Charging issues

[Donald Tyson]

Thanks Tom, I agree, Yes, I want to replace them all. They're all from 2017. Then if he wants to diagnose further he will know that it's not the batteries. Now that I have seen this I bet it was the batteries all along because everything was fine at Hontoon. 6-7 months can make a diff. As John Highsmith mentioned the fridge...Just to be sure... I'll have the tech run me through the sequence for using the fridge without draining the starting batteries. Replacing the Batteries should also assure that the connections are all good as well.

First of all: if your battery is fully charged and only reading 12.08 V you need to replace the batteries. A fully charged Lead Acid battery (AGM or Flooded) should be reading 12.6-12.8 V when fully charged, and with no load on it.
Also, if the voltage at your inverter (battery end) is reading less than the battery when it is not in use, the voltage drop is not a result of the wires, but rather a poor connection (most likely corrosion).

 

[thataway]

Replacing the Batteries should also assure that the connections are all good as well.

Unfortunately not true. It will only make sure that the new connections to the batterys are "clean". The cable may be corroded inside the jacket. There are multiple points of failure--each time there is a crimp connection and ring terminal. This inclused. fuse blocks, ground and positive distribution blocks, fuses and circuit breaker--in other word every connection on a boat is suspect. At some point boats used in salt water need to be rewired. Doing that can often bring circuits up to date, and often decrease the number of potential points of failures. There are anticorrosion sprays which help to prevent future corrosion.

 

[Tom Hruby]

Also, always use "marine" rated wires. That is tin coated copper. Never use aluminum, copper coated aluminum, or just plain copper. After 29 years of going electric I know from experience that any of the latter will eventually corrode (even plain copper). In my first electric boat I tried to save money by using 6 gauge pure copper jumper cables and later 2 gauge welding wire, but all of these ended corroding inside the plastic jackets. The wires were corroded over the entire 15 ft of their length.

So, in addition to checking all the connections as suggested by Bob, you will need to make sure the proper wire was used.

 

[Donald Tyson]

Yes, One by one we will check. Thanks for mentioning the need for caution.

So, in addition to checking all the connections as suggested by Bob, you will need to make sure the proper wire was used.[/quote]

 

[Donald Tyson]

Sometimes I trap myself by making assumptions and not following them up with questions , huh, imagine that, me not asking questions!. When I bought this boat, I merely assumed that the solar panel worked to keep all batteries topped off. As it turns out, I now have learned that it is only hooked up to the port starting battery.
I drop this boat off at a local dealer today and he's going to look for a way to have the solar panel top off all batteries and keep everything fresh. Maybe way too expensive I don't know. He first has to find out what the potential is for the solar panel. It may only be good for one or two banks.
He will start by replacing all the batteries and then tracing and checking all the wiring. One of the things that he commented on was that all of my accessories are hooked to the starting batteries and not the house batteries. He may make some changes on that...

 

[Tom Hruby]

Check the wattage of the solar panel. If you can't get at the label assume the maximum is about 20 watts/square foot. If the panel is flat, and not facing the sun at 90 degrees and your boat is moving in different compass directions, the actual value is much lower. Here in the Pacific Northwest I have found that on bright sunny days my average between 10 and 4 is 65% of the rated capacity. So a 100 watt panel will produce only 65 watts x 6 hrs = 0.39 kWh/day.

On my 22 ft cruiser I was only able to put on only 12 square feet of panels (together they are rated at 260 watts), and I had to search far and wide to find some that filled almost the entire cabin top. At most I get only about 1kWhr of energy per day. This will not even recharge my house battery to account for the drain of the fridge.

So if you want to be able to shunt power from the panels to either the house battery or starting battery I suggest a simple switch. It does not make sense to try and charge both batteries at the same time from solar.

 

[Donald Tyson]

Tom you speak clearly on these matters, thank you. I'll check these panels out when I get the boat back or when I hear from the technicians that are looking that stuff up tomorrow. I have only one panel and it seems to be about 10 square ft. Without going online I have now idea what one kWhr is worth in terms of storage. But it seems that it isn't much. My area of PA is better than much of WA for solar efficiency. But still it is not Tulsa. I wonder if a suitcase gen wouldn't work more efficiently to charge batteries? That way I'd have the use of my roof back for dinghy storage..

 

[ssobol]

If the solar panel is more than a couple of years old, you might want to look into installing a newer one. Prices are down, technology has improved, and can solar panels degrade over time.

 

[Tom Hruby]

Don, 1 kWh of storage can be a lot or little depending on your power use. As a starting point a 12 V 100AH battery stores a maximum of 1.2 kWh of energy (12 V x 100 A = 1.2 kWh). However, a 12V High end lead acid battery only stores about 0.7 kWh of energy because they should not be drained below about 60% of capacity without seriously affecting their longevity. This is for the more expensive lead acid batteries. The less expensive ones have a limit of 50% of capacity. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries on the other hand can be taken down to 10% of their capacity without affecting their longevity.

I have been giving presentations on electric propulsion at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival for several years and have collected some fun information.
1 kWh of energy stored is equal to the energy stored in:
3/4 of a loaf of bread
2.7 oz of gasoline

What can you do with 1kWh of energy:
Toast 89 slice of toast
Run a modern kitchen fridge for 20 hours
brew 12 pots of coffee

AND on a boat:
Run a small portable fridge that draws 5 A for about 2 days
Run your cabin lights and running lights also for about 2 days if you have LEDs.
run my C-Dory for 2.5 miles at 5 mph

So if you have a solar panel, it can be used to supplement your house battery, and if the sun cooperates even keep it topped off. Since your starting battery is usually connected to the alternator on your motor, the motor should be adequate to keep it charged up.

Regarding a back up generator:
It all depends on how much time you spend motoring relative to anchoring and whether your outboard has a stator or alternator. In either case the output is about 25-40 amps depending on the motor size. So at 12V and 30 Amps it puts out 360 watts/hour (0.36 kWh). To get 1 kWh into the battery will require you to run the outboard for almost 3 hours.

 

[thataway]

My experience is that running a full day; usually 6 to 8 hours, with the Honda 150 on paper putting out 44 amps max., and limiting the FeLiPO4 charge rate to 30 amps per hours, (the engine, and other house loads are available to be charged with the 14 amps "left over" is ample to keep the two 100 amp hour Li batteries, running the freezer/refrigerator, and inverter to use indction stove and microwave.

 

[Donald Tyson]

I'll digest these comments on Wednesday. Seems like the solar panel isn't so bad but it is not wired into the banks but just clipped with alligator clips (I'm slowly learning what I'm looking at.
They found that a GFCI is bad. None of the 110V outlets work. All accessories are hooked to the main starting battery.

Tomorrow

 

[Donald Tyson]

Yes! Solar products have really changed over the years

If the solar panel is more than a couple of years old, you might want to look into installing a newer one. Prices are down, technology has improved, and can solar panels degrade over time.

 

[Donald Tyson]

Tom, If this doesn't cost me my marriage I don't know what will. I've used up all the bread by toasting it. I used up all the gasoline and blew through 13 pots of coffee and I still don't have a boat.
Seriously when they get it back to me later in week I will return to this topic.

Bob,
I'll look into the twin forties and the find out what their potential is for charging.

So later in week I'll come back to this.

Don, 1 kWh of storage can be a lot or little depending on your power use. As a starting point a 12 V 100AH battery stores a maximum of 1.2 kWh of energy (12 V x 100 A = 1.2 kWh). However, a 12V High end lead acid battery only stores about 0.7 kWh of energy because they should not be drained below about 60% of capacity without seriously affecting their longevity. This is for the more expensive lead acid batteries. The less expensive ones have a limit of 50% of capacity. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries on the other hand can be taken down to 10% of their capacity without affecting their longevity.

I have been giving presentations on electric propulsion at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival for several years and have collected some fun information.
1 kWh of energy stored is equal to the energy stored in:
3/4 of a loaf of bread
2.7 oz of gasoline

What can you do with 1kWh of energy:
Toast 89 slice of toast
Run a modern kitchen fridge for 20 hours
brew 12 pots of coffee

AND on a boat:
Run a small portable fridge that draws 5 A for about 2 days
Run your cabin lights and running lights also for about 2 days if you have LEDs.
run my C-Dory for 2.5 miles at 5 mph

So if you have a solar panel, it can be used to supplement your house battery, and if the sun cooperates even keep it topped off. Since your starting battery is usually connected to the alternator on your motor, the motor should be adequate to keep it charged up.

Regarding a back up generator:
It all depends on how much time you spend motoring relative to anchoring and whether your outboard has a stator or alternator. In either case the output is about 25-40 amps depending on the motor size. So at 12V and 30 Amps it puts out 360 watts/hour (0.36 kWh). To get 1 kWh into the battery will require you to run the outboard for almost 3 hours.

 

[Donald Tyson]

On my 22 there were 4 batteries and 3 were shot. In addition the gfci was shot. All 4 batteries were replaced and the gfci.
So now I need to learn how to turn off the fridge. I have the AC panel turned off, Shore power is not plugged in and the DC inverter in off. So why does my Fridge still run. What the heck...What circuit is there that it still runs once everything is off. I don't obviously know something...
:roll:

So I only need the Inverter when I want to use the house batteries for AC uses?

Does the AC breaker stay on?

What is the big switch for the DC inverter in the battery box? It doesn't seem to turn anything on or off. Does that open the house batteries to the main inverter?

The Panel on the roof is a two bank charger and yet it is only hooked to one battery. I may end up removing that. Then I can get the inflatable up there. The controller is ill defined. I have no idea what it is saying. I need to look it up.

But why is the fridge still working. that is for tomorrow to figure out.

 

[Donald Tyson]

Okay the charger is on and lit up like a Christmas tree and stopped when all batteries were at 14.1 +/-. great.
The DC inverter switch does indeed let juice go to the inverter.
More to come....

 

[thataway]

The refrigerator runs on 12 volts DC and 120 Volts AC. There should be a switch on the 12 volt panel at the helm which turns the refrigator on and off. There is also likely a fuse the for the Refrigerator. It automatically switches to 120 V AC when that is avaliable. It is possible that the refrigerator is also set up on the inverter circut.

I don't know what charger you have and how it is set up, so cannot address that issue. But I would shut it off, unless you have it programed to do an. Equalizer circuit. This is why I always have a voltage and amperage monitor on all of my batteries--I am even putting one on the Caracal Cat as part of completely rewiring the boatl.

 

[colbysmith]

There should be a switch on the 12 volt panel at the helm which turns the refrigator on and off.

On mine there is no switch at the helm. If the main battery switch is on, there is 12vt power to the refrigerator. It is then turned on or off at the refrigerators temperature rheostat on the front upper face of the frig. Colby

 

[ssobol]

There should be a switch on the 12 volt panel at the helm which turns the refrigator on and off.

On mine there is no switch at the helm. If the main battery switch is on, there is 12vt power to the refrigerator. It is then turned on or off at the refrigerators temperature rheostat on the front upper face of the frig. Colby

My 22 is set up the same way as Colby's boat.

 

[robhwa]

There should be a switch on the 12 volt panel at the helm which turns the refrigator on and off.

On mine there is no switch at the helm. If the main battery switch is on, there is 12vt power to the refrigerator. It is then turned on or off at the refrigerators temperature rheostat on the front upper face of the frig. Colby

Here is an easy, inexpensive (relatively) and water resistant way to put a switch in the system without having to run additional wiring to your fuse panel. These inline switch/circuit breakers come in a variety of amps. Make sure and test them before you install. IME, they work well, but an occasional one doesn't trip at the proper amps.

https://www.amazon.com/M1A2-Circuit-Wat ... F0aWM&th=1

 

[Donald Tyson]

Colby and Ssobol, That now seems to be the way mine is set up. For AC it goes through the AC panel. Where the GFI power source is (behind the fridge) the gfi says "for AC shore power only". Does this imply that I should turn the AC breaker off when not hooked up to shore power?
When the AC is off and the shore power is not connected the fridge still runs. even if the battery switches are off. I believe this tells me that the fridge is hot-wired to the batteries as there is no visible switch that turns it off the supply. How can I confirm that it is the House batteries and not the starting batteries?

Bob,
The charger is an older (yellow) Xantrex Trucharge 40+. It is set on Flooded Batts, Bulk/absorsion/float, and medium temp. It can be made to manually (infrequently) Equalize but I'm not sure how that is initiated. I'm just downloading the manual now. All seems good now. Now to go use it.