportunity present the program before we make too many judgments on the status of quality control at C-Dory.
I don't think it is relivant to the design of the 22, but I disagree with Drjohn's analysis that "Half of Thataway's problems are with flexible, nylon attachments and hose clamps, and caulk seams. The temperature build up in a closed boat in Florida can cycle to nudge 140 degrees. The boat was shipped from a cool, wet climate, thru a hot, dry climate, to a hot, humid climate over 3,000 miles of concrete road." The 22 we owned was stored in Las Vegas for three years (considerably hotter) and trailered over 12,000 miles in the 3 years we owned it and may more miles before we owned it--although it was a far simpler boat--had none of the problems that my 255 has. There are only two or three of the mulitiple problems due to sealants improperly used on nylon fittings--which I doubt are related to travel or temperatures.
Going into the quality control issues of other boats don't belong in this thread.
Going into the quality control issues of other boats don't belong in this thread.
Bob, John, Tim, et al.-
I'm sorry to have brought the equality control over to this thread.
My connection is that design changes are sometimes the result of this chain:
1. the profit motive
2. control of assembly costs
3. assembly process modification
4. design changes to expedite #3
5. change in the quality of the finished product
I'm sorry if it looks as if my glass is half empty.
It's just sad to see so many problems recently.
Joe.
I'm sorry to have brought the equality control over to this thread.
My connection is that design changes are sometimes the result of this chain:
1. the profit motive
2. control of assembly costs
3. assembly process modification
4. design changes to expedite #3
5. change in the quality of the finished product
I'm sorry if it looks as if my glass is half empty.
It's just sad to see so many problems recently.
Joe.
Pat Anderson
New member
Nope. And I sure would like to hear from Jeff Messmer, and Les too.
acgetz":29ulzd1l said:As a follow up, I just noticed that E.Q Harbor Services in Oak Harbor, WA is advertising all of the new 22' cruisers that they have coming in as having "molded interiors". Has the factory said anything about the changes on this site?
A
Anonymous
Guest
If this if factual info, could it be that they are just trying to keep up with the cruisers. Cape Cruisers that is? Mike on Huda Thunkit :?:
Hi all, I don't want to rock the boat here but would like to add some info from the other side. Having had a Cape Cruiser for 5 months now I think I can comment on the molded in liner.
In my opinion it is a great improvement. The cockpit floor is always dry and flat. It makes the cockpit look much more finished and I would guess makes the aft section of the boat more ridged. When stepping from the cabin into the cockpit you can tell there is a slight difference in height, maybe 1.5". But it is definitely not a step up into the cockpit.
The molded in liner does have some drawbacks as have been discussed here, but it also has some advantages. You have a nice molded floor. There are less things that the factory can mess up since they only have to get it right once when they make the mold. The interior is much quieter underway. The interior doesn't creek or moan. I would also guess that the strength of the boat is increased. This added strength may also help eliminate cabin resonations from the engine. I know my boat has none. I can barely here the engine at cruise.
As to quality control issues with C-Dorys I think this will improve with time. They just recently lost half of their long time employees. It will take them time to get the new employees trained properly in the many different aspects of building a boat.
I'm not here to stir the waters. Just thought my opinion might have some value since the CC and CD are so simular.
Bill
In my opinion it is a great improvement. The cockpit floor is always dry and flat. It makes the cockpit look much more finished and I would guess makes the aft section of the boat more ridged. When stepping from the cabin into the cockpit you can tell there is a slight difference in height, maybe 1.5". But it is definitely not a step up into the cockpit.
The molded in liner does have some drawbacks as have been discussed here, but it also has some advantages. You have a nice molded floor. There are less things that the factory can mess up since they only have to get it right once when they make the mold. The interior is much quieter underway. The interior doesn't creek or moan. I would also guess that the strength of the boat is increased. This added strength may also help eliminate cabin resonations from the engine. I know my boat has none. I can barely here the engine at cruise.
As to quality control issues with C-Dorys I think this will improve with time. They just recently lost half of their long time employees. It will take them time to get the new employees trained properly in the many different aspects of building a boat.
I'm not here to stir the waters. Just thought my opinion might have some value since the CC and CD are so simular.
Bill
A
Anonymous
Guest
That's interesting, I was sure they had lost 1/2 their good people the year they made my boat (2004) Mike on Huda Thunkit :lol:
Cutty Sark
New member
It will be interesting to see it at the SBS this year. A quieter ride is a huge plus, at idle my cabin vibrates a bit much for my taste, but so did my palmer and it had a molded interior. I'm not sure if strength is an issue since, I've never heard of a Cdory having problems in that respect, although I'm sure it might add a little. But I would like to see the new interior as to my mind it is an improvement although I know many will disagree. I would love a flat foor inside the cabin. If they do go this route and can retrofit, I would probably go for it.
Sark
Sark