Deck and Docking Lines [braided vs three strand]

J

jstates

New member
Noticed some abrasion on my three strand dock lines [snubbers were on] that developed while at Blake Island this last week in a bit of a wind storm. I used one section of garden hose over line and around the 4x4 dock member to help. I had made all the lines from previous three strand anchor line that was on my boat at time of purchase.

Went to Cabelas and bought braided 3/8" lines - also purchased dock lines at West Marine - twice the price - there is a difference in the fullness and firmness of the line - Cabellas sheath very sloppy and core seemed smaller, compared to the twice as expensive at W Marine.

Having climbed for years where there are lots of climbing rope tests, what are the thoughts about braided vs three strand for the lines you carry with you. I read the WMarine information: braided more abrasion resistant, 3 strand perhaps more stretch per any diameter. I do plan on using braided for my short helm spring line that I use to back off dock due to less chance of catching on something.

I wonder if the spring lines in addition to using a snubber should be three strand due to more stretch and reduced instant load at either end. Are most folks with 22 using 3/8"?

If this has been discussed please point me to the links that I couldn't find in search for the last 45 minutes.

Thanks

Jim


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Jim,

I used one section of garden hose over line and around the 4x4 dock member to help.
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Sounds like a good idea to me.

I use 1/2 inch braided for spring lines and 5/8" braided WM lines for bow and stern docking line. Occasionally will pick up a sliver off the bull rails, so watch for that. My experience (IMHO) I don't think there is enough difference in stretch with the 3 strand, (and it is much more finicky about how it lays), to make it worth the hastle, (much more stiff and seems to have more twist).

Slight Disclaimer, I have never been stuck where I had serious weather caused abrasion to any of my lines. I generally tie on the downwind side and pretty loose, (boat is 12 - 18 inches of the dock) to allow more rock without rubbing on the fenders.

My $.02 worth, and it's only worth that if you want it.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
jstates-

Most of my dock lines are used only for very short tie up periods, or are for long term use in my berth, so keep that in mind in reading what follows.

My personal preference is to use large diameter, 1/2" high quality three strand in my own homemade pre-assembled loop-ended dock lines and rope sections, but I also have some double braided lines as well, primarily used for shorter tie up periods, in 7/16" and 1/2" diameters.

I like the elastic nylon three strand for it's shock absorbtion qualities, and simply use large diameters to deal with abrasion, and wrap them around or through cleats, posts, and the like as necessary to distribute the chafe potential from friction. I think the knots you tie in some of the more unusual arrangements and the extra loops employed help vastly with controlling abrasion and load distribution. I have no set rules or knot types to use, but like to be creative and invent as necessary to fill the situational requirements. I also like to err on the side of have too many dock lines holding the boat, rather than too few.

There is a big difference in line quality, especially within the three strand nylon lines, as some are very scantily and cheaply made, loosely braided, and poorly finished. Watch out for the ebay and internet specials!

I use only the highest quality Sampson, Yale, New England Ropes, or the equivalent lines for mooring and anchor lines on my boat.

The somewhat less stretchy double braided nylon lines will have their uses and proponents, and in a permanent tie situation, such as a marina slip, if a spring line seems to have too much give to it using a three strand line, a double braided line would be a logical choice.

I even use some much lower stretch Dacron lines left over from my sailing days for launching boats and tying up to gas docks and the like for very short and closely attended periods simply because I have them available and because they handle so easily, even though their shock absorbtion characteristics definitely do not suit them to long term tie-up use.

Experience is a great teacher, here, and you'll become much more comfortable with using the various types of ropes over time.

When using 3 strand lines, be sure to melt the ends together, sew them together tightly, then whip them with whipping line, and finally, dip them in a liquid plastic rope whipping compound.

My 2¢.

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Sea Wolf":3ojp9o30 said:
....
Experience is a great teacher, here, and you'll become much more comfortable with using the various types of ropes over time.

.....
Joe. :teeth :thup
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I second this comment. The name of the game with any lines is to pay attention to them. I exclusively use three-strand nylon (on Napoleon and on all commercial vessels) and I have had no problems.

As a related anecdote, the placement of my bow cleats is such that on a mooring the pennant lines with rub against the (sharp) edge of the anchor as the wind changes direction. I first tried the classic leather as a chafe protector (sewn onto the line) and it wore through in a week! I then switched to the Taylor polyester chafe gear (also sewn onto the line) and it held up for the rest of the season.

While it certainly can with enough force, your line will not likely come apart from force but chafe of course. Carefully track any possible source of chafe and address it and your lines should be good for a long time.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

It was a very interesting experience at Blake Island last week with the wind from behind and blowing me off the dock just slightly. The snubbers were really stretching fore and aft with the big gusts it was fun to get out in the storm and watch the rope dynamics up close & adjust the knots so the lines had the least abrasion.

A friend of mine who is an experienced boater with a 30 foot aluminum ?HarborCraft life boat told me that his boat wore through a snubber and spring line at the docks on Lake Roosevelt. Apparently they have some 60 mph winds.

Thanks again

Jim
 
With many years' experience and a number of loosened fittings, I almost always use extra heavy, three strand lines. I always use extra lines, spring lines, and backup when leaving the boat alone. I am often teased about having 6 to eight lines off my boat when leaving it in the slip. None are tied tightly, but between them all, a gentle reliable control is maintained.

John
 
drjohn71a":1g3ex3cs said:
With many years' experience and a number of loosened fittings, I almost always use extra heavy, three strand lines. I always use extra lines, spring lines, and backup when leaving the boat alone. I am often teased about having 6 to eight lines off my boat when leaving it in the slip. None are tied tightly, but between them all, a gentle reliable control is maintained.

John
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DITTO!!!

:thup :thup :thup

Joe :teeth
 
drjohn71a":2ts5jc01 said:
I almost always use extra heavy, three strand lines. I always use extra lines, spring lines, and backup when leaving the boat alone. I am often teased about having 6 to eight lines off my boat when leaving it in the slip. None are tied tightly, but between them all, a gentle reliable control is maintained.
John
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In our Boat Christening Ceremony the following quote...."We have crafted vessels to carry us and we have called them by name. These ships will nurture and care for us through perilous seas, and so we affectionately call them "she"....".

That being said, we like to be certain our ladies are properly/adequately tied up and secured..... :roll:
 
Dr John

Your statement: None are tied tightly, but between them all, a gentle reliable control is maintained - it sounds like the advice our clinic might provide to the parents of a teen. Freedom to move but not enough freedom to sink the ship.

Jim
 
We have generally used 3 strand (good quality) lines for our larger vessels permently in slips. In the smaller boats we use mostly double braid, since they "hand" better. We color code the lines--green stb spring, red port spring, black stern, gold foreward etc. This makes it easier for novices aboard to handle lines.


As long as you use proper chafing gear and secure lines properly, chafe should not be a problem. In heavy weather we will use light lines for their spring, and back them with heavier lines, with a little more slack--so than when the light lines are stretching, the heavier lines come tight.
 
Is it wise to add another cleat at the junction of the back of the cabin and cockpit on the 22 so as to have more attachment points?
Jim
 
jstates":1qa0z5ur said:
Is it wise to add another cleat at the junction of the back of the cabin and cockpit on the 22 so as to have more attachment points?
Jim
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Jim-

Yes!

Great idea for a addition!

A four inch cleat fits perfectly on the raised section designed to divert water from entering the cockpit on my '87 Cruiser.

Later models may have a somewhat different gunnel shape at this point, but the idea is still a very good one!

It's an extra point to attach mooring lines, as well as another fender.

In the photo below, the split or doubled bowline is stored on each side of the boat by cleating it to this cleat while underway. (If you add this "always ready" bowline or "painter" (sailor's term), be sure to make it short enough that it cannot reach back into the motor's propeller if it accidently falls overboard.)

I'd limit it to a four inch cleat, but it could be larger if moved forward a little, alongside the cabin. Wouldn't want it catching on everything at random!

Joe. :teeth :thup

IM003161.jpg
 
Joe on Sea Wolf,
It appears that the bowline (or painter) gets higher over the side deck as it moves forward and out of the photo's frame. What is the line's path toward the bow? Is there more hardware forward?
 
Lucky Day":2w1xkgr7 said:
Joe on Sea Wolf,
It appears that the bowline (or painter) gets higher over the side deck as it moves forward and out of the photo's frame. What is the line's path toward the bow? Is there more hardware forward?
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No, no more hardware forward that it's cleated to, or leads through.

It just lies inside the more forward cleat, and then bends around the trunk on top of the v-berth , then is tied to the center bow cleat.

It's just tight in the photo, and not lying down on the gunnel.

Thanks for asking!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
What we've done on our TC255, so as not to take up deck space just where you step out of the cockpit to go forward along the side deck, is to put a cam cleat on the cabin SIDE to hold the line. This seems to work well and can be taken out very quickly without untying it from a cleat.

Each to his/her own!! :lol:

Charlie
 
For temporany mooring and aft fenders on the 25 we use the cockpit railings as an attatchment point. I have a bit of an adversion to cleats on the narrow side decks. I use pad eyes that fold down for fenders and deck attatchments of lines right outside of the cabin windows.
 
Speaking of cleats, I found it extremely useful to mount bow cleats on the Tomcat for anchoring and mooring. Otherwise lines to the large center cleat behind the windlass will place force on the windlass and chafe on the edges and rails.
 
"Speaking of cleats, I found it extremely useful to mount bow cleats on the Tomcat for anchoring and mooring. Otherwise lines to the large center cleat behind the windlass will place force on the windlass and chafe on the edges and rails."
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Have only seen this at the Seattle Boat Show, a device called a "chocleate" Like a cleat but with the center section of the cleat bar cut out so that it would work like a chock for use in that exact location/purpose. Stainless, and 3 sizes, but I didn't bite, too new, now I'm going back and looking for that specifically. Dual purpose, and extra sturdy, (especially if properly backed), would be great if ever needing a tow (think tow bridle).

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Jim-
I use the cam cleats to keep our forward lines clear in the cockpit.
They are double braid, 1/2" [gold] to the bow and 3/8" [blue]for all others.

There are some pixs in the Sea Angel album with the layout.

I like the idea of adding other colored lines for added specific locations
and will checkout how this will play in my situation.

I prefer the braid lines for their smoothness in handling and less
likely to 'kink'. They also seem to wear better on rough pillings.

I do have the 3-strand twist lines, which I setup for tow
harnesses. I find it easier to splice than the braid and it will
stretch more for this purpose.

Art
 
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