Cabin condensation

G

Gene Stebbs.

New member
In the construction industry we used to hear the painters talk of "vapor barrior paint" which eliminated the need of a visqueen vapor barrior on the exterior walls prior to putting in the FG insulation, would this/has anyone tried this to reduce cabin condensation on uninsulated C Dory cabins?
 
Gene Stebbs.":2e9v3qpd said:
In the construction industry we used to hear the painters talk of "vapor barrior paint" which eliminated the need of a visqueen vapor barrior on the exterior walls prior to putting in the FG insulation, would this/has anyone tried this to reduce cabin condensation on uninsulated C Dory cabins?
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I haven't heard of anyone using the vapor barrier paint but check out this now 10 year old thread about insulating paint to reduce condensation. Since Ken "pioneered" this in C-Dory's several others have done the same with good results. Yes Ken - you are a pioneer (and as old as some too!) :wink: Crap - I'm old too as I remember this 10 year old post.
 
I don't think vapor barrier paint will help. The condensation is not coming through the cabin walls but being generated from the inside and condensing on the cool/cold surface. The only real solution is to keep the inside surface warmer than the condensation temperature of the inside air (depends on relative humidity). Insulation or internal heating of some sort is required.
 
In the meantime, I can recommend a "The Absorber" cloth for wiping down the walls/ceiling in the morning (check automotive section for them; they come in a plastic tube shaped sort of like a can of three tennis balls). Not as good as preventing it (which I understand is your goal), but makes wipe-down relatively painless.
 
ssobol":2kfpvnrh said:
I don't think vapor barrier paint will help. The condensation is not coming through the cabin walls but being generated from the inside and condensing on the cool/cold surface. The only real solution is to keep the inside surface warmer than the condensation temperature of the inside air (depends on relative humidity). Insulation or internal heating of some sort is required.
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Took the words right out of my mouth. Vapor barrier paint won't help. Boat in a dry climate or make the air dry inside the csbin.

I think Sunbeam has done a major insulation job on the inside of the hull, maybe not on her C-Dory. Tedious, but another sure way to prevent condensation.
 
Thanks, I was doubtfull but curious, I saw some thin insulation materials in an older post I may look into that. I know metal framed windows are a nightmare for condensation the housing industry battled that for years until the plastic/synthetic window frames came out. I had a hard time trying to convince some customers that they did not have a roof leak until I mentioned that it had not rained for two weeks but hey had water running down the widows and walls below the widows, particularly bad in mobile homes. I am just looking atall the issues I may have to deal with and be prepared with answers much in advance of a purchase, thanks again for taking the time to humor amdrespond to my repetitive questions
 
Insulation will help--but you still have to look at surfaces such as the forward hatch or windows. It is always possible to make insulation inserts which fill the hatch, or windows.

We are using back packing pads on the sides of the V berth, as well as under the bunk cushions.

Once one puts in permanent insulation, generally the utilitarian nature of the unlined simple interior. I have seen mold in several of the boats from the factory which have the headliner, and walls lined with the vinyl/foam material.
 
Before anybody gets too excited about insulating paints, you might want to read something like this article.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blo ... homeowners

There are also some FTC cases where paint companies have been sued for fraudulent claims, but this article sets it out. I came across these paints when I built a home a few years ago. Sometimes the claims, like R-10 insulation value, is walked back to mean "R-10 per inch of paint thickness," which the FTC rightly asserts (and the judge finds) to be misleading.

Even still, I'm thinking about applying some insulating paint to my boat now that it's completely torn apart and I wouldn't have to mask very much.

I think that I can make insulating paint cheaper and better than any of the marketed products that I've seen. A gallon of mold inhibiting white paint (like Kilz or Zinsser) is about $25. Mold inhibiting paint is what I want on a boat where condensation is an issue. A half gallon of glass microballoons (the secret ingredient) is about $15. Because the manufacturing of the tiny glass orbs leaves a slight vacuum in the middle, microballoons are often claimed to have magical properties when creating "insulating" paints. Not really magical, but they do have more insulating value than the regular solid particles in paint.

A gallon and a half might be more than I need for the V berth on a CD 16, but thicker is better. It's the "thicker is better" part that limits the effectiveness of paint as an insulator. When you visualize a half gallon of "insulation" (in this case the volume of the microballoons) spread out over the area to be painted, that's not much insulation. But if the purpose isn't to stay warm, but rather to reduce condensation, adding a little R value could be part of a solution.

Mark
 
I painted the interior surfaces of my cd 22 cruiser with 3 coats of HydroTech SC#1000 paint followed by three coats of latex home paint (from HD). While I don't boat in the PNW I found that this treatment may help. In the v-berth area sometimes the walls and roof can feel a bit "clammy" in the morning after an overnight stay, but there is no visible moisture, nor does any come off when the surface is wiped. We have spent overnights on the boat in VA in December.

Sometimes in the main cabin there is a film of condensation (you can see a difference if you swipe your finger) on the roof. This usually happens after cooking with the butane stove or using it to heat the cabin. This goes away by itself and does not require any wiping up.

Whether I am just lucky or this treatment is helpful, I don't know. I did this first thing when I got the boat (based on issues I read about here), so I don't have a before or after comparison.

http://www.hytechsales.com/prodsc.html
 
We have use the SC1000 product in two boats and it really does have a worthwhile effect. The sound deadening properties are significant and I have even tested that with a DB meter. The thermal insulating properties are relatively slight but are enough to nearly eliminate condensation on our interiors for northwest year round use.

Greg
 
Damn Roger, you're making me feel old. This is be nice on the internet day, stop cyber bullying me.

10 years, where do the years go? Concerning the goo I installed and painted over ten years ago- I still like it, it looks good, and it helps. What I like about it is that if you didn't know it had been treated, you would never notice it. I think a bit of insulation and some ventilation really helps with the condensation problem.
 
I may just look for a Venture 26' when the time comes, I really wanted the difference in weight twixt the 25 and 26 to be taken up with extra fuel capacity, but the insulation may be worth the cost difference considering being in SE AK for 5+ months on the water......time will tell I suppose, I will put that on hold for now and find some other issues to bug you guys about.. :) It is my understanding that these boats are lined with foam insulation and covered with marine vinyl, have there been any know cases of any seperation of the components, sagging vinyl, loose foam and such?
 
Gene Stebbs.":1ctyhysp said:
I may just look for a Venture 26' when the time comes, IIt is my understanding that these boats are lined with foam insulation and covered with marine vinyl, have there been any know cases of any seperation of the components, sagging vinyl, loose foam and such?
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I have seen several 26's with both separation of the foam/vinyl, and mold growing on both sides. There are better techniques, (in my opinion) to insulate that the foam vinyl product. If I was spending that much time in AK, I would do it myself, and do it so that there will be no issues.

I used a French product, I got thru Canada, for our boat we used up there for 4 summers, glued (contact cement) on 1/8" plywood panels, and then held in place with battens for the ceiling. This was a closed cell PVC foam, about 1/8" thick, and a textured outer surface. It could be contact cemented over the entire hull/over head for the c Dory.
The below is similar, but not the same:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Closed-Cell-2A- ... WWUrZMMGzA
Ensolite makes some similar 1/8" foams.
For the hull sides, I got 5/8" thick "Fish blanket" which was cheap at the local hardware stores in AK.. I put this against the hull with liquid nails, and then covered the inside surface with a very thin formica type of material, with 3M spray adhesive. Worked very well, no condensation issues, and easy to clean each of these. No delimitation or sagging.

I am sure that there are 26's which are kept in dry environments or stored inside etc, which do not have these issues. I would see what the real difference in weight was--on scales, not from sales brochures. The 26 will ride a bit better in chop.

There are also some neoprene foams, with contact adhesive, (if you can find in light colors, this would be excellent). We did the 38 footer we built with 1/2" Ensolite insulation, a friend had left over from a commercial job. This was contact cement to the bare hull inside, and then a formica type of material used in air liners (Douglas surplus) was contact cemented on th inside. Excellent material. I suspect that Boeing would have the same type of products at their surplus stores.
 
thataway":3tpnfnpg said:
I suspect that Boeing would have the same type of products at their surplus stores.
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Boeing Surplus in Seattle is now closed. I bought some dual-density foam backed "jet" carpet there years ago for a sports car sound proofing project. Great stuff. I remodeled a little kitchen a few years back and spent some time in the remnant area of local flooring dealers. I ended up buying a floating vinyl flooring that was almost identical to the Boeing stuff. It's about 1/8th inch thick foam, very durable and very flexible. It's not usually glued down, but it can be. That might be something to look in to.

Mark
 
Marco Flamingo":3foi213z said:
I think that I can make insulating paint cheaper and better than any of the marketed products that I've seen. A gallon of mold inhibiting white paint (like Kilz or Zinsser) is about $25. Mold inhibiting paint is what I want on a boat where condensation is an issue. A half gallon of glass microballoons (the secret ingredient) is about $15. Because the manufacturing of the tiny glass orbs leaves a slight vacuum in the middle, microballoons are often claimed to have magical properties when creating "insulating" paints. Not really magical, but they do have more insulating value than the regular solid particles in paint.

A gallon and a half might be more than I need for the V berth on a CD 16, but thicker is better. It's the "thicker is better" part that limits the effectiveness of paint as an insulator. When you visualize a half gallon of "insulation" (in this case the volume of the microballoons) spread out over the area to be painted, that's not much insulation. But if the purpose isn't to stay warm, but rather to reduce condensation, adding a little R value could be part of a solution.

Mark
Click to expand...

Hello Mark,

I'm interested in your idea of combining micro balloons with paint. I've got some phenolic micro balloons left from a project...but they are a purplish-brown so would discolor the white paint. I see white glass balloons online which would probably be more appropriate. My question - how much 'balloons' do you think you could get into gallon of paint? When used to thicken epoxy to make fairing compound I don't think one could get 2 qts balloons into ONE gallon paint. It would be TOO THICK wouldn't it? It would be a cheap experiment. Maybe start with a qt of paint and go from there.

Anyway, very interesting idea. Please post back to the board with your results.

dave
 
I have worked with microballoons mixed with epoxy paint, and can not recommend it unless you value your labor very cheaply. The most insulating mix which remains about as flexible as a FG hull is about the consistency of very thick peanut butter, and would need to be troweled on using a grooved squeegee edge to establish and regulate the thickness, followed by a quick layer of the same, squeegeed on to a smooth surface, when the first layer is at the green stage. Then sand the result, after it has fully cured. Apply a coat of your favorite epoxy tolerant paint, with System Three WR-LPU two part paint the easiest and best.

Oh, and prep the original surface with a thorough wash, followed by sanding with 80 grit, so the epoxy will have a good tooth on the hull to grab.
 
AstoriaDave":1a2ix1nw said:
I have worked with microballoons mixed with epoxy paint, and can not recommend it unless you value your labor very cheaply. The most insulating mix which remains about as flexible as a FG hull is about the consistency of very thick peanut butter, and would need to be troweled on using a grooved squeegee edge to establish and regulate the thickness, followed by a quick layer of the same, squeegeed on to a smooth surface, when the first layer is at the green stage. Then sand the result, after it has fully cured. Apply a coat of your favorite epoxy tolerant paint, with System Three WR-LPU two part paint the easiest and best.

Oh, and prep the original surface with a thorough wash, followed by sanding with 80 grit, so the epoxy will have a good tooth on the hull to grab.
Click to expand...

Hello Dave,

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have used the micro balloons in epoxy too but was wondering about putting them into PAINT. Marco postulated that microballoons in paint would be a cheap insulating alternatve to the commercially produced fancy paint options.

Anyway, I wondered how much filler you could add to paint before it gets too thick to apply? (Not using epoxy - in this case.)

dave
 
I think that the limit of adding microballoons would be based on what consistency can be applied. Several posts say that the commercial products can't be brushed, others have had success with brushing. There was a picture in the old post that showed the stir stick after mixing one product. It looked like loose whipped cream just before it can hold a peak. Those who have sprayed it would likely have good descriptions of its consistency and how much/whether it flattens out when applied.

I haven't seen the commercial products, but from what has been posted, microballoons sound like the filler. I don't know of any other filler that would give paint the whipped cream consistency. Whipped cream is entrained air in cream, and that is what microballons would do. Air entrainment is the secret to insulation, especially affordable insulation. I doubt that the commercial products contain some expensive un-obtanium ingredient. Maybe I'm too sceptical.

Unlike balloons with epoxy, the paint/microballoon combination would have a carrier (water or some VOC) that would flash off and leave a dull surface. That sounds like the commercial stuff. The balloons would likely still be able to be crushed, so it would scuff, scratch, and even dent. That sounds like the commercial stuff. More protection could be gained by painting over the paint/microballoons. That sounds like the commercial stuff.

I don't have any microballoons right now, but I do have quite a few half-used cans of latex paint. It could be that the amount of binder in the paint can be thinned (by adding water) to get a consistency that allows the addition of more balloons and still be sprayable. One more project while my boat is in hospital.

Mark
 
The SC 1000 product I have used was quite thick and I did brush it on for my use. The thickness is very whip crème like and limits drips making the product really very nice to work with especially on walls and ceilings.

http://www.hytechsales.com/prodsc.html

The link above mentions the following.
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
SC#1000 is a non-toxic water based sound and vibration absorbing coating blended with sound absorbing pigments and Hy-Tech Ceramic microspheres in a Viscoelastic resin. (Visco-elastic means that a material exhibits elastic and viscous properties allowing for better absorption of shocks.)

SC#1000 combines sound absorption, vibration isolation and vibration damping characteristics.
In addition, SC#1000 is a very effective acoustic damper and absorber. While many materials exhibit one of these characteristics, SC#1000 combines all of them in an easy to apply, non-toxic waterbase coating with a superior damping coefficient, over a very wide temperature range.
A waterborne, high build formula that apply 5 times thicker than regular coatings SC#1000 offers ceramic microsphere insulation and soundproofing combined with excellent adhesion.

Unlike heavy mats which only add mass and lower the intensity of sound doing nothing for vibration, SC#1000 removes noise and unwanted vibrations by converting them into low grade heat and by adding lightweight mass. What happens is the back and forth vibrations, or mechanical energy, are converted to low level thermal energy or heat thereby providing structural resonance and impact noise deterrence, this is "Viscoelastic" conversion. The low level heat is restricted by the hollow ceramic microspheres.
SC# 1000 is made to stop structure borne noises. Use it on noisy machines, metal studs and framing, motor cabinets and housings, vehicle body panels, boats, buses, RV's, airplanes, A/C equipment and ductwork, anywhere that is a major source of noise, vibrations or motion.

I put two heavy coats of Hytech SC-1000 acoustic paint inside our engine cover and used a digital sound meter before and after to see a even 2db sound reduction at planing speeds of 4-5k RPM. I used just under 1 quart for our 75hp Honda 2002 cover and just brushed on each heavy coat in a few minutes.

(80.5 db down to 78.5 now at 4900 as an example)


http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

Greg
 
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