Converting water heater tank to diesel fuel tank for heater?
- Thread starter pwsuser
- Start date
Although the water tank is 6 gallons, it is close to 10 gallons of space occupied. I don't know how large a tank you want. We spent a month in SE,AK with a 25, and used about two gallons of diesel--that was for a Wallas, so it would use a little less fuel than the Espar. Looking at the Espar manual, it will use about .05 gallon an hour putting out about 5,000 BTU--or in 20 hours about one gallon.--my guess is you will probably use less than half a gallon a day, unless you are in true arctic winter conditions. In the summer, probably a gallon will last a week or more.
I agree with Roger, that I would not use the water tank for diesel. There are a host of reasons. The water tank is made to be pressurized, and is a flow thru tank. It has a drain on the bottom, as well as a pressure relieve valve. Also there is the electric heater, which screws into the side of the tank, plus an anode.
A proper fuel tank would have a dip tube which enters from the top and then pulls thru this tube from the bottom of the tank. It is not a good idea to have any fuel tank with the discharge from the bottom.
How about the use of the area where the water tank was for the space to place a fuel tank? Looking at the Espar manual to see how long a fuel hose is recommended I see several issues. One is that there needs to be a slope between the fuel tank / pump and the heater of no less than 15 degrees. (Preferable 15 to 35 degrees. The distance from top of tank pick up (note top of tank!) to the pump, with rubber/plastic/rubber, is 6' 6", if you have all rubber it is only 2'. The reason it is less is because this is a metering piston pump, and the construction of the wall of the tubing is more elastic with rubber hose. The distance from the pump to the tank can be up to 20 feet. You could not run the line from one side of the cabin to the other, since this would entail a level or down slope run of the fuel supply tubing.
Espar installation manual trick/RV
http://www.esparofmichigan.com/cmsAdmin ... tronic.pdf
Marine:
http://www.esparofmichigan.com/techsupp ... manual.pdf
A great project. Let us know how it turns out.
I agree with Roger, that I would not use the water tank for diesel. There are a host of reasons. The water tank is made to be pressurized, and is a flow thru tank. It has a drain on the bottom, as well as a pressure relieve valve. Also there is the electric heater, which screws into the side of the tank, plus an anode.
A proper fuel tank would have a dip tube which enters from the top and then pulls thru this tube from the bottom of the tank. It is not a good idea to have any fuel tank with the discharge from the bottom.
How about the use of the area where the water tank was for the space to place a fuel tank? Looking at the Espar manual to see how long a fuel hose is recommended I see several issues. One is that there needs to be a slope between the fuel tank / pump and the heater of no less than 15 degrees. (Preferable 15 to 35 degrees. The distance from top of tank pick up (note top of tank!) to the pump, with rubber/plastic/rubber, is 6' 6", if you have all rubber it is only 2'. The reason it is less is because this is a metering piston pump, and the construction of the wall of the tubing is more elastic with rubber hose. The distance from the pump to the tank can be up to 20 feet. You could not run the line from one side of the cabin to the other, since this would entail a level or down slope run of the fuel supply tubing.
In my 255 the hot water tank was under the aft dinette settee. I don't think I would want to put the heater there. The issue, might be the exhaust--you want it well above water line and both the exhaust and air intake are on the bottom of the heater. Look at the dynamics of air flow which you will want, as well as proper clearances, for the heater and exhaust. Also best use of space in the boat for storage etc. Consider all before you start cutting and installing.
Espar installation manual trick/RV
http://www.esparofmichigan.com/cmsAdmin ... tronic.pdf
Marine:
http://www.esparofmichigan.com/techsupp ... manual.pdf
A great project. Let us know how it turns out.
Marco Flamingo
Active member
I just installed a D2 (pictures in my file). I bought a special fancy wall mounted fuel tank that I have since sold on Ebay. The one that I ended up using is over 2 gallons, CARB and EPA compliant, and cost $15. I bought two extra caps for it. One is modified to fit the Espar fuel pickup and the other I left original in case I needed to seal up the tank. If I find out that I need more capacity on board, I'll buy another $15 tank. I don't think that will happen because I'll be at the fuel dock for gas often enough.
I don't think that I burned 20 gallons a year in a bigger heater when I lived on board my old boat. I'm not sure that you need to lug around that much diesel for a D2.
Mark
I don't think that I burned 20 gallons a year in a bigger heater when I lived on board my old boat. I'm not sure that you need to lug around that much diesel for a D2.
Mark
colbysmith
Active member
Mark, I just finished looking at all your photos on your heater install. Looks like a great job. 2 questions for you. First, why did you feel the need for a muffler? I recently installed a Webasto heater, but did so without a muffler, and it works great. I don't really think it is very noisy either, inside or outside. (I'm impressed with your fabricated muffler though, and wonder how exactly you made it?) My second question, which is really more of a comment; Is it wise to put the kerosene tank in with the batteries? Colby
T.R. Bauer
New member
Colby,
My friend has a D2 in an old classic K5 blazer and it rather obnoxious when compared to the nothing noise a wallas makes or even the sound of a suburban propane furnace on my motorhome. It honestly sounds like a jet - sort of. There is never a question when it is on and I have no idea what makes his D2 so dang loud. Maybe they all are???
Tim
My friend has a D2 in an old classic K5 blazer and it rather obnoxious when compared to the nothing noise a wallas makes or even the sound of a suburban propane furnace on my motorhome. It honestly sounds like a jet - sort of. There is never a question when it is on and I have no idea what makes his D2 so dang loud. Maybe they all are???
Tim
colbysmith
Active member
Tim, could just be my hearing, but my Webasto, while it does make some noise, isn't anything that would keep me awake at night. Nor does it seem that loud just outside the exhaust port. Of course a quiet night on a lake might sound differently. (I have not had the opportunity for that kind of use yet.) Colby
Marco Flamingo
Active member
Colby,
I bought the first muffler as part of the install based on what I had read. The D2 has a welding torch sound. Most didn't complain about their own heaters, but rather, the heaters used by others. So I wanted a muffler to calm that down. I've only run it while sitting on the trailer in the garage, but I had to go over to that side of the boat to hear it.
The muffler is 1/2 copper pipe going through a section of 1.5" pipe that is capped on both ends. The caps have 1/2 inch holes cut in them. The 1/2" pipe is put through one hole, the larger pipe is filled with fiberglass, and the other cap is soldered on. The 1/2" pipe going though the center has lots of little holes drilled in it. It deadens percussive sounds best, but works well even with the blow torch sound of the heater. Another big plus was using up stuff in my scrap pile.
Kerosene doesn't produce explosive fumes. And it's actually kind of hard to ignite compared to gasoline. Kerosene next to batteries is considerably less dangerous than having gasoline anywhere on board, especially if there are batteries, motors, and an electrical system. So we've already got the really dangerous stuff on board!
My gas tank, which is 4 feet away, is a much greater concern.
Mark
I bought the first muffler as part of the install based on what I had read. The D2 has a welding torch sound. Most didn't complain about their own heaters, but rather, the heaters used by others. So I wanted a muffler to calm that down. I've only run it while sitting on the trailer in the garage, but I had to go over to that side of the boat to hear it.
The muffler is 1/2 copper pipe going through a section of 1.5" pipe that is capped on both ends. The caps have 1/2 inch holes cut in them. The 1/2" pipe is put through one hole, the larger pipe is filled with fiberglass, and the other cap is soldered on. The 1/2" pipe going though the center has lots of little holes drilled in it. It deadens percussive sounds best, but works well even with the blow torch sound of the heater. Another big plus was using up stuff in my scrap pile.
Kerosene doesn't produce explosive fumes. And it's actually kind of hard to ignite compared to gasoline. Kerosene next to batteries is considerably less dangerous than having gasoline anywhere on board, especially if there are batteries, motors, and an electrical system. So we've already got the really dangerous stuff on board!
My gas tank, which is 4 feet away, is a much greater concern.
Mark
colbysmith
Active member
Thanks for the reply Mark. I know diesel has a much higher flash point, but thought kerosene was a little bit more like gas. Although I guess Kerosene is closer in composition to diesel....
I'm using a flexible exhaust line. If I wanted to make a muffler for that, would it work the same as the copper line you have? (I'm assuming you have copper the entire length. I haven't gone back to look at your photos again.) Colby
I'm using a flexible exhaust line. If I wanted to make a muffler for that, would it work the same as the copper line you have? (I'm assuming you have copper the entire length. I haven't gone back to look at your photos again.) Colby
gulfcoast john
New member
Dave,
The water heater is the most useless thing on a 255. If you have shorepower, you have a Marina with decent hot water showers. remove the water heater and size bolts to plug the various hoses with SS ASUS hose clamps to seal them. Sell it for $60.
I agree forget using a water heater for diesel storage... that is nuts.
After removal you will have a lot of space and a 110v leg to boot. Consider a freezer, inverter, etc. + diesel heater.
Cheers!
John
The water heater is the most useless thing on a 255. If you have shorepower, you have a Marina with decent hot water showers. remove the water heater and size bolts to plug the various hoses with SS ASUS hose clamps to seal them. Sell it for $60.
I agree forget using a water heater for diesel storage... that is nuts.
After removal you will have a lot of space and a 110v leg to boot. Consider a freezer, inverter, etc. + diesel heater.
Cheers!
John
Marco Flamingo
Active member
Colby,
I'm also using the flexible SS exhaust line on both sides of the muffler. You can see a little bit of it attached to the muffler in the picture. It fits perfectly over the 3/4 inch copper pipe (I misspoke earlier and called it 1/2"). The first thing that attracted me to the 3/4" copper pipe was that I needed to make a quick 90 degree bend right below my heater. I was afraid that the SS line would collapse. A standard 3/4 copper el was perfect. They sell purpose-made stainless exhaust els for about $20, but a $2 copper el worked fine. The idea of building a muffler came later when I found that the one I had purchased wasn't going to do the job.
I wish that I would have purchased more fiberglass lagging and put it in during the install. I could use a second layer for added confidence and it will be more difficult to put it in now. I bought a "kit" that came with stainless zip ties and now I can't find the Ebay seller again.
The exhaust gets quite hot through one layer of lagging (actually two layers the way it is overlapped when wrapped on). Nothing is touching it, so that's fine, but if something did, it is hot enough to melt plastic or fiberglass resin even through the lagging. More lagging is on my to do list.
Mark
I'm also using the flexible SS exhaust line on both sides of the muffler. You can see a little bit of it attached to the muffler in the picture. It fits perfectly over the 3/4 inch copper pipe (I misspoke earlier and called it 1/2"). The first thing that attracted me to the 3/4" copper pipe was that I needed to make a quick 90 degree bend right below my heater. I was afraid that the SS line would collapse. A standard 3/4 copper el was perfect. They sell purpose-made stainless exhaust els for about $20, but a $2 copper el worked fine. The idea of building a muffler came later when I found that the one I had purchased wasn't going to do the job.
I wish that I would have purchased more fiberglass lagging and put it in during the install. I could use a second layer for added confidence and it will be more difficult to put it in now. I bought a "kit" that came with stainless zip ties and now I can't find the Ebay seller again.
The exhaust gets quite hot through one layer of lagging (actually two layers the way it is overlapped when wrapped on). Nothing is touching it, so that's fine, but if something did, it is hot enough to melt plastic or fiberglass resin even through the lagging. More lagging is on my to do list.
Mark
Marco Flamingo
Active member
Found the seller and bought another piece of lagging.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTREME-HEAT-RA ... cP&vxp=mtr
Mark
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTREME-HEAT-RA ... cP&vxp=mtr
Mark
colbysmith
Active member
Mark, I'm surprised with your complaint about the heat. I just have the one layer of Fiberglass exhaust covering that came with the kit. While it gets warm with use, it's not at all hot to the touch. I've double checked several times with the heater working long enuf on a 25 degree day to keep the boat around 60 in the cabin. I did pay more attention to the noise outside the exhaust port yesterday as I was running the heater and working in the cabin. (This is on the trailer parked on my snow covered yard.) I suspect it might be a bit noticeable for anyone docked up close next to me on the water, with thin bulkheads. Guess I'll find out at Hontoon during the St. Johns River gathering if it's worthy of worrying about it. :wink: I might still consider making a muffler however, seeing yours. What kind of fiberglass did you stuff in that outer piping? Would just the normal autobody repair stuff work? Colby
P.s., ok just looked at your link. The "boot" or "sock" that I got for wrapping my exhaust tube is very thick. Much thicker than what's in the photo at your link. You can probably see it in the photos of my heater install at Midnight Flyer's photo album here.
P.s., ok just looked at your link. The "boot" or "sock" that I got for wrapping my exhaust tube is very thick. Much thicker than what's in the photo at your link. You can probably see it in the photos of my heater install at Midnight Flyer's photo album here.
Marco Flamingo
Active member
Colby,
Just saw your question about the fiberglass. I soldered on one end cap (with a 3/4" hole cut in it) on to the larger outer tube. I slid that over the 3/4" inner tube that had maybe 30 holes drilled into it. I then soldered inner and outer together. Then I went up to the attic and stripped off some pink fiberglass insulation. I pushed pieces of that into the tube until it was stuffed full. Then I soldered on the other cap end to inner and outer tube.
I did my first sea trial yesterday with my new fuel tank placement, new battery location, new 4 blade prop, etc. I also ran the Espar (even though I don't have my canvas back on yet). The fan and the fuel pump "click" are fairly quiet (can't hear them at all with the engine running above idle), but the exhaust is even quieter. Most noticeable thing about the exhaust was a little puff of steam when it re-starts.
The Espar is noisiest at startup, apparently it always starts at full tilt and then settles down. Even with no canvas on the back, it could sense that the cabin was getting warmer and it would cut back to half speed. It puts out so much heat that I took my jacket off while running some tests.
I didn't check to see how much fuel the Espar used. I was too busy watching my fancy new engine fuel management system. I went through 2.4 gallons of gas (or so it says).
Mark
Just saw your question about the fiberglass. I soldered on one end cap (with a 3/4" hole cut in it) on to the larger outer tube. I slid that over the 3/4" inner tube that had maybe 30 holes drilled into it. I then soldered inner and outer together. Then I went up to the attic and stripped off some pink fiberglass insulation. I pushed pieces of that into the tube until it was stuffed full. Then I soldered on the other cap end to inner and outer tube.
I did my first sea trial yesterday with my new fuel tank placement, new battery location, new 4 blade prop, etc. I also ran the Espar (even though I don't have my canvas back on yet). The fan and the fuel pump "click" are fairly quiet (can't hear them at all with the engine running above idle), but the exhaust is even quieter. Most noticeable thing about the exhaust was a little puff of steam when it re-starts.
The Espar is noisiest at startup, apparently it always starts at full tilt and then settles down. Even with no canvas on the back, it could sense that the cabin was getting warmer and it would cut back to half speed. It puts out so much heat that I took my jacket off while running some tests.
I didn't check to see how much fuel the Espar used. I was too busy watching my fancy new engine fuel management system. I went through 2.4 gallons of gas (or so it says).
Mark
colbysmith
Active member
Thanks Mark. I'm surprised you could just use regular old attic insulation. ;-) If I get around to making a muffler, I might use some of the fiberglass that was inside the exhaust sock I had left over. Colby